#26: "Irreverent, surprisingly fearless, a total delight and a surprise!"

[playbiller]

Disagreeng with people - I don't followthe standard path for reasons I don't understand, but when I disagree with people, I tell them directly, if I am allowed. There was a long period when I was not allowedto respond. I know some people would say that was an interpretation, but when I disagreed with some popular posters and posted it was either edited by follower mods or I would be attacked by the mass of deluded lockstep posters to the point where I just stopped posting in most Clay places (and some people wish I still did not). I don't feel the atmosphere is that same and when I disagree with people, I can generally do it directly without any ill will. I will still mock general attitudes that are pervasive in teh fandom and not restricted to one board or another and express my fears of the futre (I don't want to know anything about future albums or evealuate the work of his PR people!!!!)

EEEE, the video on WRAL is so intelligent! how odd for TV!

[wandacleo]

I don't get excited about Clay's pictures because fan pictures aren't posed, AND so much depends upon the camera angle, lighting, and lens. If you don't have it all together, your portrait can come out distorted--as in some of the straight face-on pictures of Clay. Big deal.

Since my one and only picture with Clay has him looking just charming and me looking as though someone just poked me in the ass with a cattle prod...I rest my case.

As for the eyelliner. WTF?? The guy runs back stage, wipes his face, takes off his wig, jumps out of his costume, throws on his clothes (he could skip this part to save time), and runs out the stage door, I don't get people fussing because some of the eyeliner remains. Has anyone of us seen him with eyeliner when he's NOT performing? Anyhow, his eyes. His call.

[Marilyon98]

As for the eyelliner. WTF?? The guy runs back stage, wipes his face, takes off his wig, jumps out of his costume, throws on his clothes (he could skip this part to save time), and runs out the stage door, I don't get people fussing because some of the eyeliner remains. Has anyone of us seen him with eyeliner when he's NOT performing? Anyhow, his eyes. His call.

Hear,Hear!!!!

[Desertrose]

Disagreeng with people - I don't followthe standard path for reasons I don't understand, but when I disagree with people, I tell them directly, if I am allowed. There was a long period when I was not allowedto respond. I know some people would say that was an interpretation, but when I disagreed with some popular posters and posted it was either edited by follower mods or I would be attacked by the mass of deluded lockstep posters to the point where I just stopped posting in most Clay places (and some people wish I still did not). I don't feel the atmosphere is that same and when I disagree with people, I can generally do it directly without any ill will. I will still mock general attitudes that are pervasive in teh fandom and not restricted to one board or another and express my fears of the futre (I don't want to know anything about future albums or evealuate the work of his PR people!!!!)

EEEE, the video on WRAL is so intelligent! how odd for TV!

Play,

I like the way you disagree with other posters because you stand by your points and you do not personally attack them. I can understand you mocking "general attitudes," because they are "pervasive" in this fandom. I have no idea if other fan groups for other artists have the same general attitudes because I have never been a devoted fan until Clay happened to us. But I also have problems with the "insiders" and those who claim to know way more than the rest of us. I got the chance to chat with you in Vegas. I was seated to your right at the breakfast. I enjoyed our chat.

As for the eyeliner, I can't understand why it has become an issue, either for or against. The man rushes out to sign playbills and interact with fan that are waiting for him in cold NY. Could it possibly be that he is being considerate of his fans and not making them wait until he removes the stage makeup? Obviously, he is comfortable with who he is, and probably gives his fans credit for realizing that the makeup is for his role in Spamalot, and not his regular "look." Even if he decided to wear eyeliner from now on, so what? It does not take away from what the man is and what he stands for.

Ok, long post forl me. I usually lurk.

[Ansamcw]

Just curious cos y'all know I don't go around too much on the other boards....but is the eyeliner really an issue?

as far as i can see on this board we have some people that said they prefer him without the eyeliner...to me thats not an issue...thats just a preference. But are there fans questioning his use of it?or wondering why he is using it? or saying he should use it?

[Gibby]

As for the eyelliner. WTF?? The guy runs back stage, wipes his face, takes off his wig, jumps out of his costume, throws on his clothes (he could skip this part to save time), and runs out the stage door, I don't get people fussing because some of the eyeliner remains. Has anyone of us seen him with eyeliner when he's NOT performing? Anyhow, his eyes. His call.

I think we should suggest that he skip that part, don't you, Wanda?

AAARRRRGGGG, my credit card just took a huge hit. We have a plumber here this morning working on a couple of problems, and they are having to replace the hot water heater and the kitchen faucet! Damn! We have some money in savings for house repairs, but not enough to pay the whole freaking bill.

