#15 the Earl of Aikenberry: a man of character and Naughty by Nature

[liney23]

Think I prefer the fuckem and foregetem post! Now that was intelligent discourse!

So, where can we go find this wonderous post? I wanna...

Thanks ldyjocelyn for the youtube. For some reason, I had never seen that in its entirety. He did very well in covering up not being able to do the last note. Sings fast on his feet!

Happy Labor Day, all... I hope everyone is cooler than I am!!! Heat waves suck!

[merryclay]

Hey people, I have to cook food for these people that say they are my family. What's that about? LOL!!!!

[keepingfaith]

*teasingly* Um, there might have been a couple of "new" Motown clips... (jk, I'm uploading)

Oh wow, life is so good.

[Scarlett]

ITA with Couchie -- Glum's still part of the family. Would rather be Flirtacia, though.

[Guest Toots]

Think I prefer the fuckem and foregetem post! Now that was intelligent discourse!

So, where can we go find this wonderous post? I wanna...

Thanks ldyjocelyn for the youtube. For some reason, I had never seen that in its entirety. He did very well in covering up not being able to do the last note. Sings fast on his feet!

Happy Labor Day, all... I hope everyone is cooler than I am!!! Heat waves suck!

liney...It was part of Muski's post wayyyyyyyyy back there somewhere. The conversation was about how innocent Clay was or Clay was not, and how she didn't think he was innocent but not a fuckem and forgetem type of guy either. Don't make me go back and find it because I'll never be seen again.

Maybe Muski can come out and remember where it was. Memorable to be sure!!

[jamar1700]

There are a whole lot of different ways to be a fan.

I gotta agree w/your sentiment .... for the most part. But I also see what lightmyfire sees too. But I tend to think that it is overinvestment, which I think some people are prone to.

When it comes to the kind of fan I am, I can see correlations in both the way I have parented and my sports fandoms.

I knew that my children would have to make their own way in the world eventually anyway and needed to find their footing on their own without me hovering and worrying and handwringing. They needed to experiment and try and fail and get up to try again. [edited for clarity.] I also know that while I want nothing more for them to be happy, I don't get to choose what makes them happy.

As a sports fan I understand that not every season is gonna be magical, you know? Some of them are and some of them suck, rather dramatically *g*. So I try to enjoy the magic as it happens and not get too caught up in next season. Cuz you what? Shit happens, injuries and free agencies and transfers and coaching changes and salary caps. But...as it also happens...there is always NEXT SEASON! Hee.

So it is for me as a Clay fan...

No longer forward nor behind

I look in hope or fear;

But, grateful, take the good I find,

The best of now and here.

John Greenleaf Whittier, MY PSALM, 1859

---

I have to cook food for these people that say they are my family.

Says who? That's what restaurants are for.

Edited September 3, 2007 by jamar1700

[playbiller]

If I ran the fandom:

I would want the haters to stop loving Clay so much that they want to destroy him. Yes, I do believe the haters love Clay and I believe they don't want to and that is the rub. Love/hate relationships are always sad. Some people live their lives that way. I wish them lives and I wonder how their families put up with them - families, you ask? Yes some of these haters have young children. shudder

I would have some fans acknowledge that there is a reason that they are not making the big bucks in the music business and to realize that Clay is not going to hire them. I wish this so they could have some peace of mind and not have to worry how they can fix everything that the people getting paid screw up. I wish them more success in their fields of endeavor that needs their expertise. note this s not about speculation, but the people who know the TRUTH and how Clay is not being served by Team Clay.

For the fans who want to be the center of all attention all the time, I wish them a skill that brings them the fame they so desire so that they can do not feel the need to bask in the shadow of the Clay.

For the fans who want Clay to lead us on the righteous and moral path, I would have them actually hear what Clay says - he has already led us to the path, his message was live your own life and be tolerant of others.

Naw, no one is ever going to vote for me to run the fandom, it would probably be boring anyway.

[Guest Toots]

Nice rant Play! I say yeah to all of that!

[keepingfaith]

Now Scarlett's got me back in Motown today. I just had to watch some of it. Just had to. So what did I find ... something I'd downloaded for a rainy day months ago that was just right here waiting for me ...

