#16 Veins flowing with personality, thighs dripping with character.

[Gibby]

I have a question about pictures. Are they loaded from links? I can't find directions here as to how to do pictures. Not that I HAVE any pictures to post, but just in case...

Wanda - A lot of us use photobucket, and copy and paste the URL for the pictures in our posts. It's really quite easy. If you don't know how to use photobucket, I'll be happy to post step-by-step directions.

[atinal]

jmh, I think so much of your post is spot on, I just feel that the JNT05 is where I started to see the nastiness and it seemed to become acceptable. What you describe is the chipping away of decency and it has gotten worse. The entitlement issue that several have mentioned has always rubbed me the wrong way. I've been known to buy a few extra CDs, gone to several concerts, bought tee shirts I'll never wear, but I will always feel that Clay has given me far more than my money's worth in sheer joy and entertainment.

[JennaZ]

What bothers me is the sense of self-importance many in the fandom seem to have. There is this idea that because we voted for him, bought his CD's, and went to his concerts, he must respond to our every whim, lavishly attending to us like a indebted artist before a wealthy and powerful benefactor. He must sing what we demand he sing, blog when we expect him to blog, and conduct his career in active consultation with us at all times. God forbid he have the temerity NOT to read our message boards! How disrespectful he is in not scheduling a concert in each of our hometowns! And how dare he keep anything secret from us--we deserve to know everything about his business, his plans, his relationships, and his life! We OWN him!

People just don't seem to get that we are only a part of his world, and probably not the most important one. I'm not denying that our dollars helped build his career. However, there is a large not.just.us contingent that bought the bulk of those CD's. We are not the only ones who watched him on TV and gave him ratings. And quite frankly, our opinions can be so diverse, so contradictory, and so uniformed, that they may not always be that helpful.

I love that he is his own person. Some didn't like "Without You." So what? He sang it anyway. Some hated the medleys this summer. He may have made adjustments, but he sang them at every concert. And no matter how many fans complain about Angela and Quiana getting too much stage time, year after year, he generously shares the spotlight with them.

I think he respects his fans and listens to their concerns. But I think, ultimately, he does what he wants to do because he thinks it's best--NOT because the online fans demand it of him.

[playbiller]

Some boards will never get it back, I hate to say it, but that's what I think. I think there's always been OTT behavior, just as I said in that post. But there's an atmosphere of hysteria that's become more and more prevalent. One cause, already mentioned by cindilu , the EW blurb, but more than that,some supersekrit message that went flashing around to the mods of all the big boards and other folks--the content of which I've never heard. This was closely followed by a barely veiled suggestion at the OFC that Clay wanted us to let RCA know that we all hated the idea of a covers album, and pretty quickly this became the accepted POV on the big boards--saying you didn't mind the idea could get you a big smack-down in a hurry. Along with this was a back channel suggestion, gradually made more public, like RCA was behind the tabloid shit in an attempt to control Clay and make him record those covers, and these grew into "RCA is out to destroy Clay": because he dissed Clive in his book, or they just don't like him, or he's leaving RCA after this album so they want to "devalue" him." Add in the Gnat and his lies, and the participation of a segment of the fandom in trying to "handle" that situation for Clay, and all of a sudden you've got a fandom that thinks we need to protect Clay from his "enemies" and that those enemies are everywhere. I can now and then get sucked into that one myself--it's a powerful force. That has its roots in AI, of course, the anomaly, and things that followed, but it's grown much, much worse, IMO. Instead of celebrating the joy, the focus has turned to smiting the enemies. That's just my take on it.

Hot damn - I said to my sister that there was some backwater action between mods from different boards - I said I like ATDW and thought Clay did as well and received the exact same smack down words from 3 different boards and 3 different mods! The only one where I did not recieve that smack down and was allowed to say what I wanted was the CH.

Yes, the JNT05 was interesting. I did notice that negative and positive reviews tend to come from groups of people who go together, feeding the group mentaility thing that seems to stand up even now. If you are with other people who are unhappy, you will report being unhappy, even if you were smiling and vice versa. We need more freethinking instead of group think. Or... maybe good company means a good time?