[djs111]

I kind of thought the issue was the way in which some of the unhappiness at a particular "opinion" was expressed - I likesssss the eyeliner!

In fact, I find Eddie Izzard all kinds of hot when he is in full regalia, too! Clay just looks a bit emo or goth or something, but yeah, I think he just is trying to get to the fans quickly.

No good deed goes unpunished, though.

[wandacleo]

As for the eyelliner. WTF?? The guy runs back stage, wipes his face, takes off his wig, jumps out of his costume, throws on his clothes (he could skip this part to save time), and runs out the stage door, I don't get people fussing because some of the eyeliner remains. Has anyone of us seen him with eyeliner when he's NOT performing? Anyhow, his eyes. His call.

I think we should suggest that he skip that part, don't you, Wanda?

AAARRRRGGGG, my credit card just took a huge hit. We have a plumber here this morning working on a couple of problems, and they are having to replace the hot water heater and the kitchen faucet! Damn! We have some money in savings for house repairs, but not enough to pay the whole freaking bill.

Truism: Bills always come.

[luckiest1]

As for the eyeliner, I can't understand why it has become an issue, either for or against. The man rushes out to sign playbills and interact with fan that are waiting for him in cold NY. Could it possibly be that he is being considerate of his fans and not making them wait until he removes the stage makeup? Obviously, he is comfortable with who he is, and probably gives his fans credit for realizing that the makeup is for his role in Spamalot, and not his regular "look." Even if he decided to wear eyeliner from now on, so what? It does not take away from what the man is and what he stands for.

Ok, long post forl me. I usually lurk.

Hee, you should post more often. WORD!

[merryclay]

As for the eyeliner, I can't understand why it has become an issue, either for or against. The man rushes out to sign playbills and interact with fan that are waiting for him in cold NY. Could it possibly be that he is being considerate of his fans and not making them wait until he removes the stage makeup? Obviously, he is comfortable with who he is, and probably gives his fans credit for realizing that the makeup is for his role in Spamalot, and not his regular "look." Even if he decided to wear eyeliner from now on, so what? It does not take away from what the man is and what he stands for.

Ok, long post forl me. I usually lurk.

Hee, you should post more often. WORD!

Word----- That's just all a bunch of bullcrap to me.

[Couch Tomato]

sorry to interrupt the eyeliner talk..but I didn't think he stopped after a performance to put some on before running out to greet the fans. From all accounts Clay is coming to the line quickly..or maybe people would prefer that he treat the line like he did tours and take up to 2 hours to come.

Maybe Dudley wouldn't want Clay to get bigger than her girl, Carrie. Sometimes it's hard to keep your real feelings in tow.

ADMIN NOTE:

I am uncomfortable discussing a person's motivation when they really are not able to defend them self. If we are going to discuss other fans posts and behavior I rather the focus be on their opinion...or on how they acted rather than take them on personally. I really do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion without being accused of bias or having other agenda.

sorry- I guess I got a little carried away with my Clay love.

First of all a RED Admin note?

I want people to understand where we are coming from so forgive this rambling post. I understand that what I'm about to say may be hair splitting at its finest but for those who are confused right now I want you to understand. Feel free to ask me any questions.

When FCA started (shut up heee) we had a long list of rules cobbled together from other boards. After a year I revisted those rules and laughed because they were so not us. We had grown organically and come up with our own board culture. One of the rules we struck down was no board on board talk. Oh and I understand that in some corners we are treated with disdain because it is just considered crass. Well what I have discovered when grown women are allowed to discuss really anything they want it actually leads to meaning conversation. And even a good blowout allows the air to be cleared and not fester. So I don't really care if people at other boards get on their high horse about how we run our board.

However, while we may go on and on about the fandom and experts and insiders most of the talk is in general terms. There have been exceptions. When Clay chose to stop his show to call out somebody - well no lid was going to be put on that name here. Hockeydonna, baby mama and that whole mess --people need to be forewarned about them. I'm not posting this to make a big deal out of it....it wasn't but please don't have a running conversation here about specific events on other boards especially if it's encouraging participation in said conversations. (are you more confused). And then also please steer away from the good fan/bad fan/motivation discussions (which has never been a theme here). And here's where the hair splitting comes in, if the recap had just been brought here we could have dicussed it or parts of it as we do any other recap. Or as Bookwhore did, just bring over a question for our discussion.

Anyway, i hope no one person takes any of this personally but I just saw some confusion about what's the difference and wanted to clear it up.

Now speaking as a member...and of said recap - I don't get what was so bad about it. It seemed clear to me that Monty Python was not in any way something she considered herself an expert and it was generally a positive opinion. FYI I read this at CH. And certainly not something that warrants a questioning of fan status. Merryclay I really have no idea what Carrie would have to do with her opinion on Spamalot.