Best of Jukebox Tour by goldarngirl and luckiest1, that's what. And the Interlochen "Reach Out I'll Be There" is just yummy. It has all the ingredients that I love about that performance -- full body shots featuring Clay's thighs, and the little "Ohhh" cry in his voice before the first booming "I'll Be There." Checking the clack vault, it's amazing to me how scarce Motown videos actually are for some of the venues, but I watched all the Interlochen that was up anyway

Canfly's Motown Part 3 has Reach Out I'll Be There and Think -- and I love the close ups of Clay's face during Think. Such a turn on.

4192spooky has it from stage left and it's a great angle showing some moves not seen in other clack, and has great sound.

dlh7777 has it from stage right with some hot shots. I just love the way he prances down those stairs and walks it to the edge of the stage like a field general. God, he's hot.

Scarlett, I see you were there at Interlochen. No beggining or pleading or whining or crying from me, but I just noticed that you did put up some clack from Interlochen. Simply noticed that you were there, and you must have had a wonderful time. And like I said, this is just an observation. Not that I"m jonesing for hot Motown clack or Clay's dancing thighs, you understand.

[Gibby]

Of course, waaaaaay back on one of the first pages I read to catch up, I saw this from YSRN:

I never saw a "rocket"

and now fear that she has been viewing the same files of CLACK that Gibby has. I mean, she's never seen the rocket? Ever? YSRN, do you have ANY pictures of Clay downloaded, sweetie? Any at all?

Yeah, right, Muski. :lies: :whatutterclaptrap:

BWAH!! :lmaosmiley-1:

Up and until February of 2006, I would have agreed with you, Couchie. But...my sentiment in respect to Clay's fanbase has changed. I believe that sadly this fandom has factions that are invasive and dishonest. And I honestly find their actions define the love for themselves, not a love for Clay. And I don't believe that Clay needs those fans regardless if they purchase a ton of CDs or a ton of concert tickets.

I am not perfect, Clay's not perfect..but I am expressing my true feelings. And I sense that I am not alone..

I find your posts refreshingly honest, lightmyfire! I wish you would post more often. BTW, who is in your avie?

If I ran the fandom:

I would want the haters to stop loving Clay so much that they want to destroy him. Yes, I do believe the haters love Clay and I believe they don't want to and that is the rub. Love/hate relationships are always sad. Some people live their lives that way. I wish them lives and I wonder how their families put up with them - families, you ask? Yes some of these haters have young children. shudder

I would have some fans acknowledge that there is a reason that they are not making the big bucks in the music business and to realize that Clay is not going to hire them. I wish this so they could have some peace of mind and not have to worry how they can fix everything that the people getting paid screw up. I wish them more success in their fields of endeavor that needs their expertise. note this s not about speculation, but the people who know the TRUTH and how Clay is not being served by Team Clay.

For the fans who want to be the center of all attention all the time, I wish them a skill that brings them the fame they so desire so that they can do not feel the need to bask in the shadow of the Clay.

For the fans who want Clay to lead us on the righteous and moral path, I would have them actually hear what Clay says - he has already led us to the path, his message was live your own life and be tolerant of others.

Naw, no one is ever going to vote for me to run the fandom, it would probably be boring anyway.

Yeah, that!!

Edited September 3, 2007 by Gibby

[Couch Tomato]

If I ran the fandom:

I would want the haters to stop loving Clay so much that they want to destroy him. Yes, I do believe the haters love Clay and I believe they don't want to and that is the rub. Love/hate relationships are always sad. Some people live their lives that way. I wish them lives and I wonder how their families put up with them - families, you ask? Yes some of these haters have young children. shudder

I would have some fans acknowledge that there is a reason that they are not making the big bucks in the music business and to realize that Clay is not going to hire them. I wish this so they could have some peace of mind and not have to worry how they can fix everything that the people getting paid screw up. I wish them more success in their fields of endeavor that needs their expertise. note this s not about speculation, but the people who know the TRUTH and how Clay is not being served by Team Clay.

For the fans who want to be the center of all attention all the time, I wish them a skill that brings them the fame they so desire so that they can do not feel the need to bask in the shadow of the Clay.

For the fans who want Clay to lead us on the righteous and moral path, I would have them actually hear what Clay says - he has already led us to the path, his message was live your own life and be tolerant of others.

Naw, no one is ever going to vote for me to run the fandom, it would probably be boring anyway.

Wow Play. Well I loved this whole entire thing so need to quote the whole entire thing. Just because.

