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djs111
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Everybody processes things diffferently because of their own experiences and filters and whatever.

Just the sight of a Bush creeps me out - long before the current administration. Barbara and all the guys - an ugly entitled arrogance.

Got an extra dose, havng jeb for gov..

Me too, and we're not alone.

My dislike of Oprah started when she was just starting out in Chicago. I have seen or heard nothing to change that.

However, I have noticed that if I express dislike for Oprah or Obama (who I first saw in 2006, has not a damn thing to do with Hillary), I usually get whacked with the racism stick or the just-jellus-of-rich-people stick, like they are not real people or something, but it doesn't matter, really, in the long run, I feel how I feel, and act accordingly..

Well, first let me say that I am not impressed by rich people. I am impressed by caring people and people with integrity, and that is what I see in Oprah. I didn't see any of her really early shows, but did see the ones that were really much like The Phil Donahue Show. I found them entertaining but nothing to write home about, since I am not into sensationalism for the sake of TV ratings. I did admire Oprah's poise and confidence. It was only in the last few years when Oprah changed the content of her shows that I became a real fan. She has empowered the every-day-woman in a way no one else (I can think of) has done on a massive scale. She's a liberal to the core, and so a kindred spirit. She wants to liberate all women, especially the ones who live in cultures that denigrate the value of a female child, and the female adult. I have cried when watching her shows and if you avoid her shows, that would mean you've missed some extraordinary educational stories, such as the work done at the Fistula Hospital in Ethiopia by its founder, Dr. Catherine Hamlin. Dr Hamlin's hospital couldn't continue without financial support, and Oprah directed the western world to the stark tragedy of young girls shunned by their families because of a horrific condition that resulted from under-aged pregnancies. This is just one of numerous causes Oprah has raised awareness for.

One of the things that sickened me about this primary is that for years and years, people were contrasting the Clinton years with the Bush years, and saying how much better things were. But for election purposes, Hillary became the devil and was slandered and hated. IMO the health plan she valiantly tried to get enacted, the health plan that told the insurance companies all to fuck off, was defeated by the lobbyists and special interests that she is accused of pandering to. All of a sudden it was No More Clintons. She was deemed a failure for not getting the health plan done, and in bed with special interests that killed it at the same time.
Hillary was hated by some because all powerful people are absolutely hated by some and absolutely loved by some. It comes with the territory if you have a public profile and a powerful role. No matter what she does, she will have people deem her a failure because they will find SOMETHING that didn't work out for her and pin that on her. I was shocked that she agreed with the plan to attack Iraq. OK, it's now been explained what really happened but I still feel disappointment in that regard. However, I still admire her hugely and hope somehow she and Obama can be partners in the presidency but I don't know how it will work out. I really think Hillary needs to be by Obama's side to strengthen the Democrat bid for the White House

So for me, screw the whole thing. I feel that those who like Obama can vote for him, and those who like McCain can vote for him. I don't know anything novel about Obama except he is going to "change" things, and his plans seemed the same as Hillary's, I think intentionally. He is a politician through and through, and it is ridiculous to think he is some kind of breath of fresh air, he has been running for president for a long time.

If Edwards had ended up where Hillary was, I would have supported him because I liked his health plan better (bearing in mind that I don't think for one second that anything is really going to happen). I do not dislike Obama because I like Hillary, but that is the cheap easy thing to fling for a lot of people. and again, it doesn't matter. I liked Kucinich, too.

So, that is just my opinion, I am not stoopid or uneducated or racist (I actually think it racist to dismiss my views by calling me racist, on a couple of levels) - but there is one explanation for ya. No one really cares why I don't like Obama, because he is black and I am not. We both have been rendered one-dimensional..

Well, I don't see it that way at all. You don't like Bush, and he's not black. So I don't see you as a racist at all, you just have your own thoughts and beliefs on what's best for the citizens of your country and no doubt for the citizens of the world as well. It is really unfortunate that people are labeled racist just because they don't support someone of a different race. I don't like OJ Simpson. Anyone who calls me racist... well, their credibility is in the toilet.

I find it ridiculous that a candidate who was only bested by .1 percent of the votes was labelled a loser. And she had been closing that gap late in the primaries. The whole primary was a joke anyway, between having delegates, super delegates, and elections on dates all over the place. And if Obama couldn't get more of a lead than one tenth of one percent over Hillary, despite outspending her and having more favorable media, than hopefully the DNC will take that into consideration somehow. .
Anyone who labels Hillary a loser is surely low on credibility. Clay didn't win American Idol ... does that make HIM a loser? Oh he's a loser by the standards of some people but for those people, I do my doggie act. (If you can't eat it or hump it, p*ss on it and walk away). People need to be judgemental because it makes them feel like they stand for something. And cowards choose easy targets.