I think the problems predate JNT05 - I think it started innocently enough when people were studying the business and becoming unpaid "experts". The date of 6/06 was selected as the definitve date for the album release and most people accepted that this would be the date. As the date approached people started to get anxious about no release and a few people started looking for alternative dates. When Clay went back into the studio, there was some panic. The first inkling of cover information started with a troll on sucks - hey, even trolls can be right once in a while, apparently this was a troll with an agenda. I think the 06 issues just cemented the fandom as having to protect Clay. It was way beyond support, nope, it was protecting and being his main support.

Here is the issue - Yes, Keimer The OOT fans do support Clay, but these same protectors have driven the more casual normal fan away. I really do think, that although we have some new survivors here, that a lot of new fans get turned off real quick.

Edited September 13, 2007 by playbiller

[Couch Tomato]

CLYRA

thanks for the pictures

luv the clyra
ahem

you see that little icon with the tree in it..click on it and put in a link to your picture and the big beautiful picture will appear in your post.

If you use the attachment feature below...you will get a clickable screencap...but you can use photos from your computer.

hope that makes sense.

for me it started with LTS.

[Scarlett]

Oh, Miss Scarlett? Will you be rendering any Beautiful Humongous DVDs of this lovely summer DCAT?

I only ask, of course, for others. My two friends who couldn't make it to their very first Clay concert in LA....poor dears. THey SO wanted to experience Clay...

Muski love, I'm sorry that your friend missed the LA shows; yes I'm definitely making several including an LA one. Just don't know if I should try to (a) render & upload all shows, and then make dvds or (b ) render a couple of shows, make their dvds then move on to other shows. I'm eager to make the Florida ones already but there's a pile of tape waiting to get processed as well. *whispers sorry to Solo, Ressamac@CH, LoverAllAlone@CV & SlowAndEasy@CV for their hard work that hasn't been rendered*

Also, there's a lot of wonderful DVD work going on but I don't want to scoop the brilliant and v. nice people working hard on these. As long as you keep reading here, I don't think you'll be out of the loop. Hmmmm. Actually, I "floated" the idea with friends sometime ago and they seemed to be interested'. Maybe I should do an interview and then reference it on MySpace?

ETA: Oh @#$$##! Wheee! I'm on top and dragging a bucket of NC barbeque -- get ready for the splashdown!

ETAA: Bookwhore, how do you induce dreams like that? Did you eat something special for dinner? -- [teeny voice]please don't say liver![/tv]

Edited September 13, 2007 by Scarlett

[wandacleo]

I have a question about pictures. Are they loaded from links? I can't find directions here as to how to do pictures. Not that I HAVE any pictures to post, but just in case...

Wanda - A lot of us use photobucket, and copy and paste the URL for the pictures in our posts. It's really quite easy. If you don't know how to use photobucket, I'll be happy to post step-by-step directions.

Thanks! I have a photobucket account. I'll give it a try.

[Claygasm]

What bothers me is the sense of self-importance many in the fandom seem to have. There is this idea that because we voted for him, bought his CD's, and went to his concerts, he must respond to our every whim, lavishly attending to us like a indebted artist before a wealthy and powerful benefactor. He must sing what we demand he sing, blog when we expect him to blog, and conduct his career in active consultation with us at all times. God forbid he have the temerity NOT to read our message boards! How disrespectful he is in not scheduling a concert in each of our hometowns! And how dare he keep anything secret from us--we deserve to know everything about his business, his plans, his relationships, and his life! We OWN him!

People just don't seem to get that we are only a part of his world, and probably not the most important one. I'm not denying that our dollars helped build his career. However, there is a large not.just.us contingent that bought the bulk of those CD's. We are not the only ones who watched him on TV and gave him ratings. And quite frankly, our opinions can be so diverse, so contradictory, and so uniformed, that they may not always be that helpful.

I love that he is his own person. Some didn't like "Without You." So what? He sang it anyway. Some hated the medleys this summer. He may have made adjustments, but he sang them at every concert. And no matter how many fans complain about Angela and Quiana getting too much stage time, year after year, he generously shares the spotlight with them.

I think he respects his fans and listens to their concerns. But I think, ultimately, he does what he wants to do because he thinks it's best--NOT because the online fans demand it of him.

WORD!!!!

Still waiting on my laundry........

Pssst. Scarlett. Put me down for any and all DVDs.....

Yippee! Laundry done! I can go to bed!!!

[wandacleo]

Sometimes when you are angry with someone, it helps to sit down and think about the problem.