ETA: since no one has posted yet - I guess the fact that I was holed up here for the past year makes a difference. I tried to venture out but came back quickly and you couldn't pay me to read the OFC. But yep Play, you hit on everything that chased me here. But although loud, I believe these represent a very teeeeny part of the fandom. I've always enjoyed the wild, wooly, even contentious nature of the fandom.

I also think that some have made so many friends over the last few years that despite waning interest in what brought us together, it's hard to let go because of the community. I used to be in another fan community but I moved away from it about 5 years ago. I have maybe 3 people left that I still talk with periodically. I think with this fandom that number would be vastly larger because I already have friends I found through Clay but I feel he isn't what keeps us together anymore. There are ways to keep your firends without throwing cold water on the fandom from time to time.

ETA: Why am I suddenly so cursed blessed with top of the page honors.

[wandacleo]

Couchie I understand your feelings about Clay needing his fans, but I do find I disagree a little about his needing ALL of his current fans, because I'm just not sure someone IS a fan if that person constantly criticizes and complains about Clay, his team, his choices, his CDs, his behavior, etc. It seems to me that person is a fan of some imaginary person whom he/she has created, not Clay.

Most of Clay's fan whom I know are actually NOT on the message boards, so we are a little microcosm here--not necessarily representative of the whole. I think that if a few of the "fans" moved on, others would take their place, and maybe some of the dialogs would be healthier and some new fans might feel more welcome. Let's face it--most people want to be a fan to celebrate. Not to boo or pick apart. And, while I appreciate their right to do that, I don't like to participate (or observe).

[Claygasm]

I've really enjoyed reading what everyone has to say. I have little to offer as I have no profound thoughts regarding Clay and am privy to nothing in Clay's life. However, I do want to say that when I read that people are refusing to buy ATDW or won't be a fan IF Clay....[fill in the blank], I say "Good riddance!" The world is chock full of Britney Spears and Justin Timberlakes. Move on.

Leave me and my unconditional devotion alone.

wandacleo- I certainly agree with your post. It might be helpful if the people that aren't really all that interested in Clay anymore could leave us to enjoy his gifts in peace. Clay is Clay. End of story.

See, I think some veiw "unconditional" as never criticize, never disagree with, never find fault with blah, blah, blah, Clay. I can conceive of an instance where I would cease to be a fan of Clay - at least in the sense of following him. I can conceive of an instance where I wouldn't buy his CD. Neither one of those instances are far fetched. I've expressed them before. If he embraced being a CCM artist, I couldn't follow him. If he put out a CCM CD, I wouldn't buy it. But that is because it is just something I cannot embrace. I would still want the best for him in life and be happy for him if that was the path he wanted to follow. I just couldn't follow along with him. Does that make me a bad fan? Good riddance to me?

I also don't think being over zealous or waaaaaay too nosey, or trying to run Clay's career or make a statement in Clay's behalf even when you weren't asked and other such things makes you a bad fan and good riddance to them. It annoys the hell out of me and I think in the end they do more harm than good, but I also believe they believe they are helping Clay.

I think those at sites like Chexxxxy's who "outed" fans they believed weren't "good" fans because they entertained the notion that Clay could be gay and that much of the crap might be true are much more harmful to Clay's career than those they "outed" especially since most of those "outed" also said they still loved Clay and would continue to support him. Plus, I think they over-stepped the bounds of decency and acted in a way that I feel sure would have made Clay cringe. If anyone should be booted from the fandom (or criminally prosecuted, but that's just my opinion), it should be them.

But then again, they claimed to have Clay's best interests at heart too.

I do NOT love Clay unconditionally. There are few people in my real life, if any, that I can say that about. I certainly won't say that about Clay. I am his fan - not his wife (damn), not his lover (damn, damn, damn), not his girlfriend (damn), not his buddy (damn), not his love slave (damn, damn, damn). I don't know him. I am his fan because what he does makes me happy. He will at times do, and has done in the past, things to make me VERY unhappy (YWT comes to mind). But as long as he most of the times makes me happy and does thing I can in good conscience support, I am his fan. If he doesn't, I will no longer be his fan. I mean, why would anyone be a fan of someone who doesn't make them happy?

If that makes me a bad fan or if you wish me good riddance, tough. At least for the foreseeable future, I am here to stay. I think we all need to remember that just because someone doesn't fit your definition of a good fan, that doesn't mean they aren't.

