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djs111
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Ooops I did not see where it said only the first vote would count. I did not read, just started voting because I was too busy voting over and over Hee Hee. Sorry, but I voted so much that I started to think I was voting for Clay on Idol again. Hee Hee

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Actually, while I am certainly not an Obama fan, I consider what the Republicans have done in the last eight years cold, calculated, disastrous, cynical, and so on and on and on.

Why vote to extend the rape of Americans? And Palin seems an ignorant witch, even though we are assured that has been cast out of her. A doddering vitriolic old man and an ignoramus. Fronting the same party that has been in power.

Nope.

I don't who runs against them, I cannot bring myself to vote for them.

I would have voted for ANYBODY who ran as a Democrat.

That, perhaps, is what McCain supporters who spread stuff about Obama are missing - even if everything you spread is true, he is quite astoundingly the lesser of two evils, to many of us.

I don't know why you found it necessary to mention Faye, but I have trouble believing she would support a party that considers her son as somehow evil. In any event, that seems kind of suspect at best.

If Clay himself were to support McCain, I would just be saddened, it would not make one iota of difference to me.

I believe I am quite on record here and at the CH regarding my dislike for Obama - but my dislike of the Republican party and deeds literally knows no bounds.

Eight more years of wars and joblessness and corporate thievery? Nope.

Most of that letter is old stuff. Yes, McCain crashed three planes altogether, and spent time in prison camps.

NO ONE took the early out, or very few, McCain was not alone in refusing.

And I do not see how that experience qualifies him to be president.

I want my country back, and I'm voting for John McCain.

I want my country back, too, and someone who has spent years agreeing with the current regime is not likely to get it back.

McCain has been toadying for years and years.

He voted along with Bush over 90% of the time - so I fail to see how he would "bring the country back" - he helped ruin it.

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Hmmm....well, my son is currently serving in the Navy (yay! I get to go see in Japan in December) - and that doesn't speak to me at all.

It may sound really horrible - but being locked up as a POW doesn't actually qualify you as President either, in my opinion. Not trying to take away anything from McCain, but suffering in and of itself doesn't make you a good leader. Really, it doesn't.

As for the change...well, I can explain the change I'm seeing. I'm seeing people for the first time in a LONG time, thinking that their voice actually counts. I'm seeing that the people who label themselves "real" Americans and people like me as "liberals" may have a voice in our government. And yes, there is something wrong with the current system...where I can be arrested and held as an "enemy combatant" just on the President's say-so...that we watched dead bodies floating in the water after Katrina...that almost 20% of America's children live in poverty...Hell, yes, there's a LOT OF SHIT wrong with the system. What, you think it's perfect? You think it's gotten better in the last eight years? You really think that McCain doesn't want to LEAD? Feh. People who HAVE had a goddam hard time in this country (like Michelle Obama and a lot of freakin' people like her) really HATE those who are DETERMINED to be WILLFULLY blind to its faults. Just as it's an American story that Obama can rise out of obscurity to become a legitimate contender for the Presidency - it's just as much an American story where James Byrd was dragged to his death behind a goddam truck.

As for his qualifications...I guess Bush was "technically" more "qualified" that Obama...and we see how well that turned out. Barack has as much qualifications as Lincoln did...

My problem with McCain/Republicans? It's perfectly obvious to me they have no interest whatsoever in reaching out to include me and mine...NONE. Where are McCain's alleged "leadership" qualities? You know that "Maverick" thing? Oddly enough, that mostly made him out to be a parade of ONE.

I personally think that being the President of these United States is a lot of like parenthood...it's on the job training and all the owning of puppies (mayorhood) and kitties (senatorial experience) doesn't prepare you for the job...you rise to the occasion or you don't...and nothing in that screed tells me John McCain will rise to the job any better than Barack Obama.

I want my country back too. I'm tired someone looking at me and at Obama and not seeing a goddam "real" American...or a "patriot".

If Faye forwarded that...I lost an incredible amount of respect for her. That was a stupid screed. It disrespects me and my choice. I know who and why and what I've voting for just as well as that whiny bastard who's voting for McCain. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt since I want to think she has more sense than to pass along what I basically see as spam. Give me a RATIONAL reason to support McCain to overcome his IRRATIONAL actions and I might think about it...But McCain is clearly a desperate man...and I don't want a frightened, desperate man running my freakin' country.

