Uncasville, CT -- Dec. 9, 2007

[Claygasm]

I lied. I am back.

But only to apologize for how I worded my response to jmh.

I reacted badly as it seemed to me she was talking down to me - like I was too stupid to know the difference.

I do not react well when I am talked down to nor having it implied I am stupid.

Perhaps if she had eliminated the "Let me spell it out with no sarcasm. Claygasm" I wouldn't have reacted the way I did.

But she did.

So I reacted perhaps with too much anger.

So I am taking the high road and apologizing. I will not allow myself to become part of the nastiness that seems to be surfacing already.

And now I really am done.

[jmh123]

The "let's spell it out with no sarcasm" was because I felt like my sarcasm was not an effective way to communicate, not because I didn't think you were understanding me. I'll admit I've had it up to here with the argumentativeness today, and that's reflected in my tone. Apology accepted and apologies to you as well.

While performers on stage can certainly be negatively affected by things the audience does during a concert, and audience members can be disturbed at a concert as well, a play ideally creates a world of the imagination that everyone present is caught up in, and a disturbance can ruin that for everyone. It IS different.

[Couch Tomato]

yay cool...

but next time...

thunderdome

[Ansamcw]

OK going to put on my admin hat for a sec....

I think this discussion will really go smoother if EVERBODY avoids emotionally charged words. The issue is very hot because this is clack we are talking about...its like telling a bunch of junkies...they will be cut off. That will never be pretty...

so please try to understand each others POV and discuss the topic and not each other....choose your words carefully.

BTW...I think it will be better if we move this discussion to main...

[lightmyfire]

Claygasm I honestly didn't take jmh123's commentary as implying that you were stupid. I apologize if you were offended as I did quote her in agreement.

I do want to express my feelings before logging off tonight. I will never understand how anyone can compare or relate a drug addiction withdrawal to that of the absence of clack during the Spamalot run. I find that sad and I find the term "junkie" to be an emotionally charged term. But that is just me.....

[Ansamcw]

lmf...I think we are all very much aware of the huge difference between the two. But the fandom is pretty much used to the drug analogy when it comes to clack, that is how it got its name after all.

I know how you feel about clack and that you have only seen 5 clack as you said. But a lot of us do rely on Clack a lot. So I personally know that it will be very difficult to think that I may not see or even hear this performance so I do take it seriously and I understand why the reaction can be so strong in some circles.

[jumpingjacks]

I am not a clack addict so this will be no different than not watching any thing else. I've watched more than 5 pieces of clack but far less than most. It isn't an addiction for me.

Personally, the taking of video at Spamalot has nothing to do with Clay and everything to do with my respect for the institution that is Broadway. I have been to enough shows to know that it is not the same as a concert....and I don't believe it was ever intended to be the same.

Going to the theater (be it Broadway or touring companies) is a chance to step out of the real world and into a story. It is, by nature, a suspension of reality.

What's interesting about Spamalot is that it doesn't rely on "sets" to set the mood...very simple sets...but the mood is still set and it isn't a concert mood. It is different.

I have no control over what others do...I can only express my opinion on how I feel about it. I am quite sure nothing I say will change anyone's mind.

[Clayzorback]

I still don't see the harm. Its just a play! How would it hurt Clay if it ended up there? Did it hurt David Hyde Pierce that there was video of him in the Sir Robin role on YouTube? Did it hurt the play?

People who will yell "I love you Clay" and "A belated happy birthday Clay" during the musical introductions to vocal performances in a classy theatre don't know the meaning of discrete.

Equally silly to suggest that the level of potential Clay clack can be compared to the level of DHP clack for Spamalot.

People who sell tickets to stuff think that giving it away is an impediment to sales. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. I don't know the answer, but I do wonder. Clay's tour ticket sales have decreased in proportion to the increase of the amount of Clack of his tours that is available. Causal?? Maybe; maybe not. I would never want to abandon clack myself, but I do think there should be more discretion and consideration than there is.

It's just a play? Alrighty then. I thought it was one of the biggest shows on Broadway, and I thought that people in the business considered Broadway to be the pinnacle of the profession. I thought theatre people considered it important be able to concentrate on their work, hence the announcement before each show to turn off cellphones, put away cameras, and even to unwrap any candy or cough drops you plan to eat before the show--but hey, if it's just a silly play, with stunt casting of some stupid no-talent American Idol contestant who didn't even win--who cares whether his performances in Spamalot are taken seriously? It was entirely wrong of me to get so excited about the opportunity for Clay. It's all a big joke any way.