There are a whole lot of different ways to be a fan. I have to admit I have a low tolerance now for certain things like the angsting, the anger, etc. However, I don't want the people who engage in that to go away and leave me alone because Clay needs those fans too. They love Clay and it manifests itself in a way that is hard for me to understand sometimes (like explaining on places like Amazon or other websites that Clay was forced to do ATDW; he didn't want to but oh buy it anyway). I have no problem saying that action is quite sucky but I can't get into the minds of people, or decide who can say they are a fan, or tell them how to be a fan. I just have to find that place where being a fan of Clay is fun and not so worrisome. Real life is tough enough.. Fortunately I think there are enough things on the schedule to keep everyone from flaming out. And with the tour coming up, I pray the meet and greet format remains the same so that Clay will be able to assauge fears about his album. I just think that helps the entire fandom not be victimized by a bunch of random speculation. I don't know. I'm feeling optimisitc. :21:

Or what couchie said......

ITA with Couchie -- Glum's still part of the family. Would rather be Flirtacia, though.

BWAH!!! Love this!

[muskifest]

I have no idea what post you're referring to, Toots... I can't imagine I would EVER use the term "fuckem and forgetem". You must be confusing me with someone who has a smutty mind.

Guess where I am. Go ahead, guess!

Nope, not between Clay's thighs, although......

Crap. Now I'm all discombobulated and forgot my point....

[Couch Tomato]

Couchie I understand your feelings about Clay needing his fans, but I do find I disagree a little about his needing ALL of his current fans, because I'm just not sure someone IS a fan if that person constantly criticizes and complains about Clay, his team, his choices, his CDs, his behavior, etc. It seems to me that person is a fan of some imaginary person whom he/she has created, not Clay.

Most of Clay's fan whom I know are actually NOT on the message boards, so we are a little microcosm here--not necessarily representative of the whole. I think that if a few of the "fans" moved on, others would take their place, and maybe some of the dialogs would be healthier and some new fans might feel more welcome. Let's face it--most people want to be a fan to celebrate. Not to boo or pick apart. And, while I appreciate their right to do that, I don't like to participate (or observe).

I have no problem with this. I guess my main concern is that going down a "what is a fan" slope is one that is very very slippery indeed so I tend not to go there at all. I understand frustrations. I understand asking the questions? But really, can't go any further than that because that becomes another part of the fandom that I can't tolerate.

ETA: I feel extremely stupid right now because I didn't get Scarlett's artistic experssion. CG, explain it to me please while i go stick my head in the sand?

OT Damn! A day off and Court TV is airing a marathon of Beach Patrol? My station is really dead isn't it.

[JennaZ]

There are a whole lot of different ways to be a fan. I have to admit I have a low tolerance now for certain things like the angsting, the anger, etc. However, I don't want the people who engage in that to go away and leave me alone because Clay needs those fans too. They love Clay and it manifests itself in a way that is hard for me to understand sometimes (like explaining on places like Amazon or other websites that Clay was forced to do ATDW; he didn't want to but oh buy it anyway).

Good point, Couchie. There are certain behaviors in the fandom that annoy and even infuriate me. But, I have to remind myself that even those who make highly insulting comments about Clay's appearance, who complain endlessly about any little thing that doesn't conform to their vision of who Clay is, who seem to express more displeasure than delight in him, that even they, at heart, love Clay Aiken. I wish they could find more joy in the fandom, (and I tend to scroll past their posts), but I can't entirely discount their genuine affection for him.

When it comes to the kind of fan I am, I can see correlations in both the way I have parented and my sports fandoms.

As a sports fan I understand that not every season is gonna be magical, you know? Some of them are and some of them suck, rather dramatically *g*. So I try to enjoy the magic as it happens and not get too caught up in next season. Cuz you what? Shit happens, injuries and free agencies and transfers and coaching changes and salary caps. But...as it also happens...there is always NEXT SEASON! Hee.

Great analogy, jamar! I really do think that experience in another fandom gives one perspective. Life is a series of ups and downs. It's important to keep that in mind when things aren't perfect.

[clayzedover]

Great discussions here this morning. At the rate you guys are going, I'll only be able to post about once a month! When I have something to add. You guys have covered it ALL. Thanks! Hee.

I love Clay Aiken to bits. All that I can add regarding ATDW, or even future releases, is the advice he gave to some fans at a recent Meet and Greet. They asked how they could help him in the future, and he indicated the best thing fans could do for him was to :

"....buy it, even if it's CRAP."

