#23: Lordy. He is one more hunkalicious dude!

[laljeterfan]

I figure we're all allowed our thoughts, and depending what day it it, I'm sure what irked me yesterday might not even show up on my radar today. I figure that's how we humans are. I would hope that the people I post with daily would understand my moods. That said...

I have more trouble understanding the people who have trouble understanding the 'negative.'

It seems to me like some fans are embarrassed by negative statements. They don't want some un-named others to see those comments. They don't want Clay to see the negative. They don't want to see those comments themselves. However, I think that if a person has something they are not happy with, or something they are worried about, if they could just make their statement without others complaining about the complaint, then the whole business would be done. Their point would be duly noted, and we move on. Once others jump in to argue why they thought the complaint was wrong or explain how their thoughts are different, to me it's like beating the child.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you still doesn't make either one of you right...or wrong. (as I'm sure a whole bunch of folks who are rollin' their eyes at this post right now will attest to)

I don't believe Clay would be embarrassed, or bothered in any way, by negative comments. If he were that thin skinned he would have quit performing when his choir teacher gave him the boot years ago.

I have no problem with constructive criticisms, and preferences for certain performances. If someone expresses their opinion as just that, "THEIR opinion" then there is no need for argument. However, many of the consistently negative posters in the fandom express their opinions as FACT- they didn't like the JNT 05, or "the work" as some derisively call it, so it is not just that THEY THEMSELVES didn't like it, it becomes an error in judgement on Clay's part. They don't like a certain hair color, style etc, so Clay better get rid of John D/Steeeve/Jamie and get someone who really knows how to cut hair, because for Gawds sake, if he goes out in public looking less than "Rock-Stah" gorgeous, he'll lose fans. The fan stories were a horrendous idea- (said even before any of them had been heard by the fandom) and were a huge mistake- well, at least those stories that were submitted or read by someone other than their friends/boardmates. You get the idea.

And while it is obvious that Clay is certainly aware that some of his fans seem to get their jollies picking him apart strand by strand, I don't think he spends a whole lot of time reading all of the "helpful suggestions" offered to him by his all-knowing fan base. I love the fact that he has said, in effect, "I know that there are those out there who don't like x, y or z that I am doing, but ya know what- I LIKE IT, so I'm gonna keep doing it."

Congrats, jumpingjacks

[jumpingjacks]

Thanks. I can't believe it. I didn't even know she had the same blood type. I'm trying very hard to keep my expectations low but just the idea that she would step up makes me all kinds of schmoopy.

It's a big committment. Her hubby said he knew why she wanted to do it and that he would support her 100%.....

[playbiller]

And the cheese stands alone.

Sometimes it seems that some equate being honest - if that honesty may involve something slightly critical of Clay - with bashing or always being negative. I have certainly been accused of that when being honest with my opinion. Someone else may see the same thing and come away with a completely different honest opinion.

And that's ok.

The only people I have issue with are those who weren't at a concert, taping, play etc. but either listened to the cellcert or read recaps and then pronounce their opinion as fact and that those who were there are wrong. And those people have been known to make those pronouncements both negatively and positively.

There is negative and there is negative. I have no problem with people saying thier piece and ending it, but some not only say their piece, but psychologically diagnose Clay and the reasons he says or does something and then go into laundry lists of his faults. Saying you don't like something without a subtext is not a problem for me. Different strokes for different folks. But there is a way of saying things hurtfully or just saying them straight.

But I have to say, pre-Clay, I would NEVER imagine doing such a thing! I had NEVER seen the same concert more than once. I never pay to see a movie more than once, but I do get the DVDs of some favorites. So I totally get someone not understanding someone wanting to do multiples.

OK, here is where I apparently differ from everyone else. Yes, I did follow someone else where ever he sang in the tri state area. It was not expensive and I didn't fly, but I would go several days in a row to see him in concert. But since he was not expensive, it was not a big deal. He talked to the audience as much as he sang and he would just talk off the cuff, had a beautiful speaking voice as well as singing and played in small clubs where we could sit up front or buy him drinks, but I never did either, I never approached him to talk, That would remove the 4th wall. I had several different friends who liked him, so there was never an issue of going alone. I just don't think they knew that I would go to so mnany shows, since I went to different shows with different people. Compared to him, Clay sings boatloads better, but also does not speak nearly as well. You also have to take into consideration that I did not start following this guy until he was in his 50s and he is almost 90 now. I don't think he ever warmed up, yet he has a lovely voice today, can sing rings around a lot of people younger than him.