Edited September 13, 2007 by wandacleo

[Bookwhore]

Oh Lordy! Don't get me started on LTS. Remember there were a couple of chapters leaked before the book was acutally released? One of them was the "bars are what hell must be like" chapter and another was the part where he talks about some people in his family believing that you'll go to hell if you're not a christian. There were so many people that were convinced that those weren't really Clay's words, that someone involved in an evil plot to destroy Clay had written them and leaked them. And then there was the haircut picture which people were sure was an invasion of his privacy because surely he would never want such a bad picture to be made public. The people who posted those chapters and the pictures were villified and reviled at the time.....and then the book came out and it was all there - TRUE!

I remember getting smacked down because I bought a copy of the book first from a Christian bookstore, which was released a few days before it went on sale at general bookstores. I was a bad fan because I didn't give a crap if my buying the book from the Christian bookstore hurt his 'numbers' or not. To be honest, I never thought the book would make the best seller list. Never for one minute. I'm glad it did...really. But I've read a lot of books and IMO LTS is not fine literature, or even particularly well-written. I love the book for the glimpse into Clay's life that it gave me, but if it had been about any other person I wouldn't even have finished it.

[Stargazer]

Has anybody ever had Fried Cornmeal Mush and Tomato Gravy?

Together????

Yes, together. Yum!!

[kiermar]

Those photos of Clay looking ...longingly...at Tyra just take my breath away. Sexiest. photos. evah.

I'm toast.

[wandacleo]

Oh, I'm just happy as shit to figure out how to post pictures. Here's one of my all time favorites!!!

[wandacleo]

And THIS (and I swear I'll stop playing)

[sheiladownunder]

Play, you are so right. Remember said blackberries I mentioned. Well we had a small patch in our back yard. There was one house next to us and then next to it was small lumber company. Well this lumber company had like this shed/with metal roofing that had holes in it and some of it was rusted. In hte lumberyard was two ferocious dogs. On top of that shed was the biggest, best blackberries ever. heee. It was always an adventures to sneak up there (when the neighbor wasn't home cuz they hated kids in their yard and they often threw soap on their blackberries to keep us away) and take a bag and pick pick pick, dodging all manner of danger. heee.

Your story reminded me of how we used to climb up a mulberry tree at the dead end and Farmer Green (that's what we called him) would come running across his field with his shotgun yelling he was going to fill us full of buckshot. I mean it was one lousy tree barely at the back of his property. We'd leave when we saw him coming but we'd always go back. I can't even remember what a mulberry tasted like now but it was exciting to see him come running across that field. His little farm is now a used car lot and a big bargain store.

I like cream of wheat but I don't like grits, are they different grains?

Edited September 13, 2007 by sheiladownunder

[atinal]

Oh Lordy! Don't get me started on LTS. Remember there were a couple of chapters leaked before the book was acutally released? One of them was the "bars are what hell must be like" chapter and another was the part where he talks about some people in his family believing that you'll go to hell if you're not a christian. There were so many people that were convinced that those weren't really Clay's words, that someone involved in an evil plot to destroy Clay had written them and leaked them. And then there was the haircut picture which people were sure was an invasion of his privacy because surely he would never want such a bad picture to be made public. The people who posted those chapters and the pictures were villified and reviled at the time.....and then the book came out and it was all there - TRUE!

I remember getting smacked down because I bought a copy of the book first from a Christian bookstore, which was released a few days before it went on sale at general bookstores. I was a bad fan because I didn't give a crap if my buying the book from the Christian bookstore hurt his 'numbers' or not. To be honest, I never thought the book would make the best seller list. Never for one minute. I'm glad it did...really. But I've read a lot of books and IMO LTS is not fine literature, or even particularly well-written. I love the book for the glimpse into Clay's life that it gave me, but if it had been about any other person I wouldn't even have finished it.

Oh, one of my favorites, was when he added "Still the One" to the set list of the NAT and left out a verse and the fandom went nuts because they thought he didn't want to sing the line "still the one I want to wake up to in bed" (whatever that line is) I'm having a hard time going through the words in my head. There was page after page of posts about how he needed to get over himself, He sang the line when he was 18, why won't he sing it now, he's carrying this role model crap too far. It went on and on. It makes me laugh when I think of it now, but it wasn't too funny that night. The guy, as he is wont to do, had forgotten the words for heavens sake. Now I see it was probably a sign of things that would follow. Still CMSU asMuski would say.