I wouldn't let Oprah pick out a book for me, much less a president. I wouldn't let Barbara Walters or Ellen or Larry King or any other talking head talk show hostess or host do that either, regardless of gender or race. They are entertainers, is all they are. They use other people's lives in order to sell stuff. Shrug. Nothing ennobling about that. Doesn't confer wisdom or superiority. Heh, I saw Maya Angelou's endorsement of Hillary explained away as she only did it because Bill asked her to speak at his inauguration. WTF?.
Oprah is way more than an entertainer. Through the guests she hand-picks for her shows, I have learned a great deal. Again, is Clay just an entertainer? Should we pay attention when he talks about inclusion for children who aren't typical; do we say, oh, forget it, he's just an entertainer. He uses his celebrity platform opportunistically, but with intelligence and integrity. Just like Oprah. No one is one-dimensional. If Oprah recommends a book, I might look at the blurb, but her Book Club does not dictate my reading list, I'd probably pay more attention to a book YOU might recommend. Why? Because you're more like me than Oprah is. I always listen to Oprah, but she doesn't do my thinking for me. She is controlling on a grand scale, and she admits it. But she has used her money - and the power that comes with it - for the common-good.

Yeah, I was the one who made that remark about Maya Angelou's endorsement of Hillary. Unfortunately, it appeared flippant. Sometimes I don't think before I the hit Send Reply button, which is why I like this forum. I'd like to think I can be forgiven for not expressing myself properly. If it appeared as an insult to Maya Angelou. WOW insult Maya Angelou? That's unthinkable. The main point I wanted to make was that it is possible for two people to love and admire each other, but still have a different view. It blows me away that Arnold Schwarzenegger is evidently happily married to someone from the most famous Democrat family in history. It's a great combination.... the only way to get balance and progress is when there is genuine dialogue between opposing sides.

No need for rebuttals or whatever, I am just explaining how I feel. I don't care any more. And it has been years since I could be guilted into anything. Besides, according to the media and to lots of Obama supporters, I am just an old woman who doesn't count anyway, so I will just sit back and not be counted. You win! I have been informed in several places that all the really smart and creative people and all the young people will vote for Obama, so it's all good! I am assuming those people just never bothered to vote before because they didn't care, being so smart and committed and all. :-) This not a diatribe, really! Just a calm recounting of my feelings..
You may disagree, but I understand how you feel. I felt angry and defeated over Iraq, and the fact that my country's Prime Minister, who insisted on being joined at the hip with Bush on the Iraq matter, was humiliated at the recent Federal Elections is small comfort, because it doesn't reverse the Iraq situation. The damage is done and future generations will suffer the consequences.

Of course you count, all thinking people COUNT in terms of the leader we choose to take care of our life. Hillary, with or without the VP role, is NOT DEAD YET!! And I don't have the Bush black/white attitude of "you're either with us or against us". Just because someone is WITH Obama, it does not automatically mean they are against Hillary.

Most of all, I disagree with the fact that you see entertainers as nothing more than ... entertainers. More people know the names and 'accomplishments' of entertainers than the names and accomplishments of politicians who are working in the background towards changing legislation that will affect their lives. Look at the number of celebrities who first got public attention as entertainers, and moved into political life. Obvious example, Reagan. In fact, Oprah has lost a lot of fans over her endorsement of Obama and "A New Earth". I am interested in that book, but I haven't rushed out to get it, so that hopefully indicates that while I am always, always interested in what Oprah has to say, she's not my "Pastor". No one is. I was raised by a father whose philosophy was firmly based on conservative values; yet I'm a Democrat. At least my father taught me to think for myself.

A lot of people I know don't like getting involved in politics or political discussions because of its divisive nature. However, I feel that everyone counts because everyone influences someone on some level. I've never learned anything from anyone who agrees with me on everything.

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Claytonic, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Oh, and my Oprah dislike bloomed when I saw a show where she invited some single mothers from Chicago whose teenagers chronically skipped school. She had told them she was going to talk about it and see if there was any way to approach the problem and help.

Instead she lambasted them for not being able to control their children. Sullen teenagers sitting there and smirking. All she really did was empower the teenagers, give them someone to blame, and get the women to cry in bewilderment.

I think she should have done better by investigating the conditions these women lived in, the desertion of the fathers, whatever - but having no kids of her own, and not living in the projects, she knew none of that, she just humiliated those women on TV and the kids all laughed.