Let me spell it out with no sarcasm. Claygasm, Broadway is not a concert. The rules are different, the expectations are different, the needs & expectations of the actors to be able to concentrate on their performances are different, the enjoyment of the other attendees is affected differently. It's not simply a matter of what's legal.

As to whether Clay will be blamed, naive to think that he won't be.

I loved every single word you inked... :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Personally, I have zero doubt that clack has negatively impacted ticket sales. It is impossible to prove..but that is my belief.

Add merrieeee and Ansamcw to the mix and it pretty much sums up myfeelings on the matter as well. I absolutely think clack has hurt Clay's concert sales. Of course I can't prove it and am not making any judgements about those who take it, but I truly believe as, I've said before, that it hurts his sales. I also still believe he will go to no cameras allowed again, at some point.

[Claygasm]

I absolutely think clack has hurt Clay's concert sales. Of course I can't prove it and am not making any judgements about those who take it, but I truly believe as, I've said before, that it hurts his sales. I also still believe he will go to no cameras allowed again, at some point.

This is a whole different debate. I have to say I do not think clack has hurt his ticket sales - nor helped him in any way.

Clack is primarily only watched by members of his internet fandom - not the NJU types and probably even rarely by his fans who don't hang out on message boards. That means a relatively small percentage of his fans watch clack. Even the stuff that shows up on YouTube is primarily watched by fans seeking out "Clay Aiken". You would very rarely just stumble upon it.

I have never bought that clack is a means to expand his fanbase, but on the other hand, I have NEVER heard ANYONE say oh I'll just watch the clack instead of going to his concert.

The one way I think it may have helped Clay is to maintain the interest of many of his fans who rarely get the chance to see him - those from overseas or who live in places where Clay rarely goes and don't have the money or time - or both - to travel to see him. By watching clack I would imagine they can still feel connected to Clay and his growth through the years. I often wonder without clack how many of them may have drifted away.

[Ansamcw]

I am totally on the fence about this because personally I have had both reactions.

As someone who has mostly relied on Clack for most of the Clay tours, (only been to one JBT and 4 DCAT) I agree with CG that it has helped sustain my interest in Clay. If there is no Clack would I drifted away? I am not sure...cos there is the internet and the Clay community and his appearances on TV. I wonder how it is for fans of other artist that does not have as much video on their artists?

However...I also know that part of the reason why I do not work as hard to see a show is the reliance to clack. I have gotten used to hearing the show through the cellstream...I have gotten used to seeing the show through clack that I don;t have as much NEED to see it physically. At first the overriding motivation I have to go to New York was to have fun with my friends...Now I want to go to see Clay!!

I don't want to have a complete stop of Clack. I appreciate the clack we all have and the clack gatherers...but I see both sides of the problem and right now the best thing I can see is for the fans to simply cooperate with Clay when he asks us...

[atinal]

I have come to suspect that perhaps fans who wouldn't miss a Clay Aiken show early on, don't feel as much of a need to go because they know that clack and pretty darned good clack will be available. Is it a significant number? Who knows. Of course everyone agrees that clack cannot compare to the live experience, but some have come to accept it as a viable substitute. There could be many reasons that concert sales are down, but to me it isn't out of the question to think that some of it could be because of the availablity of clack.

I think the same is true of his performances on TV. Early on people would stay up til dawn or get up at dawn to see any little performance or interview on TV, now, not so much. How many will watch the skating show, we've seen all of the Clay related performances, so will we take time out of our Christmas day to watch the actual airing. I know I will, but others I think will wait for the clack, or consider they've already seen the parts they want to see.

I love clack as much at the next person, and I appreciate the effort it takes to get it, I just don't know if I can come down on the side of the discussion that says it's good for Clay.

It has often been said that the internet fandom is such a small part of Clay's fanbase, but can we truly measure how many people download or watch clack from UTube, you send its, send space and different vaults, or even if they don't download it, they know it's there if they want to find it and see it? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I do have questions because I can't say as definitively as some do that "clack sells tickets"

[jumpingjacks]

Perhaps the "intensity" of Clay's fans would have waned without clack....and maybe that's not such a bad thing. Sometimes the intensity I see in this fandom makes me want to run the other direction. It has nothing to do with Clay, though, so I would always seek out info. on him and buy his products.

