#42: We're still having fun, and you're still the one!

[Cotton]

Re: the finger quotes

I bet he was giving the cameraman a major headache! He was moving ALL OVER THE PLACE! Reseated himself in the chair almost as many times as he changed mic hands when he sang TITN the first time!

[keepingfaith]

I wanted to say one more thing about the OFC. Scarlett, I don't feel superior. It has nothing to do with superiority. Free speech gets to be applied to all. If someone is going to express hateful points of views those views have a right to be countered. The fact that emotion is involved just means people care. It would be nice if we could all be rational but that's hard to do when someone you love is being kicked in the teeth. And in the end, the only thing IMO the free for all accomplishes is letting me know who to avoid at the next Clay concert. I have already said that my intolerance for some of this is judgemental on my part. I know my faults. But I wonder if the people who are spouting words like abomination do. Yeah it would be nice to cut them a break for a week, or two or forever. But who is going to cut Clay a break.

That's exactly how I feel. Aside from the fact that those calling Clay an abomination are also aiming this at all his gay fans and gay family members. It should be enough to say that their religious beliefs preclude associating with gays. That's understandable--people have used the same arguments to preclude associating with Jews and ethnic minorities for years. It explains exactly where a person is coming from.

However, just because someone can find scripture to support prejudice doesn't mean that those with different beliefs should just accept those beliefs as valid. Hindus used to (and in villages STILL sometime) marry child brides. Do we say that's ok just because it's part of a religion? Genital mutilation is done on girls in huge areas of the world. Do we say that's ok because it's part of their belief system? Fundamentalist Muslims blow themselves up to attain glory (and virgins). Do we say that's ok?

I don't think we should draw a line in front of gay bashing and say--OK, that's your belief. It's ok.

Nor do I. A group of Baptists in the South splintered into the Southern Baptists in the 19th century over slavery -- they found the scripture to justify it as God's law. Sadistic religious beliefs are worthy of respect? Fuh-king NO!

The SBC was founded in 1845 in Augusta, Georgia, by Baptists in the South seceding from the national Triennial Convention of Baptists after that body decreed it would not appoint slaveholders as missionaries.

Now, for a change of pace, someone sent me this today and I absolutely love it:

THE DRESS

Jennifer's wedding day was fast approaching. Nothing could dampen her excitement -- not even her parent's nasty divorce. Her mother had found the PERFECT dress to wear and would be the best dressed mother-of-the-bride ever!

A week later, Jennifer was horrified to learn that her father's new young wife had bought the exact same dress! Jennifer told her to exchange it, but she refused. "Absolutely not, I look like a million bucks in this dress and I'm wearing it," she replied.

Jennifer told her mother about the dress and she graciously said, "Never mind, Sweetheart. I'll get another dress. After all, it's your special day."

A few days later, they went shopping and did find another gorgeous dress. When they stopped for lunch, Jennifer asked her mother, "Aren't you going to return the other dress? You really don't have another occasion where you could wear it."

Her mother just smiled and replied, "Of course I do, dear. I'm wearing it to the rehearsal dinner the night before the wedding.

[Couch Tomato]

bwah... love it.

[Bella19]

People is continuing it's good coverage - the dad is gorgeous, but man, that's a fugly shirt!

Stage Dad

Love the quote about the fans!

[merrieeee]

Yep, those finger quotations have been mentioned to me, too.

I was listening to some of ATDW this morning. Everything I Have is quite something to listen to. And I was thinking about how he specifically mentioned the 2nd anniversary of ATDW in that Sep 19th blog. At the time I just thought "cool!" cuz I love the album. But now I wonder if it was more a mention of there being a thousand different ways to love someone, like he used to talk about in that go round of promotion. And then he told us he'd be forever, forever in love with us.

Err I'm starting to get a bit concerned. I was listening to ATDW this morning too and I thought EIH was really something. I have found myself saying me too, to a lot of your posts, recently but last night was the killer........ I dreamt of you!!

Please excuse that there bad grammar you may gets from I! You see being English it doesn't follow that you are good at English grammar*g*

[luckiest1]

Hee, you dreamt about me? Should I take that as a sign to stop postwhoring so much?