I think Oprah is fond of the grand gesture. Like arranging for Chrysler to donate cars to poor women who could not keep them because they could not afford the taxes. I think Oprah can pick a president for herself, but I don't think she is capable of picking one for me. I don't think Clay can, either.

I made the mistake of reading comments offered in a CNN column - the writer wants opinions on what Hillary should say in her speech tomorrow.

I just don't think I am the same political party, or brotherhood of man, as the people making the nasty comments.

Had to laugh when people say Hillary should be all bowing and scraping and apologising - to people who basically talk shit about her? I hope she does not. A lot of Obama followers are really having a blast crowing and cackling.

I am done with politics for the year. Of course I would not vote for McCain. I am not even going to watch Hillary tomorow!

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Claytonic, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Oh, and my Oprah dislike bloomed when I saw a show where she invited some single mothers from Chicago whose teenagers chronically skipped school. She had told them she was going to talk about it and see if there was any way to approach the problem and help. Instead she lambasted them for not being able to control their children. Sullen teenagers sitting there and smirking. All she really did was empower the teenagers, give them someone to blame, and get the women to cry in bewilderment.

I think she should have done better by investigating the conditions these women lived in, the desertion of the fathers, whatever - but having no kids of her own, and not living in the projects, she knew none of that, she just humiliated those women on TV and the kids all laughed.

How long ago was this? In any case, Oprah is not infallible, and she knows it. She's very human, and that's a major part of her appeal to me.

I think Oprah is fond of the grand gesture. Like arranging for Chrysler to donate cars to poor women who could not keep them because they could not afford the taxes.
Oh I totally agree on this. I felt the cringe factor too, and the hosts of other high-rating shows made the most of it. But looking at the big picture... has Oprah done more good than not? For me, it's yes for SURE. Most of all, she's an inspiration to those who may think they have no chance in life because of their race and/or physical appearance and/or economic disadvantage. She transcended all that and more (e.g. childhood trauma and abuse), and that's her biggest gift to us all.

. I think Oprah can pick a president for herself, but I don't think she is capable of picking one for me. I don't think Clay can, either.
There is no argument here. It's not about having someone else pick the President, it's about someone getting you to look at something you may not have known much about. I have a friend who, as a child, was taken by her mother to political rallies for the opposing "team". Her mother said... "We already know what our party is doing, we need to know what the other one is doing". The OTHER party is the one that will point out the weaknesses in your own party. The two parties - liberal and conservative - they are not so extreme left and right as they used to be, they HAVE to be more flexible to keep in step with changing social attitudes and values. It takes a lot of discipline to venture to the other side to hear them out, and I say that knowing that I, myself, am almost always guilty of wanting to remain in my comfort-zone.. But I try my best because as the saying goes, the people deserve the government they voted for, and I don't ever want to be part of a majority that is so complacent or ignorant as to passively allow another situation like Hitler's Germany.
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I don't ever want to be part of a majority that is so complacent or ignorant as to passively allow another situation like Hitler's Germany.

Hey, according to the last presidential elections, if you live in the United States, you already do!

Just perused about 5 other places I check out on a regular basis.

I had no wish to watch Hillary concede.

From realclearpolitics.com - Now In Final :-) (HDD joke)

Obama - 17,535,458 48.1%

Clinton - 17,493,836 48.0%

Obama +41,622 +0.1%

It must bite very hard for those Obama followers who absolutely believe that all 17,493,836 of of Hillary's votes are from stubborn delusional old white ladies and younger stupid uneducated (new word for not having attended college) lowly-employed and low-paid racist white males. Holy shit - that's a lot of people too dumb to understand why they should vote like their superiors!

Not bitter, just kinda incredulous that the olive branch or reaching out or whatever is really just - hey! You are delusional or stupid! Get with our program because we say so! We are smarter because we make more money and went to college! Pretty funny, really, there was not so much a need for gracious concession as for winning with grace. And I think that ship has sailed.

The most us dummies are gonna get is threats of doom. And eeeek! What if all the uneducated people can't read the mockery and feel stung by it enough to fall in line? Yikes! :-) We might not be smart enough to even get on the internet and see it! I understand Hillary did not reach out to those dumb low paid white guys, uh-oh! (All of this is from 5 different places, no one board, by the way. And some boards are more like going to Obama's official web site, so I discount them quite a bit. Reading them is sorta like being a Clay fan and reading his thread over at Sucks or TwoP- no need to take the scorn or condescension to heart.)