I used to respect McCain. Because he did acted differently from the majority of Republicans. But push come to shove, he turned into an asshole. And I am tired of assholes running this country. He turned into an idiot. He is as old as DIRT and look who he picked as his VP. And if your idiot screed writer thinks Palin is more qualified that Obama...well, we have nothing more to discuss because that would tell me all I need to know.

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Frankly I don't think either one of them is qualified to be president. I am so unhappy with the choices.

I would never vote for McCain - NEVER - but I am so tired of voting for someone because I think the other guy would be a worse president. I want to vote for someone because I think they would make a great - or even a good - president!

I have no more belief that my vote counts this time around than I did in the past - and won't as long as the electoral college system is still in place, nor when someone can buy an election if they raise 600 million dollars (not that money buying an election is new. Its more status quo.). I don't believe my voice carries any more weight this time than in the past. I also do not believe whoever wins will be able to cure the woes of this country any time soon. Whoever is elected doesn't get to take office, wave his magic wand and make all his campaign promises come true!

Besides, what a candidate says during a campaign and what he does once in office are rarely the same thing.

With all due respect to Obama, I have no more faith in him than I do in John McCain. I don't think he has any more integrity than any other politician. I do not believe he will keep his promises as I think most of his promises are hollow campaign rhetoric.

He has painted a pretty picture with fancy words and powerful speeches, but there is nothing on his resume that makes me believe he can be a good president and many reasons to doubt him.

But IF I vote - and that's a HUGE IF - he'll get my vote because really, what are my choices?

(Although McCain was pretty funny on SNL Saturday!)

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I feel almost the same way, CG. Completely unhappy with one choice and not completely happy with the other. :shrug:

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And CG and annabear - I can respect that. Because frankly I was more for Hillary than anyone else, but I promised myself this year I was gonna be a total yellow dog Democrat. One of my problems with McCain was that I did hold him to a higher standard...and the flip-flop on torture killed it for me. The final straw was the hiring of the very people that dragged his good name through the nastiest campaign in 2000...to the point that he still personally can't stand Bush...but was willing to do the same. It's not a lot, but Obama has held to a slightly higher standard, and I respect that.

But I will have to disagree a little about what a candidate says in his campaign - I've got to look up the reference but they did a study and it turns out that most politicians do make an good faith effort and much of the time succeed at keeping many of their campaign promises...Reagan and his fucking deregulation for example. Nominating Supreme Court justices (and other judicial slots). So what they say really does mean something. But the American voting populace is deeply cynical, and it's not totally justified.

Considering I'm only 47, I have personally experienced the remnants of Jim Crow. And honest to fucking God, I did not believe I would have seen this happen in my lifetime. I understand the idea that one individual vote doesn't seem to make a lot of difference - but for many, all of their votes are making a change. Are being heard. Not being taken for granted, but are seriously vital. That have some real ownership in this election. I am personally thrilled with that.

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The email forwarded by Faye is no different to all the other circulating emails where the author takes a slant, and then provides the some sensational, out of context text, to support that slant. I have read some truly ugly political propaganda in emails, mostly from people who proclaim to be "God-fearing".

And that author is definitely NOT a thinker, certainly not one that is able to extend himself laterally.

Personally, I am not sure whether to be more afraid that Obama will win, or more afraid that he won't. That's my status quo after watching a documentary last night on the mood of the people and why they will or won't for him.

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hey ya'll..I understand..that's me about every election I've EVER voted in. I've always voted for the candidate who is more associated with what I believe in. And for me, as a black woman, how could I be in a party that uses the color of my skin to scare people. And I'm not just talking about this year - they make me feel like the boogie man every damn election. So I grit my teeth every election and I vote democrat for people I am not passionate about. Kerry, Dukakis, Gore. The only time before this that I got excited was for Bill Clinton. I love a smart man. Yet he disappointed me SO much in a number of different ways. I still admire him and if he could have run for a third term I would have voted for him again.