Hey, I'm there with purse open and credit card in hand. If he's selling, I'm buying. His dealings with RCA can't be influenced by me, but if purchases can help him in HIS relationship with HIS label, that's what I will do.

I NEED to keep him singing and entertaining for as long as he wants to do that. He makes me smile from ear to ear...something that you can't put a price on in this crazy world. And the people he has brought together are quite an awesome bunch that would never have been part of my life otherwise. BAF is just icing on the cake.

Oh, and YES, I do believe something is UP with this guy. He's so happy that he glows. Whatever it is, I hope we learn something about it soon. His version of soon. When he's ready to tell us.

HAPPY LABOR DAY EVERYONE!!!!

[playbiller]

Well let me add:

I don't think fans have to buy everything

I don't believe that fans have to like everything

I don't think fans have to agree on anything

It is in the realm of possibliblty that some day Clay cold lose me as a fan, but least likely because of a style of music or because of a slip of the tongue (for Bottlecap)

What I would like to see is some fans have some common sense when dealing with gnats, critics, each other, when posting things on public boards (i.e. the entire internet, password protected or not), when posting reviews.

OK, I am picky and pretty judgemental, at least in my mind, if not always publically. Believe it, you should see the thoughts I keep to myself!

[wandacleo]

Claygasm

I mean, why would anyone be a fan of someone who doesn't make them happy?

Aw, but you see--we are in complete agreement!!!!

[Couch Tomato]

Have you ever done something and then a split second later realized you shouldn't have done it but it's too late.

[Gibby]

No, never, Couchie.

BWAH! :lies:

So, what did you do?

[YSRN]

YSRN, I have a recipe for grape pie if you are interested. PM me and I will send it to you.

Oh, yes, please. I'll PM you, or if you see this you can PM me the recipe. Thanks!

I do think people involved with his career have made some mistakes, not necesarily because of some nefarious plan to take him down,but mainly (as others have pointed out) from a lack of understanding of Clay & his fans and opposing objectives. Also, working with someone who thinks in terms of decades is probably tough for those whose jobs depend on next quarter's financial report. Unlike others, though, I'm willing to accept that a prototype record (like the Tampa fax) may have existed but simply as what they were -- a record and a fax. It's the amount of things that people have riding on them (eg. tacking on fame and fortune and glory to one prototype and building some sinister plot out of a simple note) that I find absurd. For every fan who sees lost oppportunities in a phantom album, there's probably a record exec who sees lost opportunities in forgoing a Mother's Day '06 album release.

Even if things were to start tumbling down and he had to start from scratch today, what's the worst that can happen to him -- be forced to self-publish?

Yep, yep, yep. Perfect little slice of my braincell matter too. And dude, those Clelvis caps are so gorgeous... I can't wait to see the vids... :F_05BL17blowkiss:

*teasingly* Um, there might have been a couple of "new" Motown clips... (jk, I'm uploading)

Oh wow, life is so good.

Ain't it?

I gotta agree w/your sentiment .... for the most part. But I also see what lightmyfire sees too. But I tend to think that it is overinvestment, which I think some people are prone to.

...

As a sports fan I understand that not every season is gonna be magical, you know? Some of them are and some of them suck, rather dramatically *g*. So I try to enjoy the magic as it happens and not get too caught up in next season. Cuz you what? Shit happens, injuries and free agencies and transfers and coaching changes and salary caps. But...as it also happens...there is always NEXT SEASON! Hee.

Yep, I agree with you, couchie, AND lightmyfire to a certain degree... I still have issues with the fans who would try to change other fans... I don't have issue with HOW people are fans except when they try to control other fans or control Clay's story. But my line is different than some people's (of course, since we're all different). I don't see people saying they want this or that as demanding. I don't see the "experts" trying to steer Clay's career as much as they are just expressing themselves or yakking about this or that aspect of this ride from the place they know -- their experience. I just don't agree with the folks who can't stay away from the media or the "haters" or try to beat people over the head with "the truth" or the "good fan" wand.