This post brought to you from someone who actually is laughing at the utter predictability of it all. Here's the thing - the fervor, the excitement that the Obama folks have is not going to take hold with the other half of the voters who preferred Hillary. In fact, Hillary closed the gap to a miniscule 0.1% , from a whopping 2.8%, near the end of the campaign. Best that can be done, IMO, is to keep hammering home that at least Obama is better than McCain.

Because we all have been inundated with Obama - and almost half of us said, um, no. So I don't see that he personally can make a big difference, it is more the McCain boogeyman thing.

Claytonic, you are such a level-headed sweetie - I'm okay, I just really would vote for Hillary if she ran as an independent because I think she would make the best president. And again, I would feel lots better about this if Obama's popular vote lead was a smidge more than 0.1%. At least I don't need to read about politics any more!

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I just read a FABULOUS rumor - the only reason Pelosi took Bush/Cheney impeachment off the table was because Hillary made her do it.

Hillary did not want to run against whoever replaced Bush.

Pelosi only endorsed Obama as a smokescreen; Hillary made her do that, too.

Now that Obama is running, Hillary has given the Senate the OKAY to impeach, so that Obama will lose and Hillary can run in 2012.

In fact, everything that happens adversely to Obama has been and will be instigated by Hillary; Rove actually has a soft spot in his heart for Obama and would never stoop to trying to smear him!

I truly adore some of the comments I read on the net - there is stuff out there that I just couldn't make up!

CMSU - really, honestly - when Obama's former foreign policy advisor said his statement that he would withdraw from Iraq was really just for campaign purposes, and that it was only the best case scenario, and that she doubted there would be best case conditions. She said of course Obama won't have access to all of the iraq info until after he is elected, so he can't really decide right now what to do.

salon.com

Samantha Power's description of Hillary Clinton as a "monster" might be what's ultimately remembered of her time as a senior foreign policy advisor to Barack Obama's campaign, and it's what brought that tenure to an end. But it's another set of comments Power made recently, in an appearance on a BBC program Thursday, that may ultimately prove more damaging to Obama's campaign.

In that appearance, Power told interviewer Stephen Sackur that when it comes to his plans to withdraw from Iraq, Obama "will of course not rely upon some plan that he's crafted as a presidential candidate or as a U.S. senator. He will rely upon a plan, an operational plan that he pulls together, in consultation with people who are on the ground, to whom he doesn't have daily access now as a result of not being the president." (Video and a transcript of the segment are below.)

All told, Power's comments are not unreasonable -- or all that surprising. She says, basically, that the situation in Iraq may change between now and when the next president is inaugurated, and that Obama's withdrawal plan is only a best-case scenario. Maybe I'm just overly cynical, but I've always suspected that once any of the candidates was in office, his or her actual actions on Iraq might not reflect campaign promises. (A retired general responsible for coauthoring the "surge" plan for Iraq, who has previously advised Hillary Clinton, recently made similar comments about Clinton's stance.)

But of course, even if Power was really just laying out a realistic perspective, reality isn't always what matters in a political campaign. What may matter more to voters is whether they see Obama as sharing their position on the war, and whether they interpret these comments as a sign that Obama is being less than honest.

Seriously, I was told by many people that Obama would absolutely get us out of Iraq, and that Hillary was only planning to phase out, etc. I just will stick by my credo of not believing campaign speeches one.little.bit. I don't ever listen to them. This is not sour grapes - done is done, this is just an illustration of why I was completely unimpressed by campaign rhetoric.

Well, okay, I did change my registration from Democrat to NONE - because I think the Democratic party in Florida is made up of a bunch of bumbling assholes, and I have no wish to be counted among them officially.

My guess is that Hillary is the one who has been releasing info about Clay's theoretical frozen swimmers, because she is a friend of Clive's. :-)

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Why do you read that stuff DJS..and I'm sure if you followed Obama and McCain you'd find equal things to find absurd. I'm sure it's not all peaches and cream. It's the internet. It's the media. It's just a bunch of people with keyboards saying whatever the hell they want to.

And you actually expect people to be knowledgable about politics? I'm sure half the country surveyed couldn't find Iraq on a map.

I have never given a damn about talking heads. They all have agenda..no matter whose side they are on.

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Couchie, I am not mad - I think it is funny, honest! I have read stupid smack about Obama too - just this thing about Hillary directing Pelosi and the impeachment thing cracked me up! I found it when I was trying to find news about the impeachment - I can find out more about Clay's sperm than I can about Kucinich's efforts.

