djs111

Politics'R'US

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Just a place to ponder and pontificate and mutter and look all squinty-eyed at the state of the union. Prolly one should park their personal feelings at the door....................or at least protect those feelings from harm!

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So, since this isn't much of a main thread topic, I'll just wander in here and state that if anyone feels like waxing political, I'm up for a chat.

I have a medium amount of knowledge and a whole lot of opinion and don't mind discussing issues. I'm a Dem, as is my immediate family, but I have had elected officials in the Rep. party in my extended family, uncles, cousins, etc.

My son has been an elected official for the last 13-14 years, I can't remember exactly. He is a delegate to the Democratic convention supporting Obama, and a member of the Electoral College. (He says he will wear his powered wig) He is 6 years older than Clay. My husband is an elected official (local) as well as is my DiL. (state) My daughter was a precinct judge for several years. I mostly stuff envelopes and make those annoying phone calls.

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Good for you and your family, laughn. I think I've been a political junkie since age 3, the summer when my dad bought our first TV and we watched the Republican and Democratic conventions gavel to gavel. I actually remember it. The hoopla and celebrating and parading around the convention floor was entertainment enough for me!

And the McCarthy hearings, I remember watching those too. I didn't understand what was going on, but the intensity was interesting enough for this little kid.

I read Goldwater's Conscience of a Conservative when I was eleven, Kennedy's Profiles in Courage at twelve, and Nixon's Six Crises when I was 13. My sense of citizenship was ignited by the assassination of John F. Kennedy when I was 15. I read the Warren Report when I was 16. I've often said that I believed the Warren Report, until I read it. So right off I knew my government was lying to me. And I was curious as to what else they were lying about. I'm still in the process of discovering the answer to that one.

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Bringing this over from the main thread. to respond to.

Or how about the bullying of the voter if we aren't voting the way they want? Calling us names.

Yes, I am rather sick of being told I’m a traitor to my gender by not voting for Hillary (hell will freeze) or that I’m too young and naïve to remember how it was for women. Right.

Clayzor, the Dem party rules may be against the law in your book, but they're not against the law in THE books. Dems and Reps make up their own rules for the presidential primaries -- which is why Reps have a winner take all system, and Dems have delegate apportionment system. The Florida and Michigan "penalties" were established in August 2007 and December 2007, respectively, at times when I doubt anyone at the DNC imagined that the primary season would extend beyond February 5. Had that happened and Hillary had run away with the nomination, as was expected since the 2004 elections, it would have been a non-issue. But, that ain't what happened. Florida and Michigan delegates will be seated at the convention -- something will be worked out. But at this point, I think it's time to accept reality. The fact is, as much as I love Hillary, last year and in the snows of Iowa she made a fundamental mistake by looking past the nominating process to run a centrist general election campaign. It flopped because Democrats are pissed off and have been voting in unheard of numbers to CHANGE. When she finally began campaigning as a change agent and champion of working people and poor people, it started turning around for her ... but too late. Her advisers were completely unaware of the political climate in the country -- but she kept those honchos and continued to listen to them for far too long. Sometimes loyalty doesn't work out.

Marry me. <g>

Also, when the Governor of Michigan called Dean to say he was moving the primary, Dean told him he would be penalized. But he called Dean's bluff. Mistake. <g>

Seriously, Hillary turned me off with her campaign. Totally and completely.

But, I can't hold Hillary blameless for this. I had so many family members and friends who were Hillary supporters last year and she completely turned them off talking jingoism and a commission to study social security AGAIN, and not admitting a mistake over Iraq, and a hundred other things. My son who loved the Clintons in the 90's started calling her Republican Lite -- and saying "if I liked Karl Rove tactics I'd be a Republican." Writ large, that's what happened to Hillary.

Exactly. Even though I’ve been calling her Bush-lite for what feels like a couple years now, I would have voted for her if she had been the nominee. But certainly not now. Luckily I won’t have to worry about it.

Legal or not, IMHO< it is undemocratic and unethical. To me Democracy means you go with the majority. The person with the majority of votes in any and all statets should get all the delegates.

That method actually disenfranchises more voters. If Hillary wins Texas by one point, she gets ALL the delegates??? How is it fair that winner takes all? What about the 49% that didn’t vote for her? In any case, Obama has won the popular vote, the delegates, the super delegates and more states. What Hillary is trying to do now is to get the delegates to go with her even though she didn’t *win* anything. Reminds me of Bush, actually. Between that and her people not knowing about the proportional allocation of delegates (and her not firing those people immediately) – well, how you run a campaign is probably a measure of how you will govern.