It seems to me like some fans are embarrassed by negative statements. They don't want some un-named others to see those comments. They don't want Clay to see the negative. They don't want to see those comments themselves. However, I think that if a person has something they are not happy with, or something they are worried about, if they could just make their statement without others complaining about the complaint, then the whole business would be done. Their point would be duly noted, and we move on. Once others jump in to argue why they thought the complaint was wrong or explain how their thoughts are different, to me it's like beating the child.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you still doesn't make either one of you right...or wrong. (as I'm sure a whole bunch of folks who are rollin' their eyes at this post right now will attest to)

. I don't think someone with an opposing view should make you feel badly about your own and visa versa.

Negative, to me, is not in not liking something, but the negative is the endless complaining and not seeing the beauty, as if the ugly is more than the beauty. Like saying something nice would kill some people if they couldn't say some nasty more.

I just got a call that one of my friends is being tested to see if her kidney is compatible!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am in shock....I had no idea she was even thinking about it.

Talk about a belated Christmas present. (tears of stunned surprise)

<snip> Some posters do come across as bullying to me and no different than the kids Clay had to deal with in the schoolyard..bullies who can dish out, but can't take it and immediately run to the admins when someone calls them on their crap.

<snip>

I do think there is a lot of hypocrisy in the fandom; pissing and moaning over bad reviews from the critics, comments by late night hosts, DJ's, etc., when the fans can be just as brutal.

Sometimes that meanness does not extend only to Clay but they can turn on another fan on a dime for something meaningless.

here is an example of negativity.

the new album that is coming out someday that has stuff I have not heard yet sucks. <-- is that a good example?

[laughn]

I have no problem with constructive criticisms, and preferences for certain performances. If someone expresses their opinion as just that, "THEIR opinion" then there is no need for argument. However, many of the consistently negative posters in the fandom express their opinions as FACT- they didn't like the JNT 05, or "the work" as some derisively call it, so it is not just that THEY THEMSELVES didn't like it, it becomes an error in judgement on Clay's part. They don't like a certain hair color, style etc, so Clay better get rid of John D/Steeeve/Jamie and get someone who really knows how to cut hair, because for Gawds sake, if he goes out in public looking less than "Rock-Stah" gorgeous, he'll lose fans. The fan stories were a horrendous idea- (said even before any of them had been heard by the fandom) and were a huge mistake- well, at least those stories that were submitted or read by someone other than their friends/boardmates. You get the idea.

That is my point though, laljeterfan. Anyone, you me, any of us, posting on a message board is just as much an expert as any other. I never take what someone else says as fact, even if they tell me they are an expert with whatever it is they are talking about. I just don't. It is only their opinion. If someone says his hair sucks, so what? If I don't think it sucks, that comment isn't going to sway me. Honestly. If some people bitch more than others, meh. I chalk them up to just naturally bitchy people. LOL. These people only have as much authority as I ascribe to them. If I give their opinions no weight, then they have none.

aikim, I understand taunting, I do. I was overweight, had a lisp, a reading disability and was dirt poor to boot. I think Clay would understand your feelings also....but I also think Clay has heard far worse in real life than he ever will on one of his fan message boards....and I think even if he heard some negative comments, he keeps his own council, and would not be as affected as we let ourselves be.

jj :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[cindilu2]

I guess for me it always comes back to what I would or wouldn't say about a friend (I know, I know, Clay is not my friend *waves to KAndre*) in a public and derisive way. Clay is the object of our affection, the raison d'etre of the boards. Constantly critiquing his choices (sartorial, musical, religious - whatever) just isn't why I'm here.

I know the argument is that Clay is a public figure, that it's part of the deal to subject yourself to the whims and judgements of the public. That he asks for it. I just don't agree with it. I recall an occasion (on another board) where someone posted a bit of creativity (I believe it was a drawing if I recall correctly) and another person posted a mild comment about being 'not very good'. That person was ripped. to. shreds. But why? She wasn't mean or nasty about it - merely said it wasn't very good. And this person had posted it - hoped we liked it - invited comments. Essentially, she asked for it.

Why can't Clay be given the same respect and kindness that any member of the board expects?