I started out this election like I do every single election. I'm sick of being told I drank the Kool aid because someone finally got me excited. For black folk Bill Clinton was the first black president BTW LOL <TM Chris Rock>

Looking at all of our past presidents I think both candidates are qualified to be president. If Bush is qualified to be president then half the population is qualified. The question for me is not one of qualification.

I've learned a lot from just the campaign. Obama's has been fascinating. He hired smart people. They've gone with the flow, rolled with the punches. They've organized a remarkable campaign. And no he's no saint. If he were he'd be punching in someone elses name on the ballot. I still don't think he stooped as low as some but I admit I could be biased on that one. :cryingwlaughter: And come tomorrow should he lose..oh well what else is new. I've only had 3 terms of presidency that I have been actually excited about anyway.

I've always said..people will say anything to get in office and do anything to stay. So, this year is no different. And only they have the ability to make me reasses that position. I'm just happy that for once at least I actually care.

ETA: KAndre..interesting. Yes I'm very cynical. But I agree they do try...but one man can't do anything. He has the legistlative branch to deal with..and that's for starters. There is no cooperation and there has been very little leadership in my lifetime. Time will tell whether the next president, whoever that may be, can foster cooperation and lead.

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Interesting discussion. I have voted Republican as often of Democrat in my lifetime. When Bush was elected the second time I was scared the country wouldn't survive the next four years and we made it thru three before the sh*t his the fan. This time I have hope that things can change if Obama is elected. Why? Cause this country sees that the status quo HAS to stop or we'll destroy ourselves.

McCain has a hair temper. He brags about making lightening fast decisions and then never changing his mind. He's a ticking time bomb. Palin stands for everything I hate... anti-gay and anti-abortion and if she took over, talk about inexperience. Scary doesn't begin to say it.

Obama knows what needs to be done. He has surrounded himself with brilliant, non-partisan advisors and was smart enough to know how to raise the money he needed without taking any tax money, unlike McCain. IF we get a Democratic congress and it looks like we will, he may actually be able to implement some of what needs to be done.

This country really needs to get rid of the two party system. Both parties put staying in power ahead of the interests of the country as a whole. In this election, tho, we have a man who sees that working together is the only way to bring us back to wholeness and garner respect in the world.

Did you know that Obama has 90% approval rating outside the country? The outside world sees what many are too close to see, that he's the best man this time.

Republicans are using fear tactics to get votes. Obama is using ideas on how we can make things better.

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I received this today from the Michael Palin for President Committee.

The somewhat important 2008 election is upon us.

Silly though we may usually be, we at the Committee

to Elect Michael Palin President would like to take

a moment to say, in all seriousness...

VOTE!

Vote like the wind!

Vote like you've never voted before!

Vote like your life depends on it! (It may)

Vote like the ice caps are melting! (They are)

Vote like if you don't then the Spanish Inquisition

will fry you up and toss you into a Spanish Omelet!

Vote like a crazed weasel with its head on fire that

has to vote in order for someone to dunk its head in

a bucket of water, thus dousing the fire and eliciting

a collective sigh of relief from every other potentially

flammable weasel, stoat or ocelot in the vicinity.

VOTE, YOU MISERABLE BASTARD, AS IF BY DOING SO YOU

CAN KEEP AN OIL-DRILLING, WOLF-KILLING, IGNORANT

ALASKAN MOOSE-MUNCHER FROM EVER GETTING HER IGNORANT,

WELL-MANICURED FINGER ANYWHERE NEAR THE BIG RED

ARMAGEDDON BUTTON! (You can)

Ahem.

We believe we've made our point.

*****************************************************

And now back to our regularly-scheduled silliness...

*****************************************************

SPLUNGE!

Until next time...

Your friends at the Temporarily Serious

Though Usually Quite Silly Party

P.S. If you're not a U.S. citizen, please feel free

to close your eyes and vote metaphysically.

So I did.

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Did you know that Obama has 90% approval rating outside the country? The outside world sees what many are too close to see, that he's the best man this time.

Well, we got rid of our own "Republican" leader earlier this year, and one of the big reasons was because he was joined at the hip with GWB. I think that's why the international community prefers to endorse a party that doesn't have those ties with GWB.

