JennaZ

I'd love to meet you guys. I'm not super familiar with the area around The Greek, but I can do a little research. What do you all have in mind, in terms of price, type of food, atmosphere, etc.?

Not every songwriter puts out the definitive version of a song. Dolly Parton wrote "I Will Always Love You," but it was Whitney Houston who brought it to a new level (though I like Dolly's version, too). LAA resonates with me. Now, I could be projecting, but those words, "Maybe I've convinced myself, I've really been in love before," seem especially poignant coming from him. "Maybe this song has no meaning to him, but I feel like it gives me a peek into his soul. When an artist sings a song he wrote, there is that inclination to believe that he has actually felt the emotions he is expressing in music. It can feel a little more real, somehow. Now, I don't believe he must write to connect to an audience, be a true artist, or be taken seriously. However, I do think that his own songs could have an added dimension to them. And I don't think I'm alone. At least one reviewer found the song particularly genuine and captivating. I love "Lover All Alone," not just because he wrote it, but because I remember what it felt like to wonder if I'd ever really fallen in love, or if I ever would. There was a time, when I was a single girl in my thirties, when I thought, "Could be, it's all just a waiting game." I wanted to "share my everything," but had no one to share it with. I still know a lot of single women who ask me hopefully, "Do you know anyone?" I think he captures something in this song that many people can identify with on some level. But it's a subjective thing, clearly.

The idea that Clay is a secret songwriter comes primarily from that single Diane Bubel statement, which Clay has said was wrong. Countering that are many, many interviews in which he has claimed he is not a songwriter, and that LAA is his first real attempt. Personally, I gotta go with Clay. I know there is a popular belief that he won't admit to writing for fear that 19E/RCA would have a share in the royalties, but that always struck me as so petty as to be unlikely, especially now that he has LAA and Lonely No More to his credit. The fact that he is singing LAA tells me that he is proud of his work, and comfortable putting it out in the world. That gives me hope that he will try to write more songs, perhaps with the help of talented musicians. He does have a way with words. He doesn't play an instrument, which may be a hinderence to writing music, but I do think he has a lot of potential as a lyricist. And I've always thought that if he wrote his own words, those songs might have a depth and meaning that would connect and resonate with people in a different way than songs written by others. To me, LAA is evidence of that.

I think the term "poddie" or "pod people" was, for the most part, meant to be a playful term. I have since learned that the term is highly offensive to some, including people I consider friends, so personally, I try not to use it anymore. However, please understand, it was born out of a time when many of us felt bruised and battered by our experiences on other boards, a small minority huddling together amidst the masses who were out for RCA blood. The joy of the concerts and Clay's own statements seemed to have settled things a bit. I'm glad the concerts are going so well, and that we have the opportunity to do what most of us really want to do -- enjoy and appreciate the gift that he is. I am especially delighted to hear that LAA is being received so well. Not only is it great that many of the not.just.us are able to hear this great song, but I'm hoping it gives Clay the confidence to do more songwriting. Yes, I've always been one of those who took him at his word when he said he didn't write. Never bought the Josh Groban song rumor. This latest M&G statement about Diane Bubel only confirms it for me. However, I do think he has a great way with words. Some of the lyrics in LAA are quite haunting. My wish is that this new producer will find terrific melodies for him to work with, music that will connect with him and allow him to free his own creativity. It's not that I need him to write to be credible. I just think that he has a lot of potential that should be developed more fully.

Thanks for your thoughts on ambiguous evidence, artquest. I think we can all agree that there has been a lot of ambiguous evidence floating around the fanboards. I think if we all just concurred that no one really knows what went on, that it's all pure speculation, there would be a lot fewer battles on the boards. I understand why some people believe Clay was screwed by RCA. I get the frustration, the worry, the anger. I see the need to blame the label for Clay's less than spectacular sales. Personally, I don't believe RCA completely comprehends Clay's talent and potential, and that ATDW was not handled as well as it could have been. I just can't bring myself to buy the more extreme theories, i.e., that RCA is trying to ruin Clay, that Clay despises ATDW and is being forced to support the album. Now, if people need to believe otherwise, fine. However, during the height of the discussions, I could not help but feel that taking a less hostile position was viewed as, well, almost disloyal. This may be purely my own sensitivities, but it seemed that if you weren't mad as hell, you were somehow, not on Clay's side. It's the only way I can explain the anger directed toward those who were not angry. And it's why I came here, where it was OK not to be angry all the time. Speculation is part of all fandoms, and I don't expect that to change. I enjoy speculation, myself, and view it as a fun and harmless activity as long as it is recognized for what it is. I'd would just love to see more acknowledgement that evidence is often ambiguous, that it is open to interpretation, and that we rarely have definitive answers.