[aikim]

<snip> Some posters do come across as bullying to me and no different than the kids Clay had to deal with in the schoolyard..bullies who can dish out, but can't take it and immediately run to the admins when someone calls them on their crap.

<snip>

I do think there is a lot of hypocrisy in the fandom; pissing and moaning over bad reviews from the critics, comments by late night hosts, DJ's, etc., when the fans can be just as brutal.

Sometimes that meanness does not extend only to Clay but they can turn on another fan on a dime for something meaningless.

here is an example of negativity.

the new album that is coming out someday that has stuff I have not heard yet sucks. <-- is that a good example?

Yes that would be a good example; pre-judging and making assumptions about things Clay has done or will do is a sore point for me.

Kim

[jumpingjacks]

I've never understood the need to say the same "critical" thing a number of times. I always want to post: "WE GET IT, YOU DIDN'T LIKE HIS HAIR!!!!"

I think the difference between constructive criticism and bullying is in the number of times you say it and how many minds you think you can change....

[Gibby]

I just got a call that one of my friends is being tested to see if her kidney is compatible!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am in shock....I had no idea she was even thinking about it.

Talk about a belated Christmas present. (tears of stunned surprise)

Yes!!! I will pray that she's compatible.

And while it is obvious that Clay is certainly aware that some of his fans seem to get their jollies picking him apart strand by strand, I don't think he spends a whole lot of time reading all of the "helpful suggestions" offered to him by his all-knowing fan base. I love the fact that he has said, in effect, "I know that there are those out there who don't like x, y or z that I am doing, but ya know what- I LIKE IT, so I'm gonna keep doing it."

Clay's blog the first night of CITH was a perfect example of this. He was so snarky and cute about it, but in actuality was telling critical fans that he wasn't going to listen to them or care what they were saying about CITH. I LOVE that blog. Clay even poked fun at himself, saying that Christmas isn't the time to grind on a backup singer or tell fart jokes! BWAH!! I love how Clay manages to tell people his views in an uncompromising but tactful and humorous way. What a guy!!

[aikim]

I've never understood the need to say the same "critical" thing a number of times. I always want to post: "WE GET IT, YOU DIDN'T LIKE HIS HAIR!!!!"

I think the difference between constructive criticism and bullying is in the number of times you say it and how many minds you think you can change....

Exactly!

Kim

[Bookwhore]

A question for the people who don't understand repeats: if Clay had a major role in a movie, would you go to see it more than once?

Hmmmm.....does he get naked in the movie?

[muskifest]

I don't believe Clay would be embarrassed, or bothered in any way, by negative comments. If he were that thin skinned he would have quit performing when his choir teacher gave him the boot years ago.

I think of all the damage done two years ago, this sensitivity to anything perceived as 'negative', is one of the worse things visited upon the fandom. I don't think someone with an opposing view should make you feel badly about your own and visa versa.

Loved your whole post, laughn, but this especially.

The metaphor you used about the child is interesting, too. Ironically, I did something today that I suppose some people might see as wrong or mean of me. Yesterday I got brought my mom over for Christmas Day. When I opened her door at the senior residence, I couldn't believe how awful it smelled---that dreaded 'old person' smell, musty, like dirty laundry and unkempt bodies in a closed room. And my mom's sweater wasn't clean and her hair was greasy. And she smelled bad.

And I was shocked. When she lived with us my hubby and I always gave her 'grief' whenever she'd go to the drug store or wherever because she always had to put on her powder and brush her hair and put on lipstick. And now she seemed to be oblivious to her personal hygiene slips. I know part of it must be the Alzheimer's progressing, but it really bugged me. And shocked me. And embarrassed me.

Anyway today I stopped by a drug store to pick up some things to freshen her room, went over to get her, then went to get a soda and got her favorite---the ice cream cone at MacDonald's! Then on the way back I said, "Okay, Mom. Let me tell you what I'd like to do now. I want to go back to your place and wait for you in your bedroom while you take a shower and wash your hair. While you're doing that I'm going to get all your dirty clothes together to get washed and I'm going to take your pillows and blankets and stuff home to wash. I bought some spray air freshener and a plug-in freshener to offset the fact that you keep your windows closed most of the time."

