JennaZ

Thank you all for the warm welcome back! Good to see all those familiar names! Yes, I really did love the concert. It was incredibly entertaining, and far funnier than I expected it to be. I guess I had forgotten how hilarious Clay could be, and I really had no idea Ruben had that in him as well. They really do compliment each other perfectly. It was kind of different watching a concert without knowing everything about it beforehand, but I think that just made the experience that much more refreshing.

I thought I was over him. It’s been a long time since I posted. I’ve drifted away, not because of any ill feelings toward him or the fandom, but because, as clack seemed to trickle to a stop, the craving to check boards daily began to subside. Real life became much more pressing, more absorbing, and before I knew it, I would look up and realize that I hadn’t even thought about Clay in months. I was always still interested. I downloaded “Tried and True” from iTunes. But I didn’t chase down special editions, I didn’t go to any CD release parties, and I didn’t read any reviews or articles. If I happened to catch him on TV, I watched, but if not, I didn’t hunt for downloads. When I heard he had a concert in LA, the city I live in, initially, I had not even planned to go. I thought it was better to save the money, as the urge to see him no longer seemed particularly strong. However, when a friend of mine, a Ruben fan, asked me to go with her, I thought, maybe I should, for her sake. We didn’t even try for the best seats, happy to sit further back in the balcony. I went into this concert without having listened to previous cellcerts or having watched any clack. I’d briefly skimmed the board to get a vague sense of what to expect in terms of theme, but I didn’t really focus on recap details. So what did I think of the show? I was enthralled. Sure, it didn’t have the staging of some of the earlier tours. Yes, the audience wasn’t as vast as it had been at some of the arena shows. True, many of the songs were those I had heard before, but honestly, I think that’s why I loved it. This show reminded me why I was a fan in the first place. When he sang, “This is the Night,” I recalled with fondness, not just his Idol appearance but those early Idol tours. “Still the One” reminded me of those early pre-Idol tracks I had downloaded when I was hungry for anything he sang. Many of the songs, of course, were reminiscent of the Jukebox Tour, and they all brought back to me the power of his voice. And then, there was the banter. I was delighted and impressed by the interaction between the two of them. They were funny and charming, and you could tell that everyone on stage enjoyed and appreciated each other. I’ve always believed in the Clay/Ruben friendship, and I’m happy they’re doing this tour together. When I left the theater, I thought about all the things I’d always loved about him. It made me want to hear his songs again. I don’t know if I’ll ever be as obsessed as I once was, but after this concert, I know I’ll always be a fan.

So true, Muski. There are real problems in the world today, things that affect us each in a very direct and personal way. It always amazes me how some can let "Clay issues" become so important to them. I'm not trying to be insensitive to those who are hurting. Sometimes, it's hard to control how one will react to things. However, I do think it's important to have perspective. Much of the drama in the fandom concerns things which, in the overall scheme of things, to me, don't really seem worth all the emotion. Personally, if I'm going to be depressed about something, it's going to be over things like the current economic crisis and not about whether Clay showed sufficient emotion in an interview. ((Muski)) Times are tough, and I can't blame a good girl like your daughter from being worried. I actually think it's a sign that you're doing something right. If she took a four-year college as an entitlement, that would be a different story. There are a lot of options to explore. Different schools offer different financial packages. You'll make it work.

I agree with you. I do think that it's hard for some fans to accept that Clay is not in the same place as they are emotionally. The revelation about his sexuality seems to have generated strong feelings in some, for whatever reason. They are hurting and do feel betrayed, and even if, intellectually, they can accept his reasons for staying in the closet, emotionally they crave an emotional response from him. And they aren't getting it. And I don't think Clay can give it to him. He's gone through too much to make himself an object of public pity. Besides, he's too happy. I do hope these fans are able to work through their feelings. I do think it's tough when emotions are involved, because sometimes, all the logical arguments in the world don't really help when you're angry or hurt. But I hope they eventually recognize that it's really not about them, that he really does have a good heart, and that he never meant to hurt anyone. He has so much joy to offer them, if they'll only let him.

I have to say, I'm surprised you think it would be difficult to find a woman that age without children. I know so many women in their thirties who would love to get married and have children. The complaint is always that there aren't enough men who are ready to settle down! Thirty-three is still very, very young these days. He has plenty of time to find someone.

It's kind of like a cinnamon sugar cookie. The way I make them, they're slightly crisp on the outside and soft on the inside. Yum!

I just took a batch of Snickerdoodles out of the oven! Wish I could send them over the net.

I don't know if we'll ever know for sure why he never sang "Touch." My guess is, like Couchie's, that it may have been the sexuality of the song more the gender specificity that bothered him, but who knows? One thing Clay has said is that he does not believe himself to be defined by his sexuality, that it is a "small facet" of who he is, which is why I hesitate to evaluate his past artistic choices through a "gay" lens. This is not to say that it was never a factor in his decisions, just that I feel uncomfortable going to that as a primary reason. I don't expect his coming out to affect the types of songs he will sing in the future. I fully expect him to continue to sing love songs. I suspect (though he could surprise me) that he may continue to avoid overt or explicit sexual references -- not because he's gay -- but because he's Southern Baptist. It's possible that living a more open life will free him creatively, or inspire him in other ways. However, I really don't think his revelation will significantly limit him musically. It may make a CCM switch fairly unlikely, but on the whole, I think he'll get much more out of this than he'll lose.