I purchase music that I like....I don't have a need to follow every move of every person's music because I like them.

I don't think I'm addicted to Clay as much as I am addicted to the internet.

[lightmyfire]

lmf...I think we are all very much aware of the huge difference between the two. But the fandom is pretty much used to the drug analogy when it comes to clack, that is how it got its name after all.

I know how you feel about clack and that you have only seen 5 clack as you said. But a lot of us do rely on Clack a lot. So I personally know that it will be very difficult to think that I may not see or even hear this performance so I do take it seriously and I understand why the reaction can be so strong in some circles.

But you appear to be assuming that I have had the opportunity to attend a concert of every single tour which is not the case and I most likely won't have the opportunity to hit Spamalot. I would love for every single fan to have the opportunity to see Clay live and on Broadway, but it isn't going to happen. It just isn't. It isn't going to happen for me and it isn't going to happen for others.

And perhaps you have been fortunate at the concerts that you have attended that your experience wasn't disrupted by clack gatherers. And I understand now that when I purchase a concert ticket and take a guest to enjoy an evening with Clay Aiken, that I risk having unruly, unlawful individuals sitting three rows in front of me create an uncomfortable situation that is impossible to ignore when venue security has to drag them out of their seats and out of the venue. So, when I read about the great sacrifices that these godesses make for the fandom, I am reminded that they impacted my experience, that of my guest, and those in my section in a negative fashion who paid to witness Clay in concert. And I am a fan also.

[playbiller]

My NJU sat next to the CH cellcerter at a concert. Her first remark to me when we joined up again was - the woman next to me waS on the phone all through the concert, it was very distracting. SHe did not say that was great, I loved it or anything like that, nope, the woman next to her annoyed her.

Even a simple cellcert can be disruptive to people used to just sitting and watching a show.

[Ansamcw]

lmf...I think we are all very much aware of the huge difference between the two. But the fandom is pretty much used to the drug analogy when it comes to clack, that is how it got its name after all.

I know how you feel about clack and that you have only seen 5 clack as you said. But a lot of us do rely on Clack a lot. So I personally know that it will be very difficult to think that I may not see or even hear this performance so I do take it seriously and I understand why the reaction can be so strong in some circles.

But you appear to be assuming that I have had the opportunity to attend a concert of every single tour which is not the case and I most likely won't have the opportunity to hit Spamalot. I would love for every single fan to have the opportunity to see Clay live and on Broadway, but it isn't going to happen. It just isn't. It isn't going to happen for me and it isn't going to happen for others.

And perhaps you have been fortunate at the concerts that you have attended that your experience wasn't disrupted by clack gatherers. And I understand now that when I purchase a concert ticket and take a guest to enjoy an evening with Clay Aiken, that I risk having unruly, unlawful individuals sitting three rows in front of me create an uncomfortable situation that is impossible to ignore when venue security has to drag them out of their seats and out of the venue. So, when I read about the great sacrifices that these godesses make for the fandom, I am reminded that they impacted my experience, that of my guest, and those in my section in a negative fashion who paid to witness Clay in concert. And I am a fan also.

I am feeling a disconnect with your response. I am not assuming anything about you except what you already stated that you dislike clack and think that it should be stopped. I totally respect your feelings about Clack and will not question your reasons for feelings so...but not everybody feels as you do so let us just accept that there is a huge difference in opinion here. All I am saying is that my phrasing in the original admin note may not be appropriate to you,...but I do believe it was appropriate to the situation and the larger audience.

[lightmyfire]

Ansamcw I believe that I caused the disconnect due to my inability to equate clack to drug addiction/withdrawal.

I regret ever posting my thoughts on this subject.

Having said that, I believe that you will get your Spamalot clack and I hope you enjoy it.

[Couch Tomato]

Well my problem with the concerts have not had anything to do with a clack gatherer but the cellcerter and also with fans who have been to so many shows that it's all about community and not the man on the stage. Sorry for anyone that has had a bad experience with a clack gatherer.