The Iraq thing - I was really told by people that Obama has the exact opposite plan for Iraq than Hillary did, and that is why they support him. I found the salon.com thing at HuffPost, which has readable content (for me) now that Arianna doesn't feel the need to put two pages of anti-Hillary stuff front and center.

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Why do you read that stuff DJS..and I'm sure if you followed Obama and McCain you'd find equal things to find absurd. I'm sure it's not all peaches and cream. It's the internet. It's the media. It's just a bunch of people with keyboards saying whatever the hell they want to.

And you actually expect people to be knowledgable about politics? I'm sure half the country surveyed couldn't find Iraq on a map.

I have never given a damn about talking heads. They all have agenda..no matter whose side they are on.

Couchie, following 9-11, GW Bush couldn't find Afghanistan on the world map when the attack on Afghanistan was a major topic of discussion. I still can't get over that! I have laughed at a lot of GW jokes, but sometimes the implications are too scary to be funny.

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Supreme Court baby! 5 to 4... if for no other reason..this is why I vote. While the rest of the govt gets bogged down in beauracracy and bunch of idiotic posturing for the next election ...they have the power to really change our lives just like that!

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Ah, the thlot plickens!

Playbiller has been saying this for months!

When McCain Drops Out

When the Republicans choose their candidate on September 4th, there is a very real chance that they could throw the election into an unexpected chaos as they pull a genuine September Surprise.

I think there is every reason to believe John McCain won't be the nominee. Ok, let me say that again. McCain will not be the Republican candidate in November.

Interesting take on this, with a whole raft of possible nominees. Most of which are kinda problematic, but hey! Look who got elected last time!

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Anyone else read today that Major General Anthony Taguba, who wrote the 2004 military report on Abu Ghraib and testified to Congress about it in 2005, and then was summarily forced into retirement (of course), has now written:

"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

Read all about here at General Accuses White House of War Crimes posted today at WP Online:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...1801546_pf.html

I hope Gen. Taguba won't be flying in small aircraft in the near future. This will end up being just another story the corporate media wouldn't dare touch, I betcha. Hope I'm wrong, but if the past is prologue this will be completely ignored.

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Here is a copy of an article I read in the Washington Post yesterday. It had me upset in two ways:

1. That there are such bigoted people in the world. How many people are too lazy to think for themselves and do their own research? It definitely explains why Clay has such a difficult time.

2. That a "journalist" would take that limited view expressed by people who are connected to one another to paint this bigottedness on a whole town. Whatever happened to scientific polls?

The article was the most emailed yesterday and had over 1400 comments. It resonanted in many different ways to the commentators.

In Flag City USA, False Obama Rumors Are Flying

By Eli Saslow

Washington Post Staff Writer

Monday, June 30, 2008; Page A01

FINDLAY, Ohio -- On his corner of College Street, Jim Peterman stares at the four American flags planted in his front lawn and rubs his forehead. Peterman, 74, is a retired worker at Cooper Tire, a father of two, an Air Force veteran and a self-described patriot. He took one trip to Washington in 1989 -- best vacation of his life -- and bought a statue of the Washington Monument that he still displays in a glass case in his living room.

He believes a smart vote is an American's greatest responsibility. Which is why his confusion about Barack Obama continues to eat at him.

On the television in his living room, Peterman has watched enough news and campaign advertisements to hear the truth: Sen. Barack Obama, born in Hawaii, is a Christian family man with a track record of public service. But on the Internet, in his grocery store, at his neighbor's house, at his son's auto shop, Peterman has also absorbed another version of the Democratic candidate's background, one that is entirely false: Barack Obama, born in Africa, is a possibly gay Muslim racist who refuses to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

"It's like you're hearing about two different men with nothing in common," Peterman said. "It makes it impossible to figure out what's true, or what you can believe."

Here in Findlay, a Rust Belt town of 40,000, false rumors about Obama have built enough word-of-mouth credibility to harden into an alternative biography. Born on the Internet, the rumors now meander freely across the flatlands of northwest Ohio -- through bars and baseball fields, retirement homes and restaurants.

Faced with polling that shows about one in 10 Americans thinks Obama is Muslim, the candidate's campaign has launched an aggressive effort to discredit rumors and clarify Obama's past. It created a "Fight the Smears" Web site and a new television ad that reiterates Obama's Christian faith, patriotism and family background. Dozens of volunteers have been sent to Ohio five months in advance of the election so they can spend extra time educating voters.

But on Peterman's block in Findlay, the campaign's efforts may already be too late. A swing voter who entered this election leaning Democratic, Peterson faces a decision that is no longer so simple as a choice between Obama and Republican Sen. John McCain, he said. First, he must pick the version of Obama on which he will stake his vote.