She looked at me and I said, "Mom, remember how we used to talk about Aunt Lily always having a bad smell about her? An 'old person' smell? We loved her to death but honestly, it was hard to hug her or be around her, remember? Well...I don't want you to be like that. And I bet you don't either. But lately when I stop by to see you, you seem not to be taking as good care of yourself as you used to. Yesterday...well, all of us---(insert my family members' names here) noticed a smell that I KNOW you wouldn't want to have. So let's get you cleaned up, okay?"

So I got her situated in the shower, washed her hair for her and then let her wash herself. I looked through her closet and dresser drawers and pulled out so many things that she'd folded and put back after wearing that had 'that smell' (instead of putting them in the dirty clothes bag) and put them all in the laundry bag to be picked up by the staff. I found a pair of jeans and a shirt that were clean and free of 'that smell'. I changed her sheets and mattress cover and piled them, along with her pillows and blankets, together to take home for cleaning. And then I collected all of her 'boyfriend's" clothes from their various perches around her room and got the staff to put them in his own room. They had 'that smell' about them, too.

When I left her sitting downstairs with her friends, she was clean and her hair was soft and pretty. When we left her room, the air was blowing her sheer curtains from the open window and the upholstered chair and the curtains had been sprayed with Febreeze. And I felt a whole lot better.

Now some people might say I was being too critical of my mom---after all, she's an old woman. Or that I was cruel to tell her she was smelling bad. Do I always smell good? She's not perfect, after all. She didn't ask for my opinion. And there's no easy way to tell somebody they stink. And she's my mother and how could I talk to her like that, etc.

But I did and I'm glad I did. It was actually difficult to enjoy being around her yesterday because of her poor hygiene and today when she was clean, I could see that pretty woman again. I didn't LOVE her less yesterday, but a superficial thing such as her odor interfered with my true appreciation of her. And that was sad to me.

What's my point? I forgot. heh.

[laljeterfan]

I have no problem with constructive criticisms, and preferences for certain performances. If someone expresses their opinion as just that, "THEIR opinion" then there is no need for argument. However, many of the consistently negative posters in the fandom express their opinions as FACT- they didn't like the JNT 05, or "the work" as some derisively call it, so it is not just that THEY THEMSELVES didn't like it, it becomes an error in judgement on Clay's part. They don't like a certain hair color, style etc, so Clay better get rid of John D/Steeeve/Jamie and get someone who really knows how to cut hair, because for Gawds sake, if he goes out in public looking less than "Rock-Stah" gorgeous, he'll lose fans. The fan stories were a horrendous idea- (said even before any of them had been heard by the fandom) and were a huge mistake- well, at least those stories that were submitted or read by someone other than their friends/boardmates. You get the idea.

That is my point though, laljeterfan. Anyone, you me, any of us, posting on a message board is just as much an expert as any other. I never take what someone else says as fact, even if they tell me they are an expert with whatever it is they are talking about. I just don't. It is only their opinion. If someone says his hair sucks, so what? If I don't think it sucks, that comment isn't going to sway me. Honestly. If some people bitch more than others, meh. I chalk them up to just naturally bitchy people. LOL. These people only have as much authority as I ascribe to them. If I give their opinions no weight, then they have none.

Oh trust me, I give their opinions NO WEIGHT whatsoever! In fact, even on positive mentions, I find I need to see something for myself to judge its merits. If someone says "This is the BEST version of AIW in the history of mankind!", I may go to check it out- but it doesn't necessarily mean I'll agree. As far as the negative statements go, though, it's often the cumulative effect.........

I've never understood the need to say the same "critical" thing a number of times. I always want to post: "WE GET IT, YOU DIDN'T LIKE HIS HAIR!!!!"

I think the difference between constructive criticism and bullying is in the number of times you say it and how many minds you think you can change....

I always kind of feel that when my main recollection of a certain poster is their vehement and oft-stated dislike for a particular thing Clay does, it leads me to want to scrooooooollllll through EVERYTHING they say.

Clay's blog the first night of CITH was a perfect example of this. He was so snarky and cute about it, but in actuality was telling critical fans that he wasn't going to listen to them or care what they were saying about CITH. I LOVE that blog. Clay even poked fun at himself, saying that Christmas isn't the time to grind on a backup singer or tell fart jokes! BWAH!! I love how Clay manages to tell people his views in an uncompromising but tactful and humorous way. What a guy!!