Secondly, when it comes to experts - ok I know I show a disdain for a lot of but in reality it's more that people follow them blindly without critically thinking for themselves that bothered me. (oh what, Clay is still with RCA? duh!) And I think we need to get to the day that they are treated like any other poster -not worse, not better -- because some of the info is interesting or good to know.

Like Thankful said, It seems that was happening and that's a yay for the fandom not a black mark against any poster as they also have a right to their opinion.

How we are going to handle real reviews. I read some blog this morning from some not a clay fan that went to the show. Said he was the best actor in the show - that he was fabulous...didn't know he was funny blah blah blah but had five words that mentioned effeminiate as in a description of Sir Robin of which she was familiar and said Clay was perfect for it. No judgement. I pray that little insignificant blog isn't overrun by well meaning Clay fans trying to explain or "defend".

[wandacleo]

couchie, you are wise

Could you post a link to the positive blog.

[merryclay]

The thing that impresses me about Clay in Spamalot is all the NJU reports. I think that's so healthy for Clay's career for all these new people to see how multi-talented he really is. Another thing is the fact that almost all of the fan reviews were great. Now you know, the entire fandom seldom agrees on anything. so that was really cool to me. CT, I saw that positive blog, somewhere, and the cool thing is that it was a casual mention about how good Clay was, but the blog was not intended to be about Clay at all. It didn't seem like it was someone just looking for hits from us.

[playbiller]

I read a blog of someonethat did not like Clay either , but thought he "flounced" nicely through the role. I would hesitate to bringthat blog only because it is just a person and I would hate for the fandom to visit and argue with them. If they find it themselves, that would be fine, but I find that sometimes when I link to some places, people just click on it and follow - except some of the voting ones! Isn't it enough toknow there are some pople who don't like Clay like him in this role for what ever dumb reason? It does seem that, although Clay was percieved as good in this role, they are still not going to cut him any slack. I just hope the business connections he is making works out.

Want to talk generalities - I don't really care if some people like Clay and others don't, since taste is personal, but it drives me crazy for some fans to be "surprised" that he was not playing Clay Aiken in this role. Is that lowered expectations? he should be congratulated for acting? It is like damning with great praise to my ears. I have heard people thinking the part should have been made larger or ....... so Clay could be the star, but it does not seem to have a basis in reality. I guess after going to so many concerts people expect him to be central, but I think he warned us that it was an ensemble.

I am glad that Clay's knees are holding out though. How sad is it that I have started evaluating the different faces other actors have at different moments. I really don't know which face is correct, as any could wor,k and you have to wonder if they are thinking of the equivalent of hot pockets while doing their roles.

[jumpingjacks]

Nothing to see here...move along.

[luckiest1]

However, while we may go on and on about the fandom and experts and insiders most of the talk is in general terms. There have been exceptions. When Clay chose to stop his show to call out somebody - well no lid was going to be put on that name here. Hockeydonna, baby mama and that whole mess --people need to be forewarned about them. I'm not posting this to make a big deal out of it....it wasn't but please don't have a running conversation here about specific events on other boards especially if it's encouraging participation in said conversations. (are you more confused). And then also please steer away from the good fan/bad fan/motivation discussions (which has never been a theme here). And here's where the hair splitting comes in, if the recap had just been brought here we could have dicussed it or parts of it as we do any other recap. Or as Bookwhore did, just bring over a question for our discussion.

Yep, one thing that I wish is that people would bring things over that they wish to comment on or discuss. Now, by that I don't mean I want to see the board swamped with some of the things many of us came here to get away from...but it's easier to read something and debunk it than to wonder what the big deal is, and then feel the need to go and search it out, just to participate in the conversation.

Now, those NJU type blogs, I don't think we should put links up to them, because I pity the poor people who have no clue about the Clay Nation getting bombarded by comments. I'd rather quotes just be brought over if they are relevant, with no link. JMO.

[FearofH2O]

Good explaination Jumping Jacks. But this particularly stood out for me:

I'm not a lemming and I get sick of being treated like one

.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people that need someone to lead them. I'm not sure if they are insecure in their own opinions or have never been allowed to have any. Poor Mr. Fear has lived with me expressing my own way too much. But he's none the worse for it.

What I tried to say yesterday in another poorly written post, is that I was concerned that many people would just say "Yes Ma'm" to Dudly and change their opinions to suit her's. I was glad to see that was not happening. That was totally her opinion, not worth more or less than anyone elses. I was also glad to see it was not going to be another Hockeydonna or Huskerfalcon directive that everyone would believe and follow. After all they were the experts. Fortunately people can learn from past mistakes and adjust accordingly.