Does he choose to trust a TV commercial in which Obama talks about his "love of country"? Or his neighbor of 40 years, Don LeMaster, a Navy veteran who heard from a friend in Toledo that Obama refuses to wear an American-flag pin?

Does he trust a local newspaper article that details Obama's Christian faith? Or his friend Leroy Pollard, a devoted family man so convinced Obama is a radical Muslim that he threatened to stop talking to his daughter when he heard she might vote for him?

"I'll admit that I probably don't follow all of the election news like maybe I should," Peterman said. "I haven't read his books or studied up more than a little bit. But it's hard to ignore what you hear when everybody you know is saying it. These are good people, smart people, so can they really all be wrong?"

'Funny About Change'

Peterman bought his single-story house here in 1959, a few months after he left the Air Force and married. His wife, Mildred, had grown up in Findlay, and they never considered moving anywhere else. On College Street, the couple found all the hallmarks of America's heartland: a house for $9,000; a neighborhood where their two boys, one handicapped, could play outside after dark; a steady "pencil-pushing" job up the road for Jim at Cooper Tire headquarters.

The neighborhood built up around them. Leroy and Wanda Pollard came in 1962, drawn from southern Ohio by a booming auto industry that offered Leroy plenty of work as a mechanic. Mary Dunson bought the place next door in 1963. Don LeMaster, a police officer, moved in up the street with his wife, Margaret, in 1970.

Every newcomer to the block was white, working-class and Midwestern, and the neighborhood jelled easily. They babysat for one another. They complained to one another about their teenagers. They helped raise one another's grandkids. In all, seven different families have lived on the same block of College Street for at least 35 years.

"We all just found a great place at a great time," Leroy Pollard said.

Peterman hung the American flag on his porch first, in 1960, and the rest of College Street followed his example. By 1980, patriotic displays had grown into an unspoken contest of one-upmanship. Sixty flags planted in one yard on Memorial Day; a living-room window painted red, white and blue; a Buckeye tree decorated with Christmas ornaments celebrating Americana; a gigantic plastic unicorn perched on a front porch and draped in an American flag.

The entire block -- and, soon, the entire town -- shared in unabashed pride and gratefulness for the country that had given them this place. In 1968, a local congressman persuaded the House of Representatives to officially declare Findlay as Flag City, USA.

But with their pride came a nasty undercurrent, one that Obama's candidacy has exacerbated: On College Street, nobody wanted anything to change. As the years passed, Peterman and his neighbors approached one another to share in their skepticism about the unknown. What was the story behind the handful of African Americans who had moved into a town that is 93 percent white? Why were Japanese businessmen coming in to run the local manufacturing plants? Who in the world was this Obama character, running for president with that funny-sounding last name?

"People in Findlay are kind of funny about change," said Republican Mayor Pete Sehnert, a retired police officer who ran for the office on a whim last year. "They always want things the way they were, and any kind of development is always viewed as making things worse, a bad thing."

When people on College Street started hearing rumors about Obama -- who looked different from other politicians and often talked about change -- they easily believed the nasty stories about an outsider.

"I think Obama would be a disaster, and there's a lot of reasons," said Pollard, explaining the rumors he had heard about the candidate from friends he goes camping with. "I understand he's from Africa, and that the first thing he's going to do if he gets into office is bring his family over here, illegally. He's got that racist [pastor] who practically raised him, and then there's the Muslim thing. He's just not presidential material, if you ask me."

Said Don LeMaster: "He's a good speaker, but you've got to dig deeper than that for the truth. Politicians tell you anything. You have look beyond the surface, and then there are some real lies."

Said Jeanette Collins, a 77-year-old who lives across the street: "All I know for sure about Obama is that we're not ready for him."

Only one man on College Street remains open-minded, and recently even Peterman has started to sway. Like most of his neighbors, he dislikes McCain for his stance on the Iraq war and would like to cast his vote for a president who will bring the troops home. But on a recent visit to his son's auto shop, Peterman overheard misinformed customers talking again about a Muslim in the White House.

"I don't know. The whole thing just scares me," Peterman said. "I'm almost starting to feel like the best choice is not voting at all."

The Truth Squad

So far, those who have pushed the truth in Findlay have been rewarded with little that resembles progress. Gerri Kish, a 66-year-old born in Hawaii, read both of Obama's autobiographies. She has close friends, she said, who still refuse to believe her when she swears Obama is Christian. Then she hands them the books, and they refuse to read them. "They just want to believe what they believe," she said. "Nothing gets through to them."