ETA: I love love love the Tyra pictures. I think Tyra is one of the few celebrities that "get" Clay. I love that about her.

Edited September 13, 2007 by atinal

[canuck2010]

Blackberries:

My brother is a yuppie - card carrying - as is his wife. I love him beyond reason but he makes me laugh almost as much as Clay does. Last weekend, I had a dinner in honor of my son coming home to visit and invited all the family over for a get together. My brother and his wife always bring dessert. He asks for suggestions and I tell him how I LOVE "Savory Island Pies" - absolutely just like home made. So he goes there to talk to them. He wants a Blackberry pie. They don't have blackberry pie. Nope, he doesn't want apple pie because my mom's Apple pie is the best in the world. Nope, he doesn't want Stawberry and Rhubarb - he wants Blackberry pie - dammit!!!

So - he asks and they agree - they go out and pick sufficient blackberries for a pie - deliver them to the bakery and Voila!!!! We had Blackberry Pie!!!!

:lmaosmiley-1:

I just love him.

[Gibby]

Oh, I wish you had invited me, Canooky! (Is it okay if I call you by that nickname?) Blackberry pie is WONDERFUL.

Wanda, you posted some hawt pics! Yay, you figured it out! You can postho and put pics in different posts, or just post a whole bunch in one post. The max is ten pics in a post.

[wandacleo]

Well, since we are walking down the memory lane of horrors.

Have you forgotten boobgate????

Or WDC and wicked-evil degenerate dancing?

YWT and the ranting and raving over his singing (GOD FORBID) a hymn??

I hate to say this, but the lunatics have been a constant force; they're just getting worse.

[canuck2010]

Oh, I wish you had invited me, Canooky! (Is it okay if I call you by that nickname?) Blackberry pie is WONDERFUL.

Wanda, you posted some hawt pics! Yay, you figured it out! You can postho and put pics in different posts, or just post a whole bunch in one post. The max is ten pics in a post.

Of course, you can call me "Canooky" - all my friends do!

Wanda Your pics are ahem beeaauutiful!!!! I still remember when I discovered how to post pictures! I was so excited!!! It's such a kick!!!

[Shadylil]

Had to quick skim b/c I'll never catch up on 30 plus pages.

Food: Best food in the world is Hog Maw, aka Pig's Stomach. It's a Pennsylvania Dutch staple and is the yummiest food EVAH!

Liver: Yum-O

Angst: What really bugs the shit outta me? When posters with definate opinions, you know the ones, they're always putting their 'expert' 2 cents in no matter what the topic, post in such a definative way that it seems they are always right, even if the only facts they have are the same facts that everyone else has. And if you question them, they get all up in your face and huff and puff and try to blow your house down because they are ALWAYS RIGHT, even if it's JUST their opinion, and if you try to offer a differing opinion, they shoot you down in a condesending condecending condescending way. However you spell that word. I don't think I explained that very well.

Tyra pictures: There are times that I think Clay is the most physically beautiful man I've ever seen. Even when he's not.

I forgot about boobgate! Is it bad that the first thing I did was get someone to photoshop my face over Mezghan's face? OMG, the charts and explanations and insistance that that photo was photoshopped was so funny. My little home board, Clayton's Place, we were high-fiving everyone and exclaiming that we got nipple on SNL and boobys were the icing on the cake. Good times.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Shadylil

[keepingfaith]

Oh Clyra makes me happy. Unconfirmed dinner in April, and unconfirmed lunch in September ... that's good enough for me to look at more Clyra:

I like this picture because they both have long slinky sexy hands.

And he does look just absolutely eaten up in this one!!!

[ialreadyam]

But I knew what would happen in the fandom. Very predictable. One would think that people would have learned after all this time that, just because you read in on the Internet, doesn’t make it true. Apparently not. And don’t get me wrong - I have no problem with people who weren’t enamored with the tour concept and didn’t plan to attend. That’s fine. It’s to be expected. It’s normal. I also expected the teeth gnashing and breast beating. I do admit being surprised at the degree to which this occurred. All the “his career is over” stuff, some of it even coming from people who I never expected to hear this from, surprised me a little. This fandom really would make for an interesting sociological study. Seriously. "Crowd psychology" used to be seen only in actual physical crowds. Not so now - it has morphed and changed and is often found on the internet. You can look it up. Fascinating to see the “mob mentality” take over and see how people who initially “ho-hummed” at the "news" and were unworried, got caught up and changed their opinion.