[keepingfaith]

I know Clay is too empathetic and kind for this ... but if it were ME, a lover of the provocative, at the next tour I'd come down the aisles singing this song .....

[muskifest]

And then he told us he'd be forever, forever in love with us

Yep, luckiest...the songs from ATDW are showing up in my shuffle at work today, too. And when I heard "Right Here Waiting", I listened with a new ear (never liked it before)....

In fact, it's so very interesting to go back and listen to ALL the songs we've heard Clay sing---MOAM and even before, now knowing that he most likely was aware of his sexual orientation or at least knew of his struggle and confusion before AI...

And of course now listening to "Lonely No More" just simply does me in.

[muskifest]

Hee, you dreamt about me? Should I take that as a sign to stop postwhoring so much?

I might take it as a DIFFERENT sign, actually.

keepingfaith---BWAH! Oh, I'd LOVE that!

[cindilu2]

People is continuing it's good coverage - the dad is gorgeous, but man, that's a fugly shirt!

Stage Dad

Love the quote about the fans!

And I love that they bothered to point out that he's still wearing his stage make-up. There was definitely a time they might have made a completely different mention (connotation) of that.

Those stage door pics are hot!

On the 'finger quotes' - I saw that show in NYC and I would have sworn I saw the actual motion - then when I saw it on Clack, it was out of camera. It really stood out for me.

[Desertrose]

Beautiful man, ugly shirt! Maybe bf has been changing too many diapers. Am I the only one that thinks the front of that shirt looks like the front of a diaper?

[liney23]

Successful people live well, laugh often, and love much. They've filled a niche and acomplished tasks so as to leave the world better than they found it, while looking for the best in others and giving the best they have.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

How many people can honestly say they are successful, using Emerson's criteria? Clay can.

Oh! I just realized that Emerson and Aiken have something else in common!

Waldo!

muski... LOVE this! How would you feel about posting that on OFC???

I wanted to say one more thing about the OFC. Scarlett, I don't feel superior. It has nothing to do with superiority. Free speech gets to be applied to all. If someone is going to express hateful points of views those views have a right to be countered. The fact that emotion is involved just means people care. It would be nice if we could all be rational but that's hard to do when someone you love is being kicked in the teeth. And in the end, the only thing IMO the free for all accomplishes is letting me know who to avoid at the next Clay concert. I have already said that my intolerance for some of this is judgemental on my part. I know my faults. But I wonder if the people who are spouting words like abomination do. Yeah it would be nice to cut them a break for a week, or two or forever. But who is going to cut Clay a break.

That's exactly how I feel. Aside from the fact that those calling Clay an abomination are also aiming this at all his gay fans and gay family members. It should be enough to say that their religious beliefs preclude associating with gays. That's understandable--people have used the same arguments to preclude associating with Jews and ethnic minorities for years. It explains exactly where a person is coming from.

However, just because someone can find scripture to support prejudice doesn't mean that those with different beliefs should just accept those beliefs as valid. Hindus used to (and in villages STILL sometime) marry child brides. Do we say that's ok just because it's part of a religion? Genital mutilation is done on girls in huge areas of the world. Do we say that's ok because it's part of their belief system? Fundamentalist Muslims blow themselves up to attain glory (and virgins). Do we say that's ok?

I don't think we should draw a line in front of gay bashing and say--OK, that's your belief. It's ok.

wanda... bolding mine... I have tried to make this point to my religious friends leaving the fandom by talking about the Old Testament rules for beating your wife. You just can't take some things in the Old Testament and say it's garbage and not say it for others, selectively. By my recollection from my intense Christian stage, Jesus' teachings in the New Testament, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," etc, were to overwrite the Old Testament decrees. Seems to me that was also the premise of the whole Protestant movement. How convenient to just pull out what you want and ignore what you don't want.

I hope this opens a lot of people's eyes to some problems around group think. Clay has always been looked at as someone who is a good Christian boy/man. One who works with children with his foundation and UNICEF. Now, all of a sudden, he an abomination and to be shunned. All that cause he's gay??? How is that not seen as STUPID?