The new advertisement running in Findlay, in which Obama is pictured with his white mother and white grandparents as he talks about developing a "deep and abiding faith in the country I love" while growing up in the Kansas heartland, is dismissed by residents of College Street as the desperate lies of another dishonest Washington politician. And they say that Obama's moves to put distance between himself and the Muslim community, with his campaign declining invitations to visit mosques and Obama volunteers removing two women in head scarves from the camera range at a rally in Detroit earlier this month are just a too-late effort to disguise his true beliefs.

For the past month, two students from the University of Findlay have spent their Tuesday nights walking from door to door in the city to tell voters about Obama. Erik Cramer and Sarah Everly target Democrats and swing voters exclusively, but they've still experienced mixed results. Sometimes, at a front door, they mention their purpose only to have a dozen rumors thrown back at them and the door slammed. "People tell us that we're in the wrong town," Everly said.

Soon, on a Tuesday night, they'll walk down College Street -- past the American flags, past the LeMasters, past the Pollards -- and knock on Jim Peterman's front door. They will ask for two minutes of his time, and Peterman will give it to them. He will listen to their story, weighing facts against fiction. For a few minutes, he might even believe them.

Then he'll close his door and go inside, back to his life. Back to his grocery store, back to his son's auto shop, back to the gossip on College Street. Back to the rumors again.

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First, I have seen a LOT of Washington Post stuff that is nothing but smear journalism. And really, if a person who had not heard these rumors before read this, they would surely know now.

I just watched Jeannie Moos on CNN yap for 5 minutes about how some unidentified person spread an unverified quote about how Bill Clinton said Obama could kiss his ass all over the internet - she kept repeating it and repeating it, all the while saying it was unsubstantiated.

What I got out of it was that CNN wants me to know that Bill may have said it.

Aside from the fact that the media is pretty much a crapfest nowadays - I honestly don't know why people are so surprised by this stuff. As a Hillary supporter, I have been told many times that this is politics, suck it up, etc. And surely Team Obama knew this was coming - if not, then they are incompetent boobs.

If political smear and such was just politics as usual for Hillary, than Obama is not exempt from them, either. Again, I was under the impression that Democrats just wanted to win the election - and every possible slam or smear should have been considered long ago.

Fear, just living in Florida has made me a "red stater", and just being a Hillary supporter has caused me to be labelled either as an old lady who only like Hillary because she is a woman, salted with a little of being told the only reason I don't like Obama is because he is black.

Other observations I don't think Wesley Clark should have to apologise for saying that being in the service does not qualify a person to be president. I am disappointed in hearing that Obama's people have asked him to apologise for that. And Clark is/was a general, he is speaking from that perspective.

Also disappointed to hear that Obama went from saying he would filibuster in order to block FISA, and now has voted in favor of it.

This is why i feel all the campaign rhetoric is mostly meaningless drivel.

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Djs111, just wondering if you remember that Fear was an actively engaged campaign worker for Clinton this year. Here's her last post in this thread:

Wow I sure missed a lot by not reading this thread the last few weeks.

In my opinion the Democratic Party created a big mess this year that could ruin the chances of a Democratic nominee winning. I did a lot of work in NC for Hillary. I worked with teenagers, college students, men and women, black and white, old and young. I made one really good friend and met many wonderful people who I hope to work with again.

I knew it was an uphill fight in NC, but everyone gave 100% or more for what they believed. I felt that I would vote for Obama if Hillary lost, until I visited with the sister in law from Hell last week at their farm in PA. They have three houses in MD, PA and NY, but vote in MD. She spent four days trying to browbeat me into believing that Obama was the only perfect candidate and I would go to Hell if I didn't support him, Well maybe not that but pretty darn close. She kept insisting that all Hillary supporters were uneducated, white and racist. We were not speaking last I heard. Not that that bothers me. :cryingwlaughter:

I just hope I can forget this before November. Amazing how one person can hurt a candidate. I'm thinking she is the reason Hillary won by so much in PA. LOL

I sure don't want to see McCain win so I'm hoping that Obama offers her a meaningful position and I don't think V-P is it. Well I might be old and a women but my husband voted for Hillary and last I heard he was male.

I've read so many inaccuracies in the press that I don't believe anything anymore. This morning I got home from the gym at 11 and my husband said that Hillary had conceeded. He said it was an AP report. I couldn't find it anywhere and then he showed me where he had seen it at Yahoo. Well before you could say refresh it disappeared. Since this was when the polls were just opening in SD and Montana, I thought they would apologize, but no. They just replaced it with a poorly done cut and paste article saying that Hillary wants to be VP, from another anonymous source. We tried to get hold of someone at AP but were told that we could not speak to anyone. I think I've convinced my husband not to trust the news.