I totally think people who gripe all the time are fans... it's just who they are. For example, my sister and I go to dinner... she talks about how the food sucked and the service was slow and the prices are absurd and I'm sitting there enjoying the crap out of the ambience and the perfectly cooked chicken and sipping my wine and whatever and it took me 20 whole years to figure out that she IS happy; she DOES enjoy the experience. Freaky as hell, but it's her. It's just who she is. And I've come to FINALLY stop cringing when she bitches about it and I just laugh to myself or tease her for it and think whatever floats your boat, honey, as long as you don't go picket the joint and ruin their restaurant, you just bitch away and keep spending your money and it'll all be good. And I'll even keep going out with you because you get to be you just like I get to be me. And so, bitching and being critical of the experience is her way of enjoying it... it's makes her her own brand of happy. She's a weird chick, but... did I mention she's living with me right now? I guess I must love her a little. Oy.

As for the sports fan analogy... I can totally relate to this. I'm a Clay fan the same exact way I'm a sports fan. I get giddy for the successes. I don't despair of the non-magical times, I don't wear the T-shirt or my pin collection, and I read the news but don't get all up into Barry Bonds' steroid drama. (I still hate Kirk Gibson though - ::HATE::, but from a purely sports fan place - it's not real hate or real anger, it's "sports" hate and only a sports fan can understand that). Funny thing to realize. I guess I'm just me no matter what.

And MAYBE I'll just consider that SOME people's RCA hate is the same as my Kirk Gibson hate and I won't take it so seriously... SOME... MAYBE... heh! Cuz I'm pretty sure that some people carry some pretty heavy venom for the place. And I'd like to think I can tell the difference.

Ok, changing tracks...

A most interesting article/Rick Rubin interview posted by walkiki in the Industry News thread at the CH:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine...amp;oref=slogin

It's looooonnnnnggggg and I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I love Rick Rubin and he's always a good read. I suppose there is a thread somewhere around here that this should go in, eh? I'll go look in a bit, but I wanted to get this post done eventually.

Weee, little Stone Cold was rescued! Hee.

Uh, oh... couchie... what'd you do?

[laughn]

Shit...I was just reading along, following all this intense, intelligent discussion and didn't even see this coming...

Guess where I am. Go ahead, guess!

Nope, not between Clay's thighs, although......

thanks muski... :F_05BL17blowkiss: Now to explain that very loud sort choke laugh to my family...

I loved what jamar said here...

(jamar1700 @ Sep 3 2007, 07:11 AM) *

When it comes to the kind of fan I am, I can see correlations in both the way I have parented and my sports fandoms.

As a sports fan I understand that not every season is gonna be magical, you know? Some of them are and some of them suck, rather dramatically *g*. So I try to enjoy the magic as it happens and not get too caught up in next season. Cuz you what? Shit happens, injuries and free agencies and transfers and coaching changes and salary caps. But...as it also happens...there is always NEXT SEASON! Hee.

I think when Kimmel said Clay fans react to him like fans do at a sporting event he was probably dead on.

You have your attention seekers, the fans that get half naked, paint their bodies, wave signs, wear wigs. They usually get all kinds of media attention. I don't mind them. They make me laugh usually. They add color.

You have fans that follow the team from one state to the next, from one game to the next, meeting friends and having their tailgate parties. We follow Clay on tour, meet friends and watch his tail. Close enough.

You also have the sports fan who gets mad and throws the remote at the TV when their team doesn't perform as expected, people who get upset and write letters and threaten to cut donations to schools, etc. if the coach doesn't listen to their idea of how to field a 'winning team.' The armchair quarterback. Clay has plenty of those.

You also have coaches and parents getting into physical knock downs in front of their kids.

I am very happy in this Clay love I have going on and I try not to let others pee in my Cheerios. As play said,

Clay says - he has already led us to the path, his message was live your own life and be tolerant of others.

I try to do that. I can pretty much tolerate all kinds of fans, sporting fans and Clay fans...except for the throw down idiots. Those people are dangerous.

eta...or what YSRN was saying much better than I could while I was busy typing away...

And MAYBE I'll just consider that SOME people's RCA hate is the same as my Kirk Gibson hate and I won't take it so seriously... SOME... MAYBE... heh! Cuz I'm pretty sure that some people carry some pretty heavy venom for the place. And I'd like to think I can tell the difference.

Edited September 3, 2007 by laughn

[wandacleo]

Have you ever done something and then a split second later realized you shouldn't have done it but it's too late.

I hope you're not referring to virginity or marriage.

Some things just aren't easily undone.

[laughn]

Have you ever done something and then a split second later realized you shouldn't have done it but it's too late.

I hope you're not referring to virginity or marriage.

Some things just aren't easily undone.

S'true