But as I said, I expected it. Found it entertaining and not much more than that. But then. I came home from work yesterday and read and saw the reaction to Clay’s initial blog.

It wasn’t entertaining to me anymore. It wasn’t funny to me. The venom directed at Clay on the message board and in his blog astounded me. A little of it by people I call friends, others by people I had respected. So personal, so entitled, so demanding, so demeaning to Clay, so believing that Clay “owes” them, so proud of themselves for saying so. I must be clear though and say that it was certainly not everyone who did that. Some were thoughtful in their reasoning.

Remember that whole “unconditional” thing? It was interpreted many ways but, for me, it meant that that I loved and respected Clay unconditionally. It didn’t mean I always agreed with him. But you know what? I love my closest family and friends “unconditionally.” I share my opinions and I tell them if I disagree with something they say or do. But I don’t insult my close family and friends, I don’t think they owe me anything except a lotta love, I don’t think I get to control what they say and do, and I don’t ditch them when we disagree about something.

So to sum up this “post that would not die,” when I read my regular board and the responses to Clay on his first blog, I felt very sad. Very.

I posted the latter part of that last sentence on my usual board. Then I left for awhile because I choose not to hang out with people who make me sad. I heard later that my post, which was just that one sentence, was edited out. I find that sad too.

I’m glad I’m here now. I always thought this fandom was supposed to be fun! Silly me.

And, believe it or not, and I’m sure you’d prefer not to believe it, I have lots more to say. Woe is you! But I’m sick of being a dog walker. Not how I pictured myself.

Welcome back xxxclay - Seems we do share a lot of the same thoughts.

Waves to lurkers - If the lurkers think I am talking about them, they have very inflated egos. I am not naming names, just talking in generality or specifically not mentioning identifying details. The odds are I never heard of them. So, if they have a guilty conscience, they should go say they are sorry to someone and they will feel better. I am a member of many Clay boards and lurk on many others, even if you recognize yourself, I am still probably not talking about you.

Play, maybe if someone is upset at what you or anybody is writing, then they can understand how what was said about Clay and his friends might feel to him. Maybe? Just? If they apologize to him maybe I'll reconsider thinking this fandom has serious issues. But I don't expect to see this or anyone recognize that the collosal breakdown of graciousness is a more serious matter than what happens in one little corner of the world. My two cents.

Just a general reminder that this is an open board with no back rooms and cubby holes.

When I first read Plays coded message, I saved it so I could ruminate on it for a while. I really wasn't sure if this was due to a post, a PM she received or what! I think I get it. I don't feel a need to apologize, but I do need to be more tolerant of those who cannot control their worry and feel they have just got to "get it off their chest."

One ofthe things I find missing on almost efgery board is respect for Clay as a person - if it is indeed a fan board (TWOP is not a fan board), then Clay should be afforded at least as much respect as any poster, as well as his friends and family.

This has always bewildered me. Why is every bitter, mean-spirited, pot-stirrer allowed every courtesy and protection on the boards, while Clay, the ostensible reason for our fandom, can be bluntly and crudely insulted with absolute impunity?

I'm not saying there should be no criticism. I just think there's a respectful way to express one's opinion, and I don't think it's censorship to ask that of fans.

That's why I thank God he doesn't read the message boards often. I'd hate for him to see the kind of petty, cruel, and unfair statements about him that go unedited on nearly every board.

I totally and whole-heartedly agree. During the discussions tonight, someone smart asked when did all this outright cruel criticism begin. Couchie said LTS and I think she is right. It started there, and seems to have escalated with his interview in TV Guide where he announced he was leaving Hollywood. I believe a little earlier, when his Fan Club saw the light of day the criticism was a topic du jour for weeks. Then we had the Americana Tour - "oy" that wasn't pretty. It seems the fandom has become entrenched with this approach, and we must always be respectful of posters opinions even if they show total disrespect to Clay who is always the subject of disrespect.

Unfortunately there is nothing to be done. The "respect for other posters" and "no board on board" talk means no self examination, no dialogue, no fixing things for next time.

Self examination is good.