I LOVED that blog! I also loved it when the fandom was up in arms about the rumored Clay/ Kim L/Ruben concert tour and was demanding that Clay come out of hiding to satisfy their concerns about the subject, and he came on and blogged about something totally different! Although in hindsight, it seemed that that may not have been done on purpose- he may not have been aware of the collective angst of the Claynation at that time. And some of the responses to that unknowing blog of his curled my toes- they were rude and insulting and yeah, I would imagine somewhat hurtful to Clay. He is strong and stubborn, but he has feelings. It never ceases to amaze me the nasty things that some fans say- over, and over and over, about him.

[jumpingjacks]

I LOVED that blog! I also loved it when the fandom was up in arms about the rumored Clay/ Kim L/Ruben concert tour and was demanding that Clay come out of hiding to satisfy their concerns about the subject, and he came on and blogged about something totally different! Although in hindsight, it seemed that that may not have been done on purpose- he may not have been aware of the collective angst of the Claynation at that time. And some of the responses to that unknowing blog of his curled my toes- they were rude and insulting and yeah, I would imagine somewhat hurtful to Clay. He is strong and stubborn, but he has feelings. It never ceases to amaze me the nasty things that some fans say- over, and over and over, about him.

Some should be ashamed of the things they wrote on that blog...including a couple from my former home board. Sheesh..talk about an over reaction.

I still hope he did it intentionally 'cause that's just the type of nasty person I am but I'm pretty sure it was an accident.

muski, what you did and said you did out of love. I think there is a huge difference. I don't think these people find it hard at all to rip Clay to shreds if they think they can get away with it. They say they are doing it out of love...I don't buy it. There is one person (who is easy to pick out since her opinion of his hair is well known) that I can't believe acts like she does on the boards...honestly...I don't know how she stays married OR has a relationship with her kids. She is cold....

[laughn]

What's my point? I forgot. heh.

I think the point was that you love your mom to pieces and it shows. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[Clayzorback]

Hummm, I guess, after some deliberation, I figured I'd jump in with my opinion and be done with it.

I figure we're all allowed our thoughts, and depending what day it it, I'm sure what irked me yesterday might not even show up on my radar today. I figure that's how we humans are. I would hope that the people I post with daily would understand my moods. That said...

I have more trouble understanding the people who have trouble understanding the 'negative.' To tell you where I'm coming from, I work with very young children. It's been documented that most people who beat their children in public do so because they perceive that the child has done something to cause them embarrassment. They then beat their child for that perceived embarrassment. They don't understand that the beating they are inflicting is far more detrimental to both the child's well being and the perception others have of them...far more than the actual negative act the child did in the first place.

I know this sounds like I'm going off the deep end, but I hope you can follow the dots in my brain. LOL.

It seems to me like some fans are embarrassed by negative statements. They don't want some un-named others to see those comments. They don't want Clay to see the negative. They don't want to see those comments themselves. However, I think that if a person has something they are not happy with, or something they are worried about, if they could just make their statement without others complaining about the complaint, then the whole business would be done. Their point would be duly noted, and we move on. Once others jump in to argue why they thought the complaint was wrong or explain how their thoughts are different, to me it's like beating the child.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you still doesn't make either one of you right...or wrong. (as I'm sure a whole bunch of folks who are rollin' their eyes at this post right now will attest to)

I don't believe Clay would be embarrassed, or bothered in any way, by negative comments. If he were that thin skinned he would have quit performing when his choir teacher gave him the boot years ago.

I think of all the damage done two years ago, this sensitivity to anything perceived as 'negative', is one of the worse things visited upon the fandom. I don't think someone with an opposing view should make you feel badly about your own and visa versa.

I'm quoting your entire post. One of the best posts I've seen in a long time. Bravo!!!!!

Some fans want to protect Clay's feelings and that is not what Clay wants for his OFC. He set it up for free speech. How quickly people forget that he blogged stating that he doesn't mind the negative, he sometimes learns from it and changes things up, because of it. He said to just ignore if something bothers you. (Hee! That's something I need to work on myself.) Some fans just don't want Clay to see them saying anything negative because they worry he won't let them win a meet and greet or they are afraid he won't like them. They want Clay to think they are the bestest fans and everyone else are just trolls.

