laljeterfan

lajeterfan :F_05BL17blowkiss: Somehow I missed this earlier. I AM in amazement- or confusion- not sure which? Thanks for the laugh! Thank you couchie.

No it doesn't. I never said it does. And I don't feel that by simply pointing out that the lie existed- and in some cases is the jumping off point for the discomfort some of us (or maybe just me- I don't know anymore) have been feeling, is not to judge him for it. It is just to say that the reason this has been difficult to deal with is because I believed in something that was ultimately proven not to be true. I didn't conjure it up out of my own imagination- I believed it because he said it. It takes time (for me, clearly not for everyone) to work through thoughts and feelings about this. I felt happy that even though I was struggling, the overall attitude here was one of acceptance and generosity by most (not all) of the posters. I'm not sure why that seems to have changed overnight, and why I feel like I'm being attacked for it today. Nobody is attacking you. In fact my post wasn't even about you. But now that it is.... I do understand the reasoning - and can even sympathize with it. My question is - what will it take for you to move past it. To forgive him for it. To LET all those other things trump it? Because only you can choose to do that. You can let the 'lie' consume your fandom, or you can at least try to move on from it. Thank you for understanding what I've been trying to say. As I tried to explain last night- I know why he lied- I understand why he lied. In the same situation I probably would have done the same thing. My youngest brother is gay. He didn't come out till several years ago when he was in his mid-thirties. But I didn't understand the assertion that Clay didn't "really" lie. I'm glad that you were all able to put it behing you so quickly and say "so what!" Bravo for you. My discomfort comes from now having to reconcile what my previous beliefs were (based on what he told us) with the reality. Someone (I think it was CG) posted something very profound earlier this week on how difficult that is to do, and I wholeheartedly agreed. I felt like I was doing that. It was never a question of forgiving him or not forgiving him for it- it was saying "Here is where the disconnect started for me, and here is where I am trying to learn to work through it." What will it take to move past it? Time and patience, as I said on the OFC. Going to see him again, which I'll be doing next week. Feeling free to discuss my feelings- which I'm not at the moment. Clay gave us a place to go and vent our feelings at the OFC, and I thank him for it. He also asked that anyone who was struggling be given the leeway to feel what they were feeling without being judged by others. He is a better person than I am.

No it doesn't. I never said it does. And I don't feel that by simply pointing out that the lie existed- and in some cases is the jumping off point for the discomfort some of us (or maybe just me- I don't know anymore) have been feeling, is not to judge him for it. It is just to say that the reason this has been difficult to deal with (for me) is because I believed in something that was ultimately proven not to be true. I didn't conjure it up out of my own imagination- I believed it because he said it. It takes time (for me, clearly not for everyone) to work through thoughts and feelings about this. I felt happy that even though I was struggling, the overall attitude here was one of acceptance and generosity by most (if not all) of the posters. I'm not sure why that seems to have changed overnight, and why I feel like I'm being attacked for it today. I'm not trying to test anyone's patience. I simply have felt that the point I had been trying to make had been misunderstood, and that certain assumptions have been made about what I've been trying to say that have been incorrect. To try to explain myself more clearly seems to have infuriated/aggravated people, and that was not ever my intent. I will gladly end the whole conversation, as long as no one sees fit to refer to me as a bitch for trying to explain myself

Well, since I'm the one who had the issue with the "he wasn't really lying" comments from yesterday, I assume that I am now the "bitch" in question? Man, that really sucks.

I agree. This post said many of the same things I have been thinking, with many of the same reactions I have been having. I thought about asking last night if I could bring the post over, but I figured that was prohibited. (2nd bolded passage in the above post is mine) I know I said last night that I would stop trying to defend myself over this issue, but I guess I lied. I believed what I believed about his orientation because of what he, himself said. Had he refused to answer the question outright, or been vague about it from the beginning, I may have come to a different conclusion far sooner. And when he said that he was done talking about it, and "people will believe what they want to believe", I honestly felt, because of what he had previously said, that he was talking about all of those who "knew" he was gay. What a shock for me to discover he was actually talking about ME! But again- I only believed what he told me- if he had told me from the beginning that he was gay (and yes, I certainly understand why he didn't), I would have had no reason not to believe him. OK, I promise I will TRY not to add my input on this subject ever again. I will be strong!

Thank you- I do understand what you are saying here. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Exactly- lying is a universal thing- we've all done it. It just didn't make sense to me that it shouldn't be considered a lie because of the circumstances- again, going way back to the original post that I quoted. But, since I'm obviously having a hard time making myself understood here, I'll stop trying. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Of course he had the right to answer the question any way he wanted to. Do I understand his reasons for giving the answer he did? Sure. If I was asked questions about my sex life and I didn't want to answer them truthfully, I'd probably lie too. And you know what- that would make me a liar- just like every other human being on this earth. I'm not trying to condemn him, here. The point I'm trying to make, and obviously not doing very well, is that he's not exempt from being called on the lie just because it was to a question that should have never been asked. ETA- Couchie-per your post below- I'm not asking him to do anything. I just didn't get the part of the original post that I quoted that said that somehow it's not a lie because the question was intrusive.