Glad to hear from you, couchie! I remember all those backchannel rumors, and how many of them seemed to have been dead wrong. I suppose it's possible that some were true at one point, or that there was a grain of truth buried in them somehow. However, my instinct now is to doubt anything that doesn't come from Clay, himself. It surprises me that so many have seemed so willing to take the most extreme position -- that RCA forced Clay to do an album he hated -- purely to devalue him -- because they saw him as some kind of threat. However, there are so many highly plausible intermediate possibilities--that he chose to do covers rather than wait to find better material, that he actually liked the album he put out even if he didn't love the concept, that what happened with ATDW was a miscalculation by RCA and not an act of malice. But people will believe what they want to believe. Thanks for the report, Philly. I believe Clay says he wants an album of originals. As Couchie noted, Clay also said he and the label are "on the same page," which does sound promising. Yes, he may have to fight for what he wants, but rare is the artist who gets everything they want from the label. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that Clay may be a little more focused with this album. He is the kind of guy who learns from experience. When he got cut in the Charlotte auditions, he picked a different song and made it through in Atlanta. When he was eliminated in the first round, he came back with "Open Arms" and put himself into the competition. He lost Idol, but his media saavy helped him quickly surpass the winner in sales and coverage. I wouldn't be surprised if he's analyzed his situation from all angles, and come up with a game plan to get where he wants to be. He may not divulge it to fans at this time. Quite frankly, that wouldn't be prudent. However, I do believe he is more ambitious than he likes to admit, and that what we see is only the tip of the iceberg. FWIW: I like Kelly as a person, and I do think she has talent as a singer. I can understand why she might have felt so committed to her music, especially if it felt deeply personal. However, I do think it was a mistake to include too many angry songs on one album, and an even bigger mistake to publicize her disagreement with Clive.

Thanks for the WSJ link. Very interesting article. It looks like Kelly and The Firm gambled big when they chose to have her write her own songs, and the result was a loss of millions.

What did the WSJ say about Kelly's statement? I can't seem to access the web site.

This makes me think it wasn't hype created by her old management, something she resisted, but something that actually happened, something she felt very comfortable discussing publicly. The media may have encouraged and exaggerated it (because its juicier to tell a story about Sweet Miss American Idol vs. The Big Bad Record Label), but she kept giving these quotes. I suspect she really believed that sales would justify her stance in the end. Hmm.... What kind of role would cause Clay to shave, use tanner, and be bruised? You know, I could actually imagine him in Jericho as a kind of survivor, or sorts. Why shave? Well, if they had to apply make-up (of bruises, cuts, radiation marks, etc.), they might want a clean, smooth surface to work with. Bruising could result from some sort of physical action or stunt. The tanner...well, because he is kind of pale. Or it could be comedic. A lot of physical comedy can be uncomfortable (pratfalls, etc.) Again, hair might be shaved if they wanted to apply something to the skin (like the Kimmel tatoo). It will be fun to find out!

Great posts, everyone! If others feel the need to see Clay as a victim, to spend their days fuming at RCA, or to wallow in misery and worry, so be it. That's their right. That's their fandom. Personally, even if the relationship between Clay and his label were worse than I believed, there really isn't anything I could do about it. And in fact, it's my understanding from recent M&G comments that he doesn't want fans to do anything more than buy his album. I choose to (horror of horrors) take him at his word. Jmh, great list of things that have been promulgated as "fact." Very interesting apology from Miss Clarkson. No doubt, some will claim it's staged, but I do think her situation shows what might happen when an artist doesn't listen to her label. Her fans may disagree, but IMHO, her songs haven't soared due to lack of label support. I think they're just too dark and bitter, and not as good. She probably would have benefited from more time - but she held her ground - and had to bear the consequences. ETA more on Kelly: I actually do think that she's apologizing because she and/or her new manager realized that ranting against RCA/Clive Davis did not help her situation, and because it's beginning to seem as though her artistic choices did not turn out to be as profitable as she thought they'd be. I don't believe her battles with Clive were invented to sell albums. I wouldn't be surprised if she once thought it gave her more rock cred ("fight the power, man!"). But I do think she thought she was right. Maybe she thinks the apology will lead to more money for radio support. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens after this. Like I said before, I think her problem wasn't just the label. I think it was the music. As for Clay - here's my theory: I suspect he has more than just 5th Grader and the skating show in the works. I think he did tape something for television, something we won't see until later. My gut says that Clay recognizes that in some ways, he's more a product of television than radio. In fact, I'd even venture to say that he has better professional relationships in TV than in music. I would not be surprised if he is making a serious effort to break into television in a major way. This could be brilliant. If he can establish himself in TV, the radioplay could follow. It's not the standard route, but he's not your standard artist. I mean, this is pure speculation. However, we all know what a TV fan he is...