I know... I am preaching to the choir! :F_05BL17blowkiss: FCA :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[keepingfaith]

You speak the truth, Kemosabe. The OT god was vengeful, jealous, and blood-thirsty. In the New Testament, God is Love. The first epistle of John pretty much spells it out. If you don't love your brother, you don't love God.

[muskifest]

How convenient to just pull out what you want and ignore what you don't want.

Agreed, liney...and when I read this I couldn't help but think how often we (the fandom) have been incensed when the media has done that repeatedly when they 'report' anything about Clay.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of those who are most vehemently quoting scripture and/or pointing to this or that 'untruth' of Clay's NOW were very quick to post in blogs or on media websites their INDIGNATION that the story was 'taken out of context' or 'obviously skewed to reflect the reporter's bias', etc.

Funny how that works, huh? :glare:

I'm not suggesting that everyone who is struggling is in this group---I'm just saying I think it would be interesting to see any overlap of voices in the two situations above. (the before and after, if you will...heh)

Oh...and I DID post that Emerson quote on OFC, liney...However, it was near the bottom of a page and at the speed of the posts accumulating there, I doubt many actually saw it!

[muskifest]

Just saw this on People.com about Leo DiCaprio changing his tune about love, marriage, family. Evidently, he's often stated that he doesn't really believe in love or all 'that long lasting stuff'...hee.

"I want to get married and have children," the star of the upcoming Body of Lies and Revolutionary Road, 33, tells Parade. "In saying that, I realize I am contradicting everything I've said before. I absolutely believe in marriage."

<snip>

As for his declarations of the past – and shooting an arrow through Cupid's heart – he says, "No, I don't agree with any of that. It sounds like the ignorance of youth to me. When did I say that? Three or four years ago? Hey, we grow up real fast."

Entire article here:

Leo Wants Love

Hopefully, Leo's fans won't disown him for his change of heart.

[cindilu2]

You speak the truth, Kemosabe. The OT god was vengeful, jealous, and blood-thirsty. In the New Testament, God is Love. The first epistle of John pretty much spells it out. If you don't love your brother, you don't love God.

And as a wise friend said on the Clayboard, *waves to wandacleo* 'If it isn't love now, it wasn't love then.'

[JennaZ]

I've been reading this book by A.J. Jacobs entitled, "The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest To Live The Bible As Literally As Possible." The writer, a secular Jew, decided to try and follow every single law in the bible, Old and New Testament. Some laws are very esoteric and followed by very few people (i.e., the law against wearing clothes of mixed fibers) and some are much broader ("love they neighbor as thyself"). In his search for meaning, he talks to many, including Hassidic Jews, the Amish, fundamentalist Christians, and people of faith who have very liberal interpretations of scripture. I haven't finished the book yet, but what's interesting is that even the most conservative groups have arguments to justify not following every single law in the Bible. The fact is, the Bible contains many, many statements which are difficult to accept literally. What scripture really means is subject of much debate. FWIW, the book also interviews a group of gay Christians who offer their own interpretation of what passages like, "A man shall not lie with a man as he lies with a woman" really mean. More on this book can be found here.

I do understand why some struggle to reconcile certain religious teachings with their own personal feelings. I suspect there are many fans who really want to accept Clay wholeheartedly, but have a lifetime of religious conviction to get past.

But you know, perhaps Clay's coming out will help some fans gain a new understanding and respect for homosexuality. I have gay friends who said that their parents were initially very prejudiced when it came to gay people. One friend said her mother begged her not to come out, "because it would kill your father." For a while, her parents would not even talk to her. But the more they realized that she was still the same person, and the more they got to understand her life, the more accepting they became. Now they're tremendously supportive, and they adore her long-time partner. It wasn't easy. As my friend said when I met them, "You don't know how far they've come." But they did it.

Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I do hope that this experience will help fans become more tolerant. It may not happen right away. But if you love someone enough (and I do think many of those who struggle still really do love Clay), it can happen.

[Lotus]

New from Fountaindawg at CH

Just Who is this Clay Aiken

Very very nice.