I get tired of hearing some fans say "Clay has never disappointed me", "Clay is a gift and he shares his wonderful gift with us. We are so Lucky." The way I look at it, is that Clay's fans are the ones doing the gift giving. We are giving him an opportunity to have a career by our support of him. I think it is unrealistic to say Clay's voice was awesome and perfection when he clearly had trouble hitting notes and when he clearly messes up the words. I don't think Clay is going to give any credence to posters who say he was perfect, when he himself knows perfectly well he messed up. Give the guy some credit. He is going to scroll right over all those "he's so perfect posts," to find posts with an objective opinion. When he truly is interested in what his fans think. I suspect that most of the time he doesn't give a shit what we say. To me, though, trying to make excuses for when he messes up or constantly stating his fans will buy anything he does, sends Clay the wrong messgage and gives him a false sense of security. IMHO, I don't think that is a good thing.

I don't have a problem if people want to wear rose colored glasses. The problem I have is when those people want to put a poster on the defensive, when they say they didn't like something, or speak the truth about a performance. I don't like it when the rose colored glasses fans orchestrate plans to run the negative people off the boards and out of the fandom. Just like laughn said that has done more harm to this fandom (and ran more fans off IMHO) than anything else. I just don't understand why people can't see this.

JJ there is only one concert I went to see two of and that his solo tour. Every concert, besides that one, I have only attended once. I thank God Clay has people who are willing to spend the time and money to attend multiples, but it isn't going to be me. That is unless he starts touring closer. Even if I had tons of money, I don't have a job that allows me that kind of freedom to take off whenever I want for concerts. I thank God, though, that he has fans who can. I don't watch the same movies over and over and never attend a concert more than once. I would go an artist more than once, but usually not in the same tour. If I watch a movie or read a book for a second time, it is usually after a few years. LOL

[Claygasm]

Claygasm said

And I prefer my glasses clear so I can see things as they really are - warts and all.

Hmmmm....crux of the matter, maybe - what some see as a wart, others regard as a beauty mark.

And when someone says no, that is a beauty mark, not a wart, their glasses are just as clear as yours, they just view things differently.

So "things as they really are" is subjective, as you said, that is all it is. Sadly, expressing differing opinions gets regarded as telling people they are wrong.

I agree, which is why I said in my post that someone else may see the same thing as I do and come away with a completely different honest opinion and that's ok. But I don't think that is the same thing as wearing rose colored glasses. I interpret that phrase as meaning someone NEVER sees anything wrong with ANYTHING Clay. I find that idea totally unrealistic. NO ONE in life is perfect 100% of the time. I find it a bit difficult to believe there is anyone in this fandom who can honestly say there is nothing Clay has ever done, worn, said etc. that they didn't like or didn't disagree with. And if they do say that, then that is wearing rose colored glasses and I do not believe they are seeing things as they really are. But hey, if that is what makes them happy, then I say go for it! We all should do what makes us happy. Just don't criticize others if they don't look at the world the same way you do.

Maybe it's just semantics, but that is my interpretation of that phrase.

I've never understood the need to say the same "critical" thing a number of times. I always want to post: "WE GET IT, YOU DIDN'T LIKE HIS HAIR!!!!"

I think the difference between constructive criticism and bullying is in the number of times you say it and how many minds you think you can change....

Again, I agree - but it works both ways. Every time someone posts "I HATE HIS HAIR!!!!" and the other side feels compelled to criticize them for daring to say such a thing, it just invites the hair-hater to defend their position. And every time someone says "I LOVE HIS HAIR!!!" and the other side feels compelled to inform that they are wrong, it just invites the hair-lover to defend their position.

And the poor dead horse keeps getting beaten. :Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius:

I think someone said earlier that if people just let people have their say and be done with it, things would not get bogged done. So often I have seen baiting - on both sides. We just all need to recognize everyone sees things differently and one opinion is as valid as the other.

As for the professional Clay criticizers and those who try to tell him how to run his career (and no, I am NOT one of them ), as a friend once told me long ago - although I still don't always follow her advise - the scroll button is your friend.

And jj - how wonderful! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

[jumpingjacks]

I don't ever say anything back to the hair haters 'cause...well...it wouldn't do a bit of good and I, personally, don't find hair worth killing a horse for.

I think I'm not a well known person in the fandom because I keep my distance and I don't respond to most posts, negative or positive.