However if I could do away with every word in the Clay vocabulary the one word I would not do away with is Clack. I love it. It's perfect and fitting. I understand the devastation of real harmful addictions and have suffered loss. My best friend is dead as the result of her being a crack addict.

Ansa and I were disturbed by a cellcerter in San Diego. I would like her to shut her face but would not like to see something that gives pleasure to so many disappear. It's an easy thing to solve. Just don't talk at all during the show. And I hope that people who do this are reminded of this over and over and over again. The people at the show that paid for the tickets should get priority over anyone sitting at home listening to a scratchy speaker. We're always going on about expanding Clay's base...well let's not do anything to make newbies that do come out to see Clay go away in disgust.

ETA: For the record neither Ansa or I are not advocating anything. We won't put up clack alerts on FCA or have a thread to trade Spamalot Clack. I'm sure most boards will follow that. I don't understand where the anger is coming from here. Everyone else is just responsible for themselves.

[lightmyfire]

ETA: For the record neither Ansa or I are not advocating anything. We won't put up clack alerts on FCA or have a thread to trade Spamalot Clack. I'm sure most boards will follow that. I don't understand where the anger is coming from here. Everyone else is just responsible for themselves.

If this is directed at me, I have never stated nor have I implied that you and Ansa are advocating the distribution of Spamalot clack. I was simply saying, that I believe that clack will be obtained and that she will have access to it. Not here...

I will say it again, I regret posting my thoughts on the subject. I apologized. Now, I am done.

[Clayzorback]

I absolutely think clack has hurt Clay's concert sales. Of course I can't prove it and am not making any judgements about those who take it, but I truly believe as, I've said before, that it hurts his sales. I also still believe he will go to no cameras allowed again, at some point.

This is a whole different debate. I have to say I do not think clack has hurt his ticket sales - nor helped him in any way.

Clack is primarily only watched by members of his internet fandom - not the NJU types and probably even rarely by his fans who don't hang out on message boards. That means a relatively small percentage of his fans watch clack. Even the stuff that shows up on YouTube is primarily watched by fans seeking out "Clay Aiken". You would very rarely just stumble upon it.

I have never bought that clack is a means to expand his fanbase, but on the other hand, I have NEVER heard ANYONE say oh I'll just watch the clack instead of going to his concert.

The one way I think it may have helped Clay is to maintain the interest of many of his fans who rarely get the chance to see him - those from overseas or who live in places where Clay rarely goes and don't have the money or time - or both - to travel to see him. By watching clack I would imagine they can still feel connected to Clay and his growth through the years. I often wonder without clack how many of them may have drifted away.

Hi Claygasm. I agree with that first paragraph I bolded. Let me clarify what I meant. When I say clack has hurt his ticket sales , I mean from his existing fan base. IMHO they are 90% of the people who have been attending his concerts, for the last couple of years. Alsp JMO but I don't think Clay has made much effort to enlarge his fanbase so far. Of course it is hard for him to do that with no new music. He has been catering to the die hard internet message board fans of about 3-5 thousand. Hopefully this tour and Spamalot will help him to get more new fans. Because frankly the 3-5 thousand fans are dwindling down to about 1,000-1500 OMHO. I think Clack is a big part of the reason. I mean why spend 500-1200 dollars to travel to see his 4th Christmas concert, when you can watch the entire show from Clack Unlimited's vaults. In 16 different angles by 16 different clack gatherers. When clack first started being available, it was by one or two people who were trying to help those fans who couldn't attend a show to get a chance to see it. Why not, Clay has allowed it to be taken. But it seems to me, that it has gotten out of control just like those pins did when he had to put a stop to fans using his image. We now have sooo many people wanting to be clackwhores that what started as good intentions is now starting to hurt Clay in his pocketbook. Of course there are other valid reasons his sales are down. It's his 4th tour of basically singing the same songs. It's a Christmas tour and it is a hard time of year for people financially. It is a holiday time for family and friends. Plus it's all on the East coast and not realistic for people who live in, say California, to go to the expense to travel there. That is why it is imperative that the locals buy up the tickets. He has to find a way to get those locals and stop relying on his fans to travel to 20 shows each tour. Well he doesn't have to do anything I say, but you know what I mean........I honestly have to say that I don't think Clay can continue doing a yearly Christmas tour, if his fanbase doesn't grow. JMO and all that.

Spamalot is serious business and I hope that people will do the right thing.