[00lsee]

couchie, a few comments in that review just rubbed this cat's fur the wrong way, that's all. Probably oversensitive to perceived patronization.

[merryclay]

However, while we may go on and on about the fandom and experts and insiders most of the talk is in general terms. There have been exceptions. When Clay chose to stop his show to call out somebody - well no lid was going to be put on that name here. Hockeydonna, baby mama and that whole mess --people need to be forewarned about them. I'm not posting this to make a big deal out of it....it wasn't but please don't have a running conversation here about specific events on other boards especially if it's encouraging participation in said conversations. (are you more confused). And then also please steer away from the good fan/bad fan/motivation discussions (which has never been a theme here). And here's where the hair splitting comes in, if the recap had just been brought here we could have dicussed it or parts of it as we do any other recap. Or as Bookwhore did, just bring over a question for our discussion.

Yep, one thing that I wish is that people would bring things over that they wish to comment on or discuss. Now, by that I don't mean I want to see the board swamped with some of the things many of us came here to get away from...but it's easier to read something and debunk it than to wonder what the big deal is, and then feel the need to go and search it out, just to participate in the conversation.

Now, those NJU type blogs, I don't think we should put links up to them, because I pity the poor people who have no clue about the Clay Nation getting bombarded by comments. I'd rather quotes just be brought over if they are relevant, with no link. JMO.

I do agree with you-- I never click on a link or go to hater's sites or post anywhere like that. I never have, I never will. I've never been to madman's blog. Never have, never will. I'm a peace loving fan. I just want Clay to be happy and do well. I want to support Clay in the small ways that I can.

Sharing info. in the way you said seems best. I guess personal discernment is the key in deciding if it's worthwhile.

[jumpingjacks]

couchie, a few comments in that review just rubbed this cat's fur the wrong way, that's all. Probably oversensitive to perceived patronization.

Exactly...and you said it in less than a 1,000 words! I could take lessons from you!

[luckiest1]

For what it's worth, I was not talking about hater's blogs.....I think we've done a pretty good job of ignoring that stuff on this board, not giving it the time of day. I was talking about comments found on sites or people's blogs that were not Clay centric, but mentioned him, like the one couchie was referring to.

[merryclay]

For what it's worth, I was not talking about hater's blogs.....I think we've done a pretty good job of ignoring that stuff on this board, not giving it the time of day. I was talking about comments found on sites or people's blogs that were not Clay centric, but mentioned him, like the one couchie was referring to.

I wasn't talking about hater's blogs either but since you mentioned how dumb it was for people to give some of that neg. stuff hits, I thought I would mention it. No, I was talking about good information, not hater's stuff. I don't think any of us would ever even think of that. Maybe, I was just filling in my profile. LOL!!!!

[Ansamcw]

JJ first of all, although I am a CV member I do not go there regularly so I cannot really say whether you gave an accurate picture of the CV admin but I respect that is your experience and your opinion. However...at this point I would like to end that discussion because I really don;t feel like going into how other people run their board.

We do not have a say on what you post on other boards, that was never the problem. We were simply concerned that the discussion yesterday about posting a response will be seen as plotting by members of this board against another poster on another board. I know that wasn't the intention but the admins felt we had to step in before it gets further.

I do agree that it is frustrating when other fans follow the words of certain posters. I do know that at times its a domino effect. Once someone that is "well respected" in the board posts something negative...then others follow. Although its true that some are simply being lemmings...I do think that at times this simply give others the permission to post unpopular opinion that they had in the first place. I've been in this position before...posting against the popular POV. Its difficult at times cos you know you will get jumped on...but a lot of times I will get pms from people thanking me for saying something they didn't have the courage to say.

With regards to experts... I do acknowledge that there are people with more info about this industry. I am glad when they share that...but then I still make my own opinion based on the info we have. NO ONE...can be an expert on Clay's business because we do not know what he actually wants and what they are actually dealing with.

[jumpingjacks]

Practice what I preach. It's just not worth it.

[liney23]

JJ... don't think anyone called you a troublemaker or even hinted at it. My first response on reading your posts about this was, "oh, she's mad."

I, too, didn't find dudley's review all bad. Just rolled my eyes at the "subtle" comment. This is Monty Python... pretty sure subtle acting is not in their vocabulary. There were a lot of dissenters pointing that out to her, also. Her opinion... their opinions.

There may be some lemmings still around, but a lot less than before Morristown. Thank goodness for that!

That WRAL interview was great! You put that next to his performance on Broadway and you see a beautifully complex man who is both talented and caring. And, very frequently gorgeous!