I'm not going to get into a political debate either, but I will just say this!!! IMHO the media and the DNC has picked our nominee for us. Wouldn't matter what Hillary did or didn't do. Public manipulation by the media's lovefest over Obama is so blatant even a fifth grader can see it. I'll be very disappointed in her if she takes the Vice president position. That is all.............. :imgtongue:

Heh. I’ll be disappointed if it’s offered to her.

I agree the system needs an overhall – but not in the middle of an election when the previously anointed candidate suddenly finds herself losing. As for the media, perception is a funny thing, because IMO she got off easy. Reverend Wright, anyone?

The Republican party has a winner take all delegates in their primaries, don't they? Does that mean that all those voters are disenfranchised? How can you be disenfranchised, when the majority rules is used? I don't hear Republican voters crying about the 49% of the people who didn't vote for Bush....I guess I don't understand. I admit to falling asleep in Civics class and I have slept A LOT since then. :cryingwlaughter: I think they should do away with delegates, and primaries, and especially caucuses, period................Winner of each state wins that state and the person who wins the most states is the winner. No separate parties either. No Democratic, no Republican, no Indepent. ONE PARTY, united for the good and will of the people. Not the select few and the wealthy.

:cryingwlaughter: I don't think Obama has much of a choice but to ask Hillary to be his running mate. Does he? That is if he expects to beat McCain in November. He hasn't won an important state that the party will need for a win in Novemember, has he? He has mainly just won caucus states. No matter who you are, what color you are, or who you're married to. A Democrat has to be able to get the senior voters, the working middle class voters, and the Catholic vote in order to be president. That's what I have heard repeated over and over on these TV news shows. I know neither one of them love each other but like someone said, it's politics. I know how much Obama's wife hates Hillary too. I know lots of people hate the Clintons. I know the press has been relentless against them for years,, and years, and years, and years. I don't see that ever changing. Most of it they have wrong and most of it came from John Mellanscath? and the far right wing Republicans. But, you know what? It is a testament to them that are still here and still loved and respected by a lot of America. I also find it insulting to be labeled poor and uneducated, if I vote for Hillary. It is absurd to think that no educated, young, or smart people would vote for her. However if you listen to the media singing that song, for as long as they have, I could see where people might start believing that. :cryingwlaughter:

This is the most exciting historical election I will ever see in my lifetime and I take it very seriously. I'm very passionate about the Clintons. I find them to be two of the smartest political minds of my time. Second only to John Fitzgerald Kennedy who I loved with all my heart. Can't find anything good to say about Ted, though. If anyone should be compared to the Kennedy's it should of been them. They have modeled their whole political life after the Kennedys. IMHO.

I don't want my opinions and thoughts reduced to me being labeled as something I am not, or offending other members, so I think I will bow out of the political discussions. I will be reading though. I have not missed much of anything that has been on the news since this started. So while I am not as learned as some are here, about politics, I am smart enough to interpret what I see and hear and read and make my decisions accordingly. I don't go with the flow or the mood or the flavor of the month. In other words I can think for myself and I don't need Howard Dean making up rules that the Republicans can turn around and use against us, and I don't need the media telling me it's over when the fat lady hasn't sung yet............ :cryingwlaughter:

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How ever each party runs the primaries, they are not fair to the states that come last. This is the true disenfranchised (and include Florida and Michigan because they tried to get in early). By the time the election got to my state there were only two candidates and I would rather not have chosen either. Why? I want to win and I want an economic conservative that can get the budget of crack, I want someone that does not have extra hurdles - at least this year, this important year when more Supreme court judges retire. I don't think any DEM running now can win, there is too much to over come. I am not a bigot, I am just someone who wants to win right now..

I have a theory that John McCain won't be running. Fear said his face looks swolen and she thinks it might be the cancer. So, while I thought there would be an unknown that no one can say anything about because they don't know him, Fear believes that JEB will come in the last minute to win.. IIIIICCCCKK.

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keepingfaith, I am so impressed with you knowledge. I came from a family where my father didn't vote...ever. As a teenager someone offered him money to vote for their candidate, and that was that. I sometimes wonder if he had been alive when my son first ran for office if he would have changed his mind. I don't know. My son is the one who decided to become a 'public servant' (his words, not mine) and I have been trying to catch up ever since.

Clazorback wrote:

This is the most exciting historical election I will ever see in my lifetime and I take it very seriously. I'm very passionate about the Clintons. I find them to be two of the smartest political minds of my time. Second only to John Fitzgerald Kennedy who I loved with all my heart. Can't find anything good to say about Ted, though. If anyone should be compared to the Kennedy's it should of been them. They have modeled their whole political life after the Kennedys. IMHO.