Our "Democrat" equivalent was voted in but there's been no great miracle fixers. However, I am still glad we have him rather than the other option.

I tend to support the party that has an inclusive philosophy and isn't a military bully. I respect the military and am immensely grateful for their role in protecting us but I do not see other countries with different cultures as the enemy. We are truly more and more a melting pot as a world community and people with xenophobic mind-sets have no business being in politics. That's the sad realisation, the USA doesn't appear (to me) to have evolved sufficiently to drop its guard when it comes to people who are "different", even within its own boundaries. That has to happen first.

Whoever wins this election will have a heavy burden to carry; OK that's stating the obvious but I've said it anyway.

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I was reading an interview with a very wealthy Republican businesswoman yesterday - she said that business needs even more of a handout to have incentive to keep jobs here, and to shore up the ones who extended bad credit.

And in my very personal experience, business here in the Tampa Bay area, huge businesses, are taking the tax breaks and handouts and then proudly announcing to the media and stockholders that they are shipping jobs out of the country. Verizon. JP Morgan Chase. Corporations like that.

And then the news this morning is that car sales are down 45%, Detroit needs a handout.

If Republicans don't understand that people without jobs, and people who are afraid they will LOSE their jobs - and people who are denied credit because of job situations - just cannot spend money - then I hope they all fail and we all start over.

I have not seen any corporations give a flying fuck about America, just their profit margin, and they are evidently too stupid to see what is happening.

They have been using money to make money, with no real product. And it is a kind of pyramid sceme - a big Ponzi, with the inevitable breakdown when no one is left to buy.

I don't begrudge jobs to other countries per se, but for Verizon to whine about sales and Detroit to whine about sales and to see businesses fail because of poor sales - people in India spend money in India. Of course they do.

Now, if the whole world is taking American jobs and then investing in American spending habits and debt load and consumerism, then boo-fricking-hoo. The whole armada sinks. They deserve it.

Doesn't matter if the Repubs make a figurehead change. Nothing changes, because they don't actually see America as a separate country except when they need a handout. The corporations and wall street are countries unto themselves, there is no other allegiance.

And it is not gonna work in the long run, the sheep have run out of fleece.

Of course, I think the elected government is more of a figurehead dog and pony show, they did that to themselves, the country has become less important than getting reelected. There should be term limits for all offices. Or else let Bill come back. :-)

I do think it was a bit of a mistake for most Obama campaign rhetoric to be mostly about how wonderful Obama is, because for those who just don't get that, it is/was more of a oh hell no, not another four years of the same failed shit.

I understand that a lot of early voters came in, voted for Obama, and then left without voting for anything else. That is not the way to change the tide.

And a mistake for republican shit-stirrers to not understand that a lot of people are voting against the republican last eight years, not necessarily for Obama.

I see the RNC has filed a suit about misuse of funds for Obama's trip to Hawaii. I do think it was ill-considered for Obama to use campaign funds and plane for that, if there was even a doubt about it. And he consulted with lawyers about it, so there must have been a question in his mind. It doesn't matter in the least if the people who donated don't care, if they went after Palin for using official transportation for her kids, they should have kept their own noses very very clean.

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On a less serious note, Boston Legal was a hoot last night. Spader and Shatner had made a vow to not discuss who they were voting for, then Shatner said he was voting for McCain. Spader asked for two reasons.

1. Salmon. Denny Crane (Shatner) said if McCain won, all the intelligent people would move to Canada and they would figure out out to save the salmon.

2. Sex. Denny said if McCain won, intelligent women would be depressed and thus easier to get into bed.

Later they had a hilarious (to me!) shootout with paintball guns.

At the end of the show, they showed the whole cast voting, then at the traditional ending, sitting in those foam chairs, smoking cigars, and looking out over Boston from a balcony, Denny admits he voted for Obama.

(Here's where to buy those chairs ....design within reach )

I do need to google and see if the FDA really did sue a rancher who advertised that they checked each and every cow for Mad Cow disease, because it gave them an unfair advantage. It would not surprise me to find out that most of the government works for special interest groups.