But - any answer but NO would have been instantly construed as yes - so IMO a do-over would only entail not asking the damned question. I don't see a do-over as a luxury, but as, well, intrusive, because no one would have accepted - as we have seen - a refusal to answer as anything but yes. I think Jaymes has just explained precisely how I feel about this, at the OFC. But he did refuse to answer several other questions in the RS interview- the one about whether he was a virgin, and the one about masturbation. And he could have said that he felt the line of questioning was getting entirely too personal- as it definitely was. A refusal to answer may well have led to the perception that the answer was yes, but it wouldn't have been taken as a definitive statement. And I readily admit that I, for one, took his statement in RS to be a definitive one- that he was not gay.

I never felt entitled to an answer to the question, and personally find it incredibly intrusive. But the point is, he answered the question- and the answer he gave was widely accepted by many (most?) in the fandom, and in the long run it turned out not to be the truth. So, even though we may understand the reasons for him giving the answer he did, unless he came to his conclusions about his orientation after those first few interviews, ( and the timeline isn't really set in stone, so who knows?) his words were, in fact, a lie. In hindsight, it would have been better if he had not answered the question at all- but unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of going back in time for a do-over.

play, I was obviously having a hard time dealing with things as well, but I enjoyed Jaymes' post, and didn't have a problem with anything she said. I didn't feel like I was one of the people she was talking about when she made her point, so I took no offense to it. I haven't read the thread, but it sure sounds like there were some there whose postings warranted that response from her. I don't share your objection to the order in which the announcements were made, but I'm trying to understand why it makes a difference to you. I think in a slightly superstitious way, Clay did not want to make any announcements about the baby until he was born safely and healthily. And it appears from his statements that the birth was the catalyst for his decision to come out. I don't see a problem with tying the events togather, but I do think that for Clay, the emphasis is not so much on the coming out aspect as it is on showing his family, and explaining how and why it came to be in such an unconventional way. As one of my friend's wrote to me in an e-mail yesterday, being gay is just a small part of the whole person that he is- it doesn't define him. I hope you can douse those burnt puppies, cause you are always a reasonable and level headed presence on the board, and I would miss reading you. :thbighug-1:

Don't give them an audience?

yep #1 yep #2 yep #3 I can understand that specific sentiment. I find it totally acceptable for some to embrace his sexual orientation, but have issues with Clay's dishonesty with the fandom for five plus years. Clay LIED. I am stating that he lied and doing so without prejudice. Do we really have the desire to go down the homophobic route without justification? I hope not. I hope this fandom finds the road to peace while embracing a calm approach to the struggles of some. yep #4 yep #5 Now, that cracked me up! Thanks to all those I quoted above who did the heavy lifting for me, and said many of the things that I have been thinking and agonizing about. My cousin and I had plans to go to Spam next week. After Tuesday night, we were both seriously considering (separately) not going, as our feelings were too raw. We had appointments scheduled for Wed to get our hair done,which we always do just before going to see Clay, and they called Tues night just after I read the news, to see if we could reschedule. I never got back to them- was in too much of a state. Yesterday my cousin called me at work to say that the salon had called her back and wanted to know if we wanted to come in Thursday. I thought about it for a moment or two then said yes. We had our hair done for Clay tonight. We'll be there next Thursday and Friday to see him. It hasn't been an easy couple of days, but I truly appreciate the generosity of everyone here who was sensitive to my feelings, even if they didn't share them. I guess it's been rolling around in the back of my mind for a while that Clay could be gay, but I was holding on to the hope that he wasn't- because he said so-and I believed him! So, it has been hard to reconcile my beliefs based on what he had said, with the reality. And I confess to having wondered whether "other" things that had been written and said about him in the past might be true as well- and that thought was truly devastating to me. And, yeah, I was also mad because I felt foolish for being wrong, and embarrased about how people would react to me when they heard the news (Cuz it's all about me, after all!) So, hopefully my pity party is over, although I reserve the right to still have moments when I grieve the loss of my dreams for Clay. He's right, you can't dream too specifically for anyone else. It looks like he's doing pretty well for himself without my help. Haven't had a chance to go over to the OFC to read, but I do thank you for pointing out Jaymes' posts. I have always really liked her- felt she got a real raw deal from some of the fans who criticized her when she made previous posts on the board. I think Clay made an extremely wise choice in choosing a mother for his child!

Thank you for this. As apparently the only one here who is struggling with this news, even though it has been in the back of my mind for at least the last couple of years, it is still a painful realization that the things I believed in were not true. I'm glad so many are showing their love and support. I wish I were there, but I'm not yet. I'm sorry, Clay. laljeterfan You aren't the only one that is struggling. I am guessing that most of the fans that are having trouble with this, just haven't posted. I was so upset last night that I was sure anything I said would come out wrong so I said nothing. It is hard, when you see someone in a certain way, to find out that isn't who he is. It takes time. You hang in there and so will I. It has been tough. But after about 2 hours of sleep, and breaking into spontaneous tears about 1/2 dozen times at work today, I'm doing better. Hope you will be too. And if you need to vent privately, feel free to pm me!

Thank you for this. As apparently the only one here who is struggling with this news, even though it has been in the back of my mind for at least the last couple of years, it is still a painful realization that the things I believed in were not true. I'm glad so many are showing their love and support. I wish I were there, but I'm not yet. I'm sorry, Clay.