I'm not an "EEEEEEE-er" or a "Thrum" person....that word actually squicks me out a bit.

I read everything....I just don't feel the need to respond to either the overly positive or the (what I see as) overly negative.

It bugs me but not enough to call someone out over it....'cause....really it's all about me and my opinion!

:lmaosmiley-1:

[Couch Tomato]

I guess for me it always comes back to what I would or wouldn't say about a friend (I know, I know, Clay is not my friend *waves to KAndre*) in a public and derisive way. Clay is the object of our affection, the raison d'etre of the boards. Constantly critiquing his choices (sartorial, musical, religious - whatever) just isn't why I'm here.

I know the argument is that Clay is a public figure, that it's part of the deal to subject yourself to the whims and judgements of the public. That he asks for it. I just don't agree with it. I recall an occasion (on another board) where someone posted a bit of creativity (I believe it was a drawing if I recall correctly) and another person posted a mild comment about being 'not very good'. That person was ripped. to. shreds. But why? She wasn't mean or nasty about it - merely said it wasn't very good. And this person had posted it - hoped we liked it - invited comments. Essentially, she asked for it.

Why can't Clay be given the same respect and kindness that any member of the board expects?

Cindilu we've talked about this before and I understand where you are coming from but I find this at one end of the spectrum. I don't constantly criticize Clay but I have said from time to time I don't like something ...whispery breathy My Grownup Christmas List. I don't particularly care for the blonde hair. Whatever. I'll talk about a friend's hair as well. I talk about my own. It's a nappy mess half the time and I don't care. I don't think either of my comments hurt Clay. I think Clay would respect honest opinion with regards to something important but ignores the little things we talk about from day to day. . I don't harp on things I don't like but to not be able to say publicly I don't like something is not a board I would enjoy. I think there's a difference between never saying anything critical about Clay and running to OFC to loudly proclaim something crap and then saying it again and again. I try to get my opinion out there and then not regurgitate it over and over. Nor do I argue with someone over their opinion because after awhile it's about arguing for arguing sake or trying to change minds than being about Clay. I think of message boards for fans and I honestly don't think anybody is looking in this neck of the woods for opinions of Clay. Now, OFC is a different story. It's a FAN CLUB and I'm surprised at what what is allowed there but it's HIS board and his choice. Bottom line..there is not just two extremes here..there are all sorts of stops in the middle and it takes some compromise, patience, to deal with something with so many differnet points of view. I think it's worth it to do so.

I agree it's somewhat hyprocritical to be able to say ACAC was not my cup of tea and not your skit is not my cup of tea on a message board but I'm not there for fans of Clay. I'm there for Clay. I'm not interested in discussing their works of art.

[muskifest]

"Thrum" person....that word actually squicks me out a bit.

What am I missing? What's a 'Thrum' person? And why is it squick worthy?

[jumpingjacks]

"Thrum" person....that word actually squicks me out a bit.

What am I missing? What's a 'Thrum' person? And why is it squick worthy?

dancermom always says Clay makes her "thrum"....in all the girly places. Now, I have no problem with saying I had to change my underoos/panties during intermission but there is just something about "thrum" that bothers me...

I'm weird...I'm willing to be the first to admit it.

[ToldForThis]

I just got a call that one of my friends is being tested to see if her kidney is compatible!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am in shock....I had no idea she was even thinking about it.

Talk about a belated Christmas present. (tears of stunned surprise)

That is wonderful...... will have you in my thoughts.

[muskifest]

"Thrum" person....that word actually squicks me out a bit.

What am I missing? What's a 'Thrum' person? And why is it squick worthy?

dancermom always says Clay makes her "thrum"....in all the girly places. Now, I have no problem with saying I had to change my underoos/panties during intermission but there is just something about "thrum" that bothers me...

I'm weird...I'm willing to be the first to admit it.

Oh. I see. It IS interesting, isn't it, what squicks some and tantalizes others? Personally, I have no girly places. I have womanly places. But yes....Clay is quite good at making them thr....er, experience pleasant sensations.

[laljeterfan]

Claygasm said

And I prefer my glasses clear so I can see things as they really are - warts and all.

Hmmmm....crux of the matter, maybe - what some see as a wart, others regard as a beauty mark.

And when someone says no, that is a beauty mark, not a wart, their glasses are just as clear as yours, they just view things differently.