Honestly, I tend to doubt it. If he liked the song, he could have just not said the word "girl" if it that was an issue. Besides, he has sung "girl" in other songs like "My Girl" and "Oh Girl." My guess, personally, is that he didn't like the song for broader reasons. But what do I know? I'm convinced that Clay writes these blogs personally and without consultation with his publicist or manager -- which is one of the reasons I love him.

I hope you enjoy the book, muski. Hugs to you an your family. I'm so glad that Clay posted what he did. I have to say, if some don't have it in their hearts to try and understand his point of view, it's their loss. As I've said, I think there are some who really aren't trying for any kind of peace or acceptance. The vast majority have moved on. Clay does seem happy at the stage door. Thanks for bringing over the photos and recaps.

The blog was per-fect! He put the whole issue in perspective, explained his point of view without apology, and gently but firmly closed the door on the People thread. LOVED it! Happy Birthday liney! Welcome to the board, Clazycoffin!

I understand your frustration, Couchie. There's venting that's therapeutic and which passes, and venting that feeds itself into long-term anger and bitterness. I think Clay wanted the former. I hope he doesn't get the latter. The thing is, some of those venting seem to resent the presence of those who are trying to offer their own point of view. It's as if they think those OFC threads are only for those who are unhappy with Clay. I think "working through one's feelings" should involve listening to those with a different perspective. But some don't seem interested in that. It's almost as if some WANT to be angry, and so they repeat their arguments over and over again in an attempt to keep themselves in a state of self-righteous fury. As I've said before, I do think many fans have been able to work through their feelings. But I think it's mainly those who are actually trying. My sense is that there are some who aren't trying at all. They're hurt, but they don't really want peace; they want others to hurt, too. And perhaps on some level, they want Clay to hurt as well. Let me be clear. This is NOT a blanket statement about all fans who are struggling. I do believe MOST fans genuinely want to find a way to come to terms with Clay. But I do think there are some who, for whatever reason, want to hate him for what he did. They're not listening. And for those people, I'm not sure the OFC thread is really the best thing right now. YMMV. BTW -- Welcome Georgiesmybaby. Thanks for a great post!

I've been reading this book by A.J. Jacobs entitled, "The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest To Live The Bible As Literally As Possible." The writer, a secular Jew, decided to try and follow every single law in the bible, Old and New Testament. Some laws are very esoteric and followed by very few people (i.e., the law against wearing clothes of mixed fibers) and some are much broader ("love they neighbor as thyself"). In his search for meaning, he talks to many, including Hassidic Jews, the Amish, fundamentalist Christians, and people of faith who have very liberal interpretations of scripture. I haven't finished the book yet, but what's interesting is that even the most conservative groups have arguments to justify not following every single law in the Bible. The fact is, the Bible contains many, many statements which are difficult to accept literally. What scripture really means is subject of much debate. FWIW, the book also interviews a group of gay Christians who offer their own interpretation of what passages like, "A man shall not lie with a man as he lies with a woman" really mean. More on this book can be found here. I do understand why some struggle to reconcile certain religious teachings with their own personal feelings. I suspect there are many fans who really want to accept Clay wholeheartedly, but have a lifetime of religious conviction to get past. But you know, perhaps Clay's coming out will help some fans gain a new understanding and respect for homosexuality. I have gay friends who said that their parents were initially very prejudiced when it came to gay people. One friend said her mother begged her not to come out, "because it would kill your father." For a while, her parents would not even talk to her. But the more they realized that she was still the same person, and the more they got to understand her life, the more accepting they became. Now they're tremendously supportive, and they adore her long-time partner. It wasn't easy. As my friend said when I met them, "You don't know how far they've come." But they did it. Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I do hope that this experience will help fans become more tolerant. It may not happen right away. But if you love someone enough (and I do think many of those who struggle still really do love Clay), it can happen.

Muski, I feel your pain. I was a TA at a good liberal arts college, and I was appalled at the quality of some of the writing. I was stunned that so many students were unable to construct a simple, coherent paragraph. My husband is a high school history teacher, and he and his colleagues are being pressured not to give zeros for work that is not turned in. Administrators feel that a zero sinks their gpa's, resulting in too many failures. But why should they get credit for doing nothing! Some of these kids just don't even try. In the real world, if you don't do your work, you suffer consequences. Children need to learn that, but too many administrators just care about graduations.