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Yes, I absolutely remember. And Fear has told me of the crap that happened. personally.

I am not really saying what I said againt Fear, I have been other places on the net today where people are complaining about lies and smears against Obama.

What did everybody think was going to happen? Some people were straight-out revelling in the Hillary bashing by the media - and now it is Obama's turn in the barrel, is all that is happening. Fresh meat. Hopefully he has taken into account that this would happen. I am afraid he hasn't, is all I'm saying.

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Good! Just checking. You and I have both been in trouble at the CH for saying that if people were upset about Clinton's so-called bashing of Obama, they had a rude awakening a comin'. And here it is.

Fear, thanks for that article, and I agree with you about the stereotyping of the town, and djs111, good point about Moost's piece. Lordy, why is critical thinking so hard for so many?

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Sometimes worlds collide...

Obama entourage casts wide shadow

JERUSALEM – Democrat Barack Obama doesn’t travel light.

Halfway around the world, the Obama campaign machine appears as sprawling and seamless as it is on its home turf. As the presumptive Democratic nominee tours five countries in five days, he brings an entourage that would make a pop star envious.

<snip>

But when the Arizona senator traveled to Mexico and Colombia last month, he mobilized only eight staff members, including two foreign policy advisers, two press aides, two advance workers and two assistants to Cindy McCain, said campaign spokesman Brian Rogers.

“Who does he think he is?” Rogers asked of Obama. “Clay Aiken?”

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If I see one more story on these cuckoo tree sitters I'm going to go down there and protest them being on my TV.

I'm as environmentally conscious as the next person but damn get off my TV or find someone who appears to have some sense as your spokes person. And oh, next time you want to protest, expect your own team to feed your ass.

Sorry, I want to save the planet too but they are f'ing annoying.

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Jaycee noticed that the thread was not particularly active so I'm gonna make it show up in the New Threads thingie!

In case anyone's wondering, I tend more toward independent than anything else - socially liberal, fiscally conservative, culturally libertarian; have voted for a variety of parties in elections of all levels (tend toward Democratic in the presidential ones - though I did vote for Ross Perot). I especially like voting for people who aren't lawyers. I don't care about politicians' personal lives unless it involves their political ones (bribery, criminal activites, etc.) and I tend to prefer politics that don't demonize the oppositions. There is very little I see in black-and-white, and if you think your guy/girl is perfect in every way, we shall disagree. The only thing I can't stand is stupidity.

Of course, now I wanna know about the cuckoo tree sitter people.

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Jaycee noticed that the thread was not particularly active so I'm gonna make it show up in the New Threads thingie!

In case anyone's wondering, I tend more toward independent than anything else - socially liberal, fiscally conservative, culturally libertarian; have voted for a variety of parties in elections of all levels (tend toward Democratic in the presidential ones - though I did vote for Ross Perot). I especially like voting for people who aren't lawyers. I don't care about politicians' personal lives unless it involves their political ones (bribery, criminal activites, etc.) and I tend to prefer politics that don't demonize the oppositions. There is very little I see in black-and-white, and if you think your guy/girl is perfect in every way, we shall disagree. The only thing I can't stand is stupidity.

Of course, now I wanna know about the cuckoo tree sitter people.

Wow! You sound a lot like me, or I am like you. That is probably it. I even voted for Perot. I have family that are Republicans and send me all sorts things and then I have friends that are Democrats. Both sides have very strong feelings and neither can really be talked to. What I need is a knowledgeable person who is unbiased... I am not sure that such a person exists.

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Ok, I'll take the plunge...

I'm not terribly political. I was born and raised Republican, but since becoming voting age, I have voted for both sides at times without being an official Independent.

When the jockeying for nominations started, I basically said I didn't care who became the nominee from either party, cause after watching the Republicans ruin this country and our standing around the world in the last 8 years, there is no way in hell I would vote for a Republican again. I know a lot of people feel that way.

McCain was smart to pick Palin cause she's a very dynamic speaker. Problem is that she is just another politician who will say what they need to get elected. She made a point that Obama said he would raise taxes for business when what he really said was that he would close tax loopholes for big business. People won't check her facts. It scares me that with her addition to the ticket, the Republicans could actually win this election cause she brings a young, dynamic edge to the ticket... that scares me a whole lot.

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