Oh, yep - here is our profit-driven government in all its tawdry glory....

testing every cow for mad cow would cost too much! the hell with the consumers, it is the meatpackers who are important!

I tried watching the SNL thing, but I think they have just rerun the same stuff so many times, so recently, that it was boring.

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I do think it was a bit of a mistake for most Obama campaign rhetoric to be mostly about how wonderful Obama is, because for those who just don't get that, it is/was more of a oh hell no, not another four years of the same failed shit.

Granted I only followed the election after the nomination, but I think he stuck pretty close to his message about the economy, change, and McCain equals Bush. Can you explain more what you mean here.

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Heh, I have been avoiding this section likethe plague until DJS encouraged me to see her brilliant posts - J/K she thought I would be interested in the discussion.

Since I am hung up on reality being different for everyone just because someone writes something on the internet does not make it true. I.e. Faye e-mail. maybe she did, maybe she didn't. It seems a good targeted introduction to people posting on a Clay board.

Small quote for DJS about sending jobs overseas. I have quoted this for years without a source, yet I am pretty sure this is accurate about someone that I was taught to dislike because he had no problem releasing thugs on young organizers which included my father in Dertoit in the 30's. He was a visionary in many ways and just shows how personal ownership of a company differs from corporations and easily traded stock which reduced your interest in a company to just the next quarter.

Henry Ford: Raising A Nation

n 1914, 13,000 workers at Ford made 260,720 cars. By comparison, in the rest of the industry, it took 66,350 workers to make 286,770. Critics charged that the division of the assembly process into mindless, repetitive tasks turned most of Ford's employees into unthinking automatons, and that manipulation of the pace of the line was tantamount to slave driving by remote control. The men who made cars no longer had to be mechanically inclined, as in the earlier days; they were just day laborers. Ford chose to see the bigger picture of the employment he offered. "I have heard it said, in fact, I believe it's quite a current thought, that we have taken skill out of work," he said. "We have not. We have put a higher skill into planning, management, and tool building, and the results of that skill are enjoyed by the man who is not skilled."

But the unskilled workers, many of them foreign born, didn't enjoy their work, earning a mediocre $2.38 for a nine-hour day. Indeed, the simplification of the jobs created a treacherous backlash: high turnover. Over the course of 1913, the company had to hire 963 workers for every 100 it needed to maintain on the payroll. To keep a workforce of 13,600 employees in the factory, Ford continually spent money on short-term training. Even though the company introduced a program of bonuses and generous benefits, including a medical clinic, athletic fields, and playgrounds for the families of workers, the problem persisted. The rest of the industry reluctantly accepted high turnover as part of the assembly-line system and passed the increasing labor costs into the prices of their cars. Henry Ford, however, did not want anything in the price of a Model T except good value. His solution was a bold stroke that reverberated through the entire nation.

On January 5, 1914, Henry Ford announced a new minimum wage of five dollars per eight-hour day, in addition to a profit-sharing plan. It was the talk of towns across the country; Ford was hailed as the friend of the worker, as an outright socialist, or as a madman bent on bankrupting his company. Many businessmen -- including most of the remaining stockholders in the Ford Motor Company -- regarded his solution as reckless. But he shrugged off all the criticism: "Well, you know when you pay men well you can talk to them," he said. Recognizing the human element in mass production, Ford knew that retaining more employees would lower costs, and that a happier work force would inevitably lead to greater productivity. The numbers bore him out. Between 1914 and 1916, the company's profits doubled from $30 million to $60 million. "The payment of five dollars a day for an eight-hour day was one of the finest cost-cutting moves we ever made," he later said.

There were other ramifications, as well. A budding effort to unionize the Ford factory dissolved in the face of the Five-Dollar Day. Most cunning of all, Ford's new wage scale turned autoworkers into auto customers. The purchases they made returned at least some of those five dollars to Henry Ford, and helped raise production, which invariably helped to lower per-car costs.

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Granted I only followed the election after the nomination, but I think he stuck pretty close to his message about the economy, change, and McCain equals Bush. Can you explain more what you mean here.