I have no doubt that labels wish they could control their artists. After all, it's their money at stake, and they probably trust their business instincts more than the musician's. I can even believe that they would place a higher value on profit than on artistry or loyalty. What I just can't buy is the notion that they would make an artist put out a cover album purely out of spite.They may occasionally employ underhanded methods to get their way, but I believe it's always with the goal of ultimately making money. Is it possible that the label did not respect Clay's artistic choices when they asked for a covers album? Sure. But maybe the original songs he chose weren't the sure thing many fans believed they were. And if TRD and BFM represented what he had, maybe things wouldn't have been that different if he had released an original album. It's hard to say. I can see how RCA might think covers would have broader appeal. I do think mistakes were made with ATDW. However, Clay doesn't seem half as angry and bitter as many fans, which makes me think things are not as hostile as is popularly believed. Congratulations Muski!

I can imagine something along the lines of Couchie's scenario, that RCA evaluated what Clay had in 2005, decided that it needed more work, and proposed a cover album so he could get something out in 2006. If he chose, he could have kept on looking for more material, but it would have made a release date of 2007 more likely, a release date three years after the release of his last album. Was this a "horrible ultimatum"? Maybe to some. However, it does still seem like Clay had a choice. And if he was only "meh" on songs like "Back For More," perhaps he wasn't as committed to the material he had at the time. My guess is that he really has struggled to find the right songs for him. He's not a standard pop singer, and he's not Josh Groban or Michael Buble. However, perhaps the right producer can find him what he needs. He does seem fairly excited with this new one, so hopefully, the search will not be as lengthy.

Thanks for the recaps and reports. It is interesting that there seemed to be a choice between a covers album and a longer wait. If true, I can see why the covers album might have seemed like the safer route. Fans were already climbing the walls, and he may have feared that a serious delay might have kept him away from the public eye too long. Now, he seems to believe that it may be worth the extra time to put togther the right original songs. It also seems that if songs from the 50's were rejected out of radio concerns, he really does want radio play. I do think he is in a positive place when it comes to his career. No, he's not going to get everything he wants. However, he does seem to have a good sense of direction. You can almost see the wheels turning in his head. I think he has more going for him than many believe.

FWIW, I never took offense at Clay's "rotting souls" comment, because I never took it seriously. However, I did take offense at fans who felt they needed to denounce LA and the entertainment industry as a whole, especially those with absolutely no experience in it. Me, too, couchie. I really don't believe he despises RCA as much as many seem to believe. He may not be thrilled with what happened with ATDW, but he probably realizes that other major labels probably wouldn't have handled things differently. I think he's learned some lessons and will approach his next album with more experience under his belt. Shifting to a new label (with new personnel, etc.) might mean he'd have to relearn a new system, with all it's own politics and personnel. With RCA, he already knows who's who and where he stands.

Thank for posting your perspective, lightmyfire. I work in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles, which in the eyes of some, automatically makes me a "rotting soul." While I won't deny that there are asses in the industry, I have to say that my experiences with people are far more positive than negative. And I, too, feel uncomfortable with fan dissections of Clay's friends and family. Clay signed up to be a celebrity, but his mom? Not so much. I find it extremely presumptuous for fans to scrutinize her relationship with him. I'd be willing to bet that he'd be far angrier if he read criticism of her than of him. I do think the major labels are basically the same. Personally I have never seen any credible evidence that he was leaving RCA so I tend to think the report is true.

Great post, Play! 1 - What you said about the WTC was chilling. Wow! 2 - You're so on point about what we, as fans, know and don't know. Speculation becomes "fact" far too easily. Rare is the artist who gets everything he wants from a label, even at the very highest levels. That's just the nature of the business. However, he's a smart guy who seems to learn from adversity. He'll be OK.

Good luck with the new job, Claygasm! Sorry to hear you might not be able to make it to California, Muski. I was looking forward to meeting you. As it is, I'm not sure I'm going to Pala, after all. The more I read about this long, winding road up to the casino, the less inclined I am to drive it alone, even for Clay. And I would be coming from Los Angeles, not San Diego. Not only is it a longer drive, but there doesn't seem to be anyone going the same way. Going to San Diego is not an option, for a variety of reasons. I just don't think I can take off two days, and now is not a good time for me to spend money on hotel rooms. I'm sorry I'll miss all the fun, but I still have the Greek concert. I'd love to meet up with many of you before that one.