[cindilu2]

New from Fountaindawg at CH

Just Who is this Clay Aiken

Very very nice.

That is very cool. I love that the 'new fact' is only the period on the Exclamation point of his life. How apropos. Very, very nice indeed!

[keepingfaith]

Can someone please give me a recommendation for quality cellophanes or whatever material is used in good protective sleeves for my magazines? Some of the so-called sheet protectors aren't very good and the print sticks to them. And .... where can I get the good stuff? I know you librarians know!

[muskifest]

Jenna, I followed that book's link. Looks very interesting and hilarious and sobering and enlightening! And I noticed this at the end of the page:

The Year of Living Biblically has received praise from Publishers Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, The New York Times Book Review, the Los Angeles Times, USA Today and others. It has been optioned for a movie by Paramount Pictures and Plan B productions.

Might this be THE role for Clay's breakout movie career?!?!?!?

[Scarlett]

The OT god was vengeful, jealous, and blood-thirsty. In the New Testament, God is Love.

And the IT god was super hawt and sang pretty too!

couchie, I see where it seemed like I was suggesting "don't post unless you can be nice" but that's not what I meant. I want to post over there and I will. I understand that many can't stomach it and that's completely understandable. I was saying that I think Clay was smart to do this and applaud those who continue to try, however fruitless it seems.

wanda, oh i haven't moved over to say that what those posters are writing is ok. their thinking is wrong and silly. i'm trying to understand where they're coming from because that's the best way to find a way to reach people and move them to your side. the end goal is still for people to understand and accept Clay and anyone else regardless of orientation. I wish I could find a dozen more articles like the Letter to Louise you posted last night.

ansa, I think you've hit the nail on the head. (need to find and add your quote!)

pokes Scarlett with a stick over her "experiment"...

on the science experiment!

and btw we can do superscript here --- 2ⁿ -1

Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I do hope that this experience will help fans become more tolerant. It may not happen right away. But if you love someone enough (and I do think many of those who struggle still really do love Clay), it can happen.

Thanks for the link to the book. I'm optimistic too!

ETA: Found it! [tm: our favorite knight]

(((play)))

Yes this has been difficult for all. I know you are struggling and believe me...there are a lot of your friends that care about that. I know that a lot of members here are coming in and ranting about the OFC thread. Some are being defiant and saying who needs these fans...and some are trying to move on and use humor and fun. BUT it has been tough to watch these reactions because even for those that didn't have a problem with what Clay revealed now has to work through what this revealed about the fandom. Has to try and understand not just Clay but those that are having a problem with it. For the most part I think most of the rantings and ravings are now about the most OTT people out there.

I am glad Clay had that thread open. What that open policy did was let people put their guard down and people are posting from the heart. Right now...Clay has a choice of reading it or not so I am not worried about him. I'm sure he expected the hate...that is precisely why it took him so long to come out. The people that are being the most ugly and intolerant are just hurting themselves at this point. They have shown an ugly side of their personality and I doubt if their fandom can ever be repaired. They probably will go once the thread is closed and for them I will not be sorry.

At this point I think what made this revelation so difficult for some is that we have been made to be defensive about his sexuality for so long. That is not Clay's fault nor is it ours...its the fault of the asshats that think its ok to make fun of an effeminate man...its the fault of those asshats that felt it was their duty to drag Clay out of the closet before he was ready...it was the fault of all those people that suggest we are crazy to go nuts about a gay man... That is what made a lot of fans hold on to every scrap of evidence that he is straight. Lots of fans held on to this trust like a talisman against all the proof or clues of his sexuality. When they were proven to be wrong against all these asshats...it shook them to the core...it tested their perception of their judgement. I believe for these fans...we need to be patient and understanding. I hope they will be able to resolve this conflict and continue to enjoy Clay...

For those that prove themselves to be homophobic...I hope they eventually leave...

so another busy day ahead... :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[ausdon]

By the way... I LOVE FCA AND YOUSE GUYS EXCESSIVELY!!!!

YOUSE??? Where do you think you're from, Philly???