Heh heh! Those were the days, my friend. The debates over a few words lost! Makes me misty thinking about all those concert memories. How could we ever give those up, just because he happens to be gay? More lyrics, just because they seem so appropriate:

I do kind of understand why Clay wanted to have a place for fans to vent. Some people have to get their anger out before they can move on. However, if there are a lot of angry people venting together, I can't help wonder if it only reinforces their bitterness and resentment. I really do feel for the people who are struggling with their feelings on this. I think there are people who feel a conflict between their religious beliefs and their affection and respect for Clay. I think there are also people who do harbor deep-seated homophobic beliefs, but do love Clay and want to find a way to get past their feelings. And there are those who are still dealing with what they sense as a betrayal. I have seen evidence on various boards that slowly, many of these people have begun to come to terms with Clay's coming out. Not everyone, of course. But quite a few. But there are also some, it seems, who cannot seem to let the anger go. I'll admit, I do worry about them, a bit. Sometimes, the scariest stalkers are embittered ex-fans. Remember Selena? You know, there are some benefits to letting fans vent on the OFC board. Now, Clay has the names of those may seem dangerous. I also think that, at some point, Clay will blog about this to fans. ("We'll talk later.") Maybe that thread allows him to take the temperature of the fandom before formulating his comments. I only hope that he understands that the OFC message board has never been representative of the fandom as a whole. The level of discord and viciousness is at a completely different level than other board. Something about it (not sure if it's the moderating or what) has made it one of the most toxic and least enjoyable places to be, and it has been from the day it was started. And it's such a shame, because it's the one board we knows he reads.

Gosh, Jenna, no disrespect to you at all....but Disney ALLOWS gay people to come to Disneyland on "Gay Day"???? Well, whoop-dee-shit!! Last I saw, it's a free country!! To use a Wanda-ism....fuck them!! Sounds like they created a day to point and sneer! Crap! That made me livid! Or had you guessed? Just to clarify. Gay people are always allowed into the park. "Gay Day" is an event organized by a gay organization in which 40,000-50,000 gay people meet at the theme park, wearing red Gay Day t-shirts. It is NOT a "point and sneer" event. However, the fact that it happens in the park is enough to cause some intolerant conservatives to boycott Disney. As I said, Disney also provides benefits to the domestic partners of gay employees. As far as I know, that does not happen at every company and it's certainly not required by law. I'm not saying Disney is the champion of gay rights. However, I don't think they particularly anti-gay, either. ETA: Or what Claygasm said. Thanks!

I suspect that the tabloids offered money, and are assuming People got it because they paid the most. However, my belief is that Clay and his publicist would rather go with a relatively reputable, mainstream publication than a tabloid, for free. BTW -- I'm impressed that he has PMK working for him. Very powerful firm.

Interesting... From notacanuck at CH:

I think Disney is quite "gay-friendly." My husband knows someone who refuses to take his children to Disneyland and will not allow them to watch the Disney Channel. Why? Two reasons. One, because apparently, they give benefits to the domestic partners of their gay employees. Also, because they permit gays and lesbians to come to Disneyland and Disneyworld on "Gay Day." (I could be wrong, but I don't think it's organized by Disney. I think it's an outside organization that just makes plans for people to show up on a certain day.)

Great dreams, all of them. Although I would be happy as long as he is happy, the one thing I would like him to have is at least one song that becomes a classic, a signature song that everyone knows and associates exclusively with him. Whatever happens, I'd just like the broader world to gain a better sense of his talent, even if he doesn't become a mega-superstar. I tend to believe that he's really just shown us the edge of his potential, and that he is capable of far more than anyone realizes. I hope that coming out will free him creatively, and inspire him in ways that will amaze us all.

We're still having fun, and you're still the one!

Aww... I don't mind if you take it over.

I do understand that people are struggling. I'm struggling too. I'm struggling to understand why it is so critically important to some that Clay admit that he lied. There seems to be this need for some kind of mea culpa. I do believe that there are people upset by "the lie" who are not homophobic. They may even understand the reasons he was in the closet, and may even sympathize with what he's been going through. But why does this have to be about blame or the shifting of responsibility? When I think of all the things that some closeted gay people do to pass as straight -- marry people they don't love, make homophobic statements to avoid suspicion, overcompensate by actively engaging in stereotypical heterosexual behaviors -- Clay's meager Rolling Stone statement made five years ago seems like nothing. And the evasions of the last few years? Looks like an genuine effort not to lie. If he had no interest in being truthful, he could have just told Larry King, the Newsweek interviewer, and every other aggressively persistent reporter that he was straight. He did not. Rolling Stone aside, I do think he did everything he could to try not to directly lie, and yet keep his sexuality private. And for me, it's his intentions and motivations that matter, more than whether he said something once that was technically not accurate. In the end, I don't think it's homophobia that's ultimately driving the "but he lied" sentiment. I think it's entitlement, the feeling that because we defended him, perhaps even took crap for him, he owes us remorse for his actions. Personally, I feel he had a right to his sexual privacy, and a right to do what he did to protect it. I just don't see him as the callous, manipulative, liar some seem to want to make him. I see him as a young man who tried to be who he was, without labels, in a society that insists upon labelling people according to sexual orientation. He did his best. Maybe his best isn't good enough for everyone, but it is for me.

I do think it's still very hard, especially in some places and situations. As much as it's considered politically incorrect to express anti-gay sentiments, the fact remains that many, many people are still quietly homophobic, and in surprising ways.