Claygasm I enjoy the way you speak your mind and your honesty, just for the record. I think you articulate your reasons why you think the way you do, very well.

[Clayzorback]

ETA: For the record neither Ansa or I are not advocating anything. We won't put up clack alerts on FCA or have a thread to trade Spamalot Clack. I'm sure most boards will follow that. I don't understand where the anger is coming from here. Everyone else is just responsible for themselves.

If this is directed at me, I have never stated nor have I implied that you and Ansa are advocating the distribution of Spamalot clack. I was simply saying, that I believe that clack will be obtained and that she will have access to it. Not here...

I will say it again, I regret posting my thoughts on the subject. I apologized. Now, I am done.

Don't apologize for stating your thoughts on anything. I'm sure it is just a misunderstanding. I enjoy reading your thoughts as well as Ansamcw's and others. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[ldyjocelyn]

I mean why spend 500-1200 dollars to travel to see his 4th Christmas concert, when you can watch the entire show from Clack Unlimited's vaults. In 16 different angles by 16 different clack gatherers.

Because NOTHING can replace seeing Clay live. Period. (Didn't we have this discussion on main a few weeks ago?) I'd honestly spend the extra money to see Clay in every single concert tour if I could work it into my schedule. Spamalot is my first "missed tour" as it were. But I'm pretty positive I'll try to go see Clay every tour he does.

Reasons to miss a tour? Money. Family obligations. Clack? Not in my case.

I will say though that I can understand the idea of being a clackgatherer as a heady experience. I've been lucky in that I've managed to capture a few outstanding moments for Clay, and I've got to say, that feeling of people saying "wow" is an addictive experience.

I think Clay's fanbase will grow, but it's not my job to figure out how. Or worry about it either.

lightmyfire, please don't regret anything you've said. Treat it as a learning experience instead. (I think many of us are having "learning experiences" in the past 24 hours on the message boards....)

[Couch Tomato]

I wish people wouldn't apologize for stating feelings or having an opinion. Nobody's opinion is right or wrong.

I don't want to walk on eggshells. I just feel anger and I don't get it. Or maybe Im just misreading it. Hell, that's been known to happen. I was responding to the posts I've read about the subject here and on main and just wanted to let everyone know our position as we talked it over last night. I haven't seen anyone angry at Clay here even if they don't see what's so wrong with taking clack. Frankly Clay said don't take it and that's enough for me. FCA will honor that. Now if I'm supposed to say and me, couchie, as a person will not click on anything I see out there..forget about it. I'm not saying it.

The clack distribution vaults and the boards will come to agreement and spamalot clack won't be out there in massive organized way. That's all we as a group can do. People will work through and blow off steam over time. I can understand why everyone isn't on that page yet. Of course I don't plan to go read a whole bunch of whining about it either. We know the score and we'll deal. And god, hopefully this will blow over PDQ.

I don't believe that Clay's fanbase refuses to go see him because they can easily get clack. Clay has toured constantly and for some of us it's a real hardship to go see him. As a single person I sacrifice a lunch here and there. I can see how a married person would have to sacrifice so much more. Last year was the first and only time I didn't see Clay live on a tour. It had nothing to do with the availability of clack although I was so grateful for it. It was TIMING first... and once I realized fuck the timing I'm going..airfare was close to $500 from California to any of the reamining shows. Clack is no substitute for the real thing. EVER. IMO.

[Ansamcw]

Ansamcw I believe that I caused the disconnect due to my inability to equate clack to drug addiction/withdrawal.

I regret ever posting my thoughts on this subject.

Having said that, I believe that you will get your Spamalot clack and I hope you enjoy it.

lmf...if you regret posting because I disagreed with you or Couchie did ...please don't. You have made your points very well. I cannot disagree with your own reaction to clack ...since that is yours. I just have very different POV in general.

Look I am not arguing for people to get Clack. I have said that I hope the clack gatherers don;t feel pressure to take it and that they simply enjoy their experience and watch. BUT...I know you are right...someone might get it...and if I get a chance to see it I know I will enjoy it. Since I do not plan to put it up on you tube I will not worry about it.

[Claygasm]

Claygasm I enjoy the way you speak your mind and your honesty, just for the record. I think you articulate your reasons why you think the way you do, very well.

Thanks, Clayzor - although you may be the only who think so!