Or Australia? :F_05BL17blowkiss:

ausdon, your post made me think of something my 29-year old son said to me last week. He asked me how the fans on the board are taking the news about Clay and I told him that the fans are overwhelmingly supportive, with a fringe group of religious zealots trying to wreak havoc. I said that while some of the media portrays Clay's fans as narrow minded and homophobic, that in my experience they are open-minded, intelligent and progressive. He said, "Aren't Clay's fans mostly women? And aren't most women open-minded, intelligent and progressive?"

Gotta love KFson

Look, I really have to run because the painter is here, but I see by PM I need to clarify -

I was ranting about the atmosphere of the OFC. I do not blame the mods, it started with posters believing they can fix everything (years ago) and the next thing you know there is out and out constant war because everyone wants to be incharge. It has to stop some time or I don't know what, and so does the running off of the people we don't like. I do fight the atmosphere there, but sometimes the bitch does come out and, Cindilu some very reasonable people have just got up their nerve to post as a few of the more OTT leave. It is very hard for people under the watchful eyes of the critics, probably taking names, hence the stuff you don't see, now if we could only have more than 100 PMs.

I got to run - and since noe one can understand my psots - give me some slack here.

I understand Play and agree that we can't like all of the people all of the time and Clay will benefit by keeping as many happy fans as possible even if it takes them a while to come to terms with this "news".

I used to teach high school English.

This was in the news today...

MONASH University will teach its first-year students grammar and punctuation after discovering that most arrive without basic English skills.

Baden Eunson, lecturer at the university's School of English, Communications and Performance Studies, and convenor of the new course, said about

90 per cent of his first-year students could not identify a noun.

"If you ask them to identify adjectives and other parts of a sentence, only about 1 per cent can manage," he said, according to The Australian.

"It is not really a surprise as only about 20 per cent of English teachers understand basic grammar."

continued.....

I don't know how these kids graduated from high school.

Hey Claytonic! I completely understand. I had a meeting with my sons teacher when he was in grade six. I felt that he should be able to write a grammatically correct sentence that actually made sense more often than not. I was told that ,compared to his peers, he was doing fine ,developing his skills. Maybe that was teacher-jargon? Now, a couple of years later, I asked all his high school teachers and they all said it was something he needs to work on- but apparently none of them ever told him, nothing was mentioned in his report cards( got decent marks), and I don't think they would have mentioned it to me if I hadn't asked as an afterthought as I was about to leave. I think that sometimes they need to tell us the facts in a straight forward way, and that includes the kids. IE if you want to get an A you must put more info in your assignment, proof read better, make it neater etc etc.

Now ,of course, he believes that I am just being picky and that he is doing fine by putting a halfhearted effort in. I can't make him see how wasteful of his talents it is to be satisfied with a C or B when if he put a decent amount of effort in he could get mostly A's. End of rant about nearly fourteen year old and his increasingly dim and out of touch mother.

[annabear]

Hi FCA! And :F_05BL17blowkiss: to georgiesmybaby lurking down there!

Hope your day wasn't bad enough to actually make you throw up, ldyj.

Off to watch the season premiere of Pushing Daisies - love that show!

[merrieeee]

From CH:

Butterflyshine, just said that she just saw Mary and Quiana were going in with Jerome. And they look lovely!!!

It's amazing what you think about on a freaking 1 hour commute!!!!!

I have seen people posting that he is no longer the Clay they fell in love with on AI. Well apart from the obvious he hasn't been that guy in along time.

He was really put into a box by AI & the media when he was on that show. The good boy etc. It's no wonder some put him on a pedestal! In the last few years he really has dispelled that image. He shows up in tight pants and does some suggestive moves on the JBT and rips of choir robes. He is very bawdy in Christmas shows (be proud of your instrument). He grinds on Angela. He sings songs about butts and getting sprung! He talks about bugs down bosoms etc. He does Spamlot a really bawdy and irreverent musical. He announces that he will be at a Friar's Roast-really bawdy! ANd a whole lot more!

I cannot wait to see what he has up his sleeve next....do you think he really might become cool? Nah..what was I thinking..it's Clay*g*