We are making history this year, no matter who steps out as the winner of the race, or as the new President. How we vote, and who we vote is already in the history books. Passion is good, but at the end of the day, if the Democrats win, we're all going to have to pull together to make this presidency work. If we can't, then we're dooming whichever one takes office to running the country with one hand tied behind their back. I don't think either Hillary or Barack would be content in the second position.

Now I had a bunch more to say that I just deleted, because I have to think. :cryingwlaughter: So, I will be back later.

ETA...play wrote:

Fear believes that JEB will come in the last minute to win.. IIIIICCCCKK.

Let me just say IIIIICCCCKK with you on that

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keepingfaith, I am so impressed with you knowledge. I came from a family where my father didn't vote...ever. As a teenager someone offered him money to vote for their candidate, and that was that. I sometimes wonder if he had been alive when my son first ran for office if he would have changed his mind. I don't know. My son is the one who decided to become a 'public servant' (his words, not mine) and I have been trying to catch up ever since.

Clazorback wrote:

This is the most exciting historical election I will ever see in my lifetime and I take it very seriously. I'm very passionate about the Clintons. I find them to be two of the smartest political minds of my time. Second only to John Fitzgerald Kennedy who I loved with all my heart. Can't find anything good to say about Ted, though. If anyone should be compared to the Kennedy's it should of been them. They have modeled their whole political life after the Kennedys. IMHO.

We are making history this year, no matter who steps out as the winner of the race, or as the new President. How we vote, and who we vote is already in the history books. Passion is good, but at the end of the day, if the Democrats win, we're all going to have to pull together to make this presidency work. If we can't, then we're dooming whichever one takes office to running the country with one hand tied behind their back. I don't think either Hillary or Barack would be content in the second position.

Now I had a bunch more to say that I just deleted, because I have to think. :cryingwlaughter: So, I will be back later.

ETA...play wrote:

Fear believes that JEB will come in the last minute to win.. IIIIICCCCKK.

Let me just say IIIIICCCCKK with you on that

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My heart was with John Edwards in this campaign and not just because he didn't have to overcome hurdles, but because he was the most passionate and I agreed with him on more things than I did the other candidates ... and because I love Elizabeth Edwards.

But, Play, I've been a serious conspiracy theorist since 1964, and I actually have more substantial hope than I've had since Watergate days that the population is finally wising up to what's been going on. If that's overly optimistic, at least it's clear to me that the country will be voting for change in a big way in November.

Hillary wasn't on top of the game. I have my ear to the ground and Hillary started leaking support by the bucketfuls late last year and she made no adjustments. When she sought and received the support of Richard Mellon Scaife -- that was anathema. The holding hands with Rupert Murdoch and blowing kisses to John McCain may have seemed smart at the time, but no Democrat that's been paying attention for the past 20 years could have been comforted by that.

Americans increasingly don't trust the government, or corporations, or the media, or just about any other institution in this society because corruption is open and rampant. Everything seems fixed. Sure, it's been fixed for a long time, but now it's so blatant that it's in our faces, and supreme arrogance always leads to downfall.

I've never, ever seen young people so energized and involved as they are this time. They're pissed too -- about the war, about education costs, about the lack of energy alternatives, about the condition of the planet. I hear them every day. There will be change.

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keepingfaith wrote:

Hillary wasn't on top of the game. I have my ear to the ground and Hillary started leaking support by the bucketfuls late last year and she made no adjustments. When she sought and received the support of Richard Mellon Scaife -- that was anathema. The holding hands with Rupert Murdoch and blowing kisses to John McCain may have seemed smart at the time, but no Democrat that's been paying attention for the past 20 years could have been comforted by that.

While I agree with the heart of this, I am wondering if instead of her seeking out Mellon Scaife, he threw money at her as a backhanded slap to his ex, a supporter of Obama, and Hillary said, 'I don't care what your issues are, you psycho, I'll take your money.' She was in short supply of cash.

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Hillary wasn't on top of the game. I have my ear to the ground and Hillary started leaking support by the bucketfuls late last year and she made no adjustments. When she sought and received the support of Richard Mellon Scaife -- that was anathema. The holding hands with Rupert Murdoch and blowing kisses to John McCain may have seemed smart at the time, but no Democrat that's been paying attention for the past 20 years could have been comforted by that.

Can I have a source for Hillary sseeking support from Mellon. Yes he is supporting her, but we have to look to what FDR said when his opponent accused him of having communists support him. He said anyone was free to support him, it idid not mean he supported them. Much likethe Clay fandom, stuff has been thrown around under the radar on this campaign and has emerged as fact when it is only fake Hillary. I would have Fear reply on this except she is packing for a trip where she won't have internet access.