I agree couchie. Every board is entitled to make their own rules, of course, but I believe that being able to air differences and discuss conflicts is really necessary at times, and that things fester if you don't that can eventually destroy a board or at least, make people reluctant to post and drive members away.

Now the way you do the discussing is important, but I don't think you can make rules to make people be nice to each other. You have to foster an atmophere of trust and respect, and our admins have done a fine job of that. And what the heck is wrong with respecting Clay as much as we respect anyone else? I've never understood that. Sure, criticizing Clay is OK, but there's a respectful way to do it, and a mean and cruel way to do it. I don't understand why some boards allow so much of that, but, again, that's their right.

Y'all have read it enough already!

But I DO care, and am fascinated by, comments like jmh's above. I tend to agree with you somewhat; I might agree more if I had ventured to poke my nose out of here (which I did not).

But I'd LOVE to hear~why you think that is? What has caused the huge turnaround from the days of wine and roses....to the days of whine and noses out of joint? And do you think we'll ever get it back?

Some boards will never get it back, I hate to say it, but that's what I think. I think there's always been OTT behavior, just as I said in that post. But there's an atmosphere of hysteria that's become more and more prevalent. One cause, already mentioned by cindilu , the EW blurb, but more than that, some supersekrit message that went flashing around to the mods of all the big boards and other folks--the content of which I've never heard. This was closely followed by a barely veiled suggestion at the OFC that Clay wanted us to let RCA know that we all hated the idea of a covers album, and pretty quickly this became the accepted POV on the big boards--saying you didn't mind the idea could get you a big smack-down in a hurry. Along with this was a back channel suggestion, gradually made more public, like RCA was behind the tabloid shit in an attempt to control Clay and make him record those covers, and these grew into "RCA is out to destroy Clay": because he dissed Clive in his book, or they just don't like him, or he's leaving RCA after this album so they want to "devalue" him." Add in the Gnat and his lies, and the participation of a segment of the fandom in trying to "handle" that situation for Clay, and all of a sudden you've got a fandom that thinks we need to protect Clay from his "enemies" and that those enemies are everywhere. I can now and then get sucked into that one myself--it's a powerful force. That has its roots in AI, of course, the anomaly, and things that followed, but it's grown much, much worse, IMO. Instead of celebrating the joy, the focus has turned to smiting the enemies. That's just my take on it.

Another great post!

Here is the issue - Yes, Keimer The OOT fans do support Clay, but these same protectors have driven the more casual normal fan away. I really do think, that although we have some new survivors here, that a lot of new fans get turned off real quick. So, I do think that it would be better for Clay's career without a few of his entitled freespending fans who basically hate everything he does.

And another.

[jmh123]

Oh, I'm just happy as shit to figure out how to post pictures. Here's one of my all time favorites!!!

This picture is just One of my all time favorites too!!

I forgot to thankkiermar for the great post!!

Oh Lordy! Don't get me started on LTS.

OMG, Couchie's gonna be jumping on you and humping your leg - LOL.

I love the book for the glimpse into Clay's life that it gave me, but if it had been about any other person I wouldn't even have finished it.

I thought it was written at the level of a teenager or young adult, and no, not great literature, but I thought it was a good read.

Oh, one of my favorites, was when he added "Still the One" to the set list of the NAT and left out a verse and the fandom went nuts because they thought he didn't want to sing the line "still the one I want to wake up to in bed"

And that song brought us Angela's headlights and the "scratch my itch" gesture. I saw the latter for the first time in Syracuse and my mouth nearly opened to the floor. I was like, "I can't believe he just did that."

Edited September 13, 2007 by jmh123

[canuck2010]

Tyra pictures: There are times that I think Clay is the most physically beautiful man I've ever seen. Even when he's not.

There's just "something" about him - I can't put my finger on it (though I'd love to) but he has some pheremones pheranomes (or however the hell you spell it) or something - or he's an alien.

I remember reading at CH a post a while back that told of an appearance shortly after AI2 and Clay was waiting to go on and there were a bunch of hunky male models or somesuch also in the room and, apparently, ALL the women were enthralled with Clay - HE was the alpha male in the room (and this was during the spikey-do days) and the hunky males were going WTF?? wondering what was going on. I wish I could remember the correct details - maybe someone else could help me here. It cracked me up though and I could understand those women perfectly!

Edited September 13, 2007 by canuck2010