I have never had a supporter tell me anything much except that he is wonderful and charismatic and represents change. This is the three people who have come to the door, plus the gist of some political threads (more than just this and the CH, honest) - and my cousin, who works for the campaign.

I am quite frankly uncomfortable with some of the adulation and with glowing stuff, I am just worried about the country and the economy. I honestly figure most of the speeches and planks and whatnot on both sides are just campaign talk, not to be counted on. Learned that lesson from Hillary's (excellent) health plan. Besides, the times I did point out that Obama had changed his stance on some things, I was quickly told well he just needs to say whatever so he can get the nomination and then get elected.

As did the other guy, of course.

So in the end, I just voted Democrat because the only way I would vote Republican is if Bill was running for Prez on that ticket :-O, because that would mean they are gone! Or that Gore had personally reversed global warming and hell had frozen over.

FWIW, perhaps it is my advanced age, but I never thought of Obama as "A Black Man", or of Hillary as "A Woman", they are/were just candidates. I didn't care about the other stuff, so the rhapsodizing over the meaningfulness of either of them being elected kinda zoomed right past me, I saw them as Democrats. Maybe it is from working in IT all my life, where, once women could actually work in that field, all that mattered was if you could do the job, unless you were personally a dumbass or whatever.

Will be quite sincerely interested in seeing exactly what comprises "change", no monkey! (tm TwoP).

playbiller, thanks for that Ford anecdote. The nation is going in quite the opposite direction, thinking quarterly, and now no one can afford to buy the cars. Bwahahahaha! 46% down! So they will take tax handouts, fire more people, and as gravy, raise the price of the cars - all so stocks can continue to rise. I think I can explain what will happen to my grandson.

I know many people agonise over their 401K - but honestly, the only way for them to keep growing is to keep cutting people and costs, or grow new jobs and technologies, which has not happened.

Heeee...playbiller, I didn't say brilliant, maybe, um, wordy and pissed off!

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This country really needs to get rid of the two party system. Both parties put staying in power ahead of the interests of the country as a whole.

Totally agree with this.

Of course, I think the elected government is more of a figurehead dog and pony show, they did that to themselves, the country has become less important than getting reelected. There should be term limits for all offices.

Yep.

So in the end, I just voted Democrat because the only way I would vote Republican is if Bill was running for Prez on that ticket :-O, because that would mean they are gone! Or that Gore had personally reversed global warming and hell had frozen over.

BWAH!

Despite my unhappiness with the choices, I will be voting because I do believe that my vote counts regardless of the outcome. I think I'm going to be waiting in line for quite a while this evening. Only took 45 minutes on my lunch hour. The wait was over 2 hours when I stopped on my way to work this morning and there was no place to park. At least the weather is nice this year, sunny 70s. It's usually cold & rainy.

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but honestly, djs Obama (and some supporters) did mention more (at least where I was reading)...but I tend to get the feeling you disengaged fairly after Hillary lost - not that there's anything wrong with that, but sort of flows into the cynicism we were discussing earlier...

And I give you not seeing the "black man" or "woman" part of the race - but it is a integral and legitimate thing for a huge number of people. Like couchie, I've had to put up with Republicans holding up black people as what's "wrong" with the country for too long for it not to make a difference to me. Being black and a being a woman is a significant portion of who I am - KAndre the human being is made up of a lot of important parts. Saying you don't see one of those parts feels like it lessens me.

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Why would anyone think that the content of that letter, that Faye supposedly forwarded, would influence anybody with half a brain? The letter said nothing but someone's personal opinion. which sounds ignorant to begin with.

I disengaged after Hilary lost, but I still voted for the person and party that most represents my issues, which is Obama and the Democratic party. I respect McCain and the sacrifices that he made for our country. But I definitely do not agree with his politics. I am not too impressed with Obama, but I want to trust that he will follow through on what he has been so articulate about. At least I hope so. He is young, and hopefully he will be idealistic. With a Democratic congress, he should be able to do a lot of good for all of the people who have been forgotten during the Republican Reign. I so understand KAndre's points. They are certainly valid. We do need a lot of change so that America is returned to the people, and taken away from the big corporations and the war mongers. JMO

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