Edited to be more polite. Must have a sense of humor..

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Hillary wasn't on top of the game. I have my ear to the ground and Hillary started leaking support by the bucketfuls late last year and she made no adjustments. When she sought and received the support of Richard Mellon Scaife -- that was anathema. The holding hands with Rupert Murdoch and blowing kisses to John McCain may have seemed smart at the time, but no Democrat that's been paying attention for the past 20 years could have been comforted by that.

Can I have a source for Hillary sseeking support from Mellon. Yes he is supporting her, but we have to look to what FDR said when his opponent accused him of having communists support him. He said anyone was free to support him, it idid not mean he supported them. Much likethe Clay fandom, stuff has been thrown around under the radar on this campaign and has emerged as fact when it is only fake Hillary. I would have Fear reply on this except she is packing for a trip where she won't have internet access.

Edited to be more polite. Must have a sense of humor..

That comparison would only be viable if FDR had made a trip to the offices of the American Communist Party and submitted himself to a battery of questions, including questioning by the head of the American Communist Party himself, in a concerted effort to win their endorsement. And if under those circumstances an endorsement was given and accepted with much fanfare, it wouldn't exactly be an unsought and unwelcomed endorsement, would it?

From the AP in April:

Clinton met with the Tribune-Review's editorial board, including Scaife, last month. Afterward, Scaife wrote an editorial titled "Hillary, Reassessed," declaring how impressed he had been by the former first lady.

"Her meeting and her remarks during it changed my mind about her," Scaife wrote.

Scaife spent $2.3 million to fund a series of articles by The American Spectator magazine that dug into Bill Clinton's behavior as governor of Arkansas.

Bill Clinton and Scaife made nice with each other last year and I couldn't figure it out then. I'm sure that Scaife and the Clintons are working their own angles and I don't pretend to understand the underlying depths of the games being played here ... but I do recall the old adage that when you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

What jumps out at me when I see her meeting with Scaife in person to seek his endorsement after he spent several years and many millions branding her a murderer is that she's willing to do just about anything.

http://www.slate.com/id/2187547/

It's very, very strange for me because I defended the Clintons for years in a place where I was the lone defender against the lies and manipulations and conspiracies of one Richard Mellon Scaife. Call it political expediency or whatever you want to call it, but if the power is so enticing that she's willing to do absolutely anything, including kissing up to RMS, then I'm suspicious. Couple that with Rupert Murdoch holding a fundraiser for her, and both eyebrows go up.

Did something happen to the Clintons on their way to becoming mega-millionaires? These aren't the same two people I remember from the '90s.

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I don't know if meeting with an editorial board is seeking out Richard Mellon's endorsement. Seems to me that every candidate would try to get editorial support in the primary state. I only saw her laugh about it on a TV show where she said "Who would have thought it?" I don't live in PA so I didn't really follow her there. My focus was in NC which we knew would be a long haul. I did a lot of phone banking and was subject to some extremely rude comments about her.

Hillary was forced to be responsible for the Clinton years and to discuss everything that Bill did wrong. Obama was blessed in that he only had to run on the autobiography he wrote. If he wins the nomination I will vote for him with no qualms. Last night a friend sent me a really nasty column written against Obama. I told her I was not interested in that stuff and thought the columnist, a black man, was an extreme right winger. I guess people assume because Hillary is portrayed as a nasty person that her supporters must be. My Hillary sign was taken out of my yard before the primaries but all the other signs were left there. So the hate goes on.

I saw both Hillary and Bill speak and they only had nice things to say about Barack. Hillary was speaking with Maya Angelou, who supported her and it was a nice warm conversation until a ditsy girl got up to supposedly ask a question and brought up Bill's dalliance with Monica. She and her daughter were harrassed with this at almost all their appearances. I guess it was a protest of sorts. Nevertheless they continued allowing questions.

My reason in supporting Hillary is that in her speech as well as Bill's they mentioned accountability for tax cuts. Hillary is all for a balanced budget which to some may seem "middle of the road", but to me is important for the economic security of this country. I have not seen Barack address this and it is a major concern of mine.

Hillary doesn't come across as well on tv as Barack but in person her speeches are dynamite. She is warm compassionate, concerned but put a camera on her and it all seems to disappear. But to my number cruncher mind she is the most experienced candidate and has the most to offer. But I will vote for whichever one wins.

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My heart was with John Edwards in this campaign and not just because he didn't have to overcome hurdles, but because he was the most passionate and I agreed with him on more things than I did the other candidates ... and because I love Elizabeth Edwards.

I'm with you here