I don't think Clay means to create a "privileged" class of fan. I think he sometimes says things out of impulse that he later realizes shouldn't be broadly disseminated. I doubt his CD info is just a test of some kind. I tend to think he's hoping it won't be posted, but probably realizes it will be.

Thanks for sharing your Idol: The Musical reviews. Sounds like a fun idea imperfectly executed. I'm glad it's not derogatory toward Clay or his fans, but judging from the response, it seems like this play is unlikely to make it far. Which is no big deal. A lot of plays and musicals don't make it. The premise and title of the show are enough to draw some interest and press, but if the show isn't that good, I just don't know if it will have the financial backing to make it to the bigger stage. It's one thing to fill up a 100 seat theatre on a weekend. It's another to fill 1500 seat venues day in, day out. It's interesting to hear about what the "target audience" for this show is supposed to be. My guess is that the show is directed toward the Idol audience, which is fairly broad. However, with ticket prices as high as they are ($60), I don't see teens or kids as their specific market. Maybe it's trying to capture families looking for cheaper and more available alternatives to "Wicked," "Beauty and the Beast," or "The Lion King." Quite frankly, I don't see this show having much impact on Clay's career, positively or negatively. There's been some press about it in relation to Clay, but it pretty much came and went pretty quickly. The airplane incident got more exposure than this. It's amusing that they chose Clay, of all idols, as the subject of fan worship. However, a single television appearance reaches more people than an off-broadway play in New York, no matter how long the run. Whether it succeeds or fails, Clay will be OK.

Just as I was stepping out the door this morning, Sam Rubin on KTLA said something like "want to hear a secret? Clay Aiken's getting his own sitcom. Shhh.". I had to leave for work. Anyone on any other boards hear this? Did I hear this right? I'm sitting in traffic illegally writing this on my Blackberry, so I can't surf the net.

Welcome back, weary travelers! Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

Welcome back, weary travellers!

I wasn't home for most of the concert, so I've had to read through the cellcert. Sounds like Clay gave a wonderful show in Houston to night. I'm so happy for all of you who were lucky enough to be there, especially those of you who were disappointed with the Frisco show. It seems like the longer set, superior venue, and a few little tweaks made all the difference. I did watch the LAL clack, and it is heavenly. It's wonderful that he has enough confidence in himself to finally sing a song he wrote. He does have a gift for lyric, I think. Those words, "Maybe I've convinced myself, I've really been in love before..." really are powerful. I can only hope that the positive feedback will encourage him to try and write more. I'm not saying he needs to write to a legitimate artist. I just think that he has more talent in him than he realizes, and that it would be a shame if he didn't try to develop it further.

The interview didn't give me the impression that he thought his album was boring and not worth promoting. I think he merely implied that a concert that had more than just ballads would be more fun. We all have our different theories as to his relationship to ATDW. Some seem to think he hates it and is only performing songs from it by necessity. Personally, I think that he loves the songs on it and is proud of the product. Was it his first choice of format? No, but I don't see any evidence that he's ashamed of the album. If he was, I think he would not be singing as many songs from the album as he is. I think he'd just sing MOAM and different covers. Remember, "Touch" was on his first album and he's never sung it live, despite the pleading of fans. He can be pretty stubborn, that one. I do think he has been a bit apologetic for the format, because he knows that some are dismissive of cover albums. I also think he's looking forward. His discussions about his new producer "making me a little more hip without trying too hard" suggest that he does want to reach another level. However, I don't believe he's as done with ATDW as some of his fans are.

Yeah, I don't see this as a "treading water" tour. I think he's swimming with direction and focus. Some seem to want to believe that he despises ATDW as much as they do, that he's only singing these songs because he has nothing else to sing, and that this is just a money-making venture to pay the bills until his "real album" can be released. I don't buy that. I think he tours because he loves to perform. Yes, the money helps, but I don't think it's his primary motivation. And he's said many times that he's proud of the album he recorded. Just because it wasn't his choice of format, doesn't mean he hates it. He may have been mandated covers, but I believe he did get to choose what songs to record (even if he wasn't responsible for the final list). I think he's choosing to sing songs from ATDW not just to promote the album, but because he actually enjoys singing them. Seriously, I don't think anyone, not even a label, could make him sing anything he didn't want to sing. Fans begged and pleaded for "Touch" and he's never sung it in concert.