So "things as they really are" is subjective, as you said, that is all it is. Sadly, expressing differing opinions gets regarded as telling people they are wrong.

I agree, which is why I said in my post that someone else may see the same thing as I do and come away with a completely different honest opinion and that's ok. But I don't think that is the same thing as wearing rose colored glasses. I interpret that phrase as meaning someone NEVER sees anything wrong with ANYTHING Clay. I find that idea totally unrealistic. NO ONE in life is perfect 100% of the time. I find it a bit difficult to believe there is anyone in this fandom who can honestly say there is nothing Clay has ever done, worn, said etc. that they didn't like or didn't disagree with. And if they do say that, then that is wearing rose colored glasses and I do not believe they are seeing things as they really are. But hey, if that is what makes them happy, then I say go for it! We all should do what makes us happy. Just don't criticize others if they don't look at the world the same way you do.

Maybe it's just semantics, but that is my interpretation of that phrase.

As for the professional Clay criticizers and those who try to tell him how to run his career (and no, I am NOT one of them ), as a friend once told me long ago - although I still don't always follow her advise - the scroll button is your friend.

As per the "rose-colored glasses":- luckily for me, there hasn't been a whole hell of a lot that Clay has done that I haven't enjoyed. I did post a month or so ago about one thing from a couple years back that DIDN'T thrill me, and I knew that I was in a very small minority on that issue. I guess the difference is that, for me- if there is something that I don't enjoy, I just don't feel the need to go blaring it all over the boards. Yeah, yeah, I know- that's the whole purpose of HAVING the boards, right? To express our feelings about Clay? Well, yeah, but just as I wouldn't particularly enjoy having my boss at work point out EVERY SINGLE LITTLE THING I HAVE EVER DONE WRONG ON THE JOB- including my failures to dot every i and cross every t- I don't particularly enjoy reading negative opinions on everything that Clay does either. I find it very draining, when I mainly come to the boards to keep up on information, and to hopefully share in the fun of being a fan. And while the scroll button is a wonderful invention- as was the "ignore" button on a board or two that I frequented in the past- it doesn't always do the job. Because that post that you scrolled by can then be quoted and requoted ad nauseum- both by people who agree with it, and those who take issue with it.

[jumpingjacks]

"Thrum" person....that word actually squicks me out a bit.

What am I missing? What's a 'Thrum' person? And why is it squick worthy?

dancermom always says Clay makes her "thrum"....in all the girly places. Now, I have no problem with saying I had to change my underoos/panties during intermission but there is just something about "thrum" that bothers me...

I'm weird...I'm willing to be the first to admit it.

Oh. I see. It IS interesting, isn't it, what squicks some and tantalizes others? Personally, I have no girly places. I have womanly places. But yes....Clay is quite good at making them thr....er, experience pleasant sensations.

I call it my crotch, but hey, that's just me! I may have some odd name attachment issues with the word, dunno...

[luckiest1]

As per the "rose-colored glasses":- luckily for me, there hasn't been a whole hell of a lot that Clay has done that I haven't enjoyed. I did post a month or so ago about one thing from a couple years back that DIDN'T thrill me, and I knew that I was in a very small minority on that issue. I guess the difference is that, for me- if there is something that I don't enjoy, I just don't feel the need to go blaring it all over the boards. Yeah, yeah, I know- that's the whole purpose of HAVING the boards, right? To express our feelings about Clay? Well, yeah, but just as I wouldn't particularly enjoy having my boss at work point out EVERY SINGLE LITTLE THING I HAVE EVER DONE WRONG ON THE JOB- including my failures to dot every i and cross every t- I don't particularly enjoy reading negative opinions on everything that Clay does either. I find it very draining, when I mainly come to the boards to keep up on information, and to hopefully share in the fun of being a fan. And while the scroll button is a wonderful invention- as was the "ignore" button on a board or two that I frequented in the past- it doesn't always do the job. Because that post that you scrolled by can then be quoted and requoted ad nauseum- both by people who agree with it, and those who take issue with it.

This is me in a nutshell, too. No, I don't love everything Clay does (really, I don't) but I just don't feel the need to post about it. Others do. I scroll the best I can, and I avoid places that seem to thrive on constant criticism. That's just my way of enjoying my fandom.

Thrum? Heh, I think I resemble that comment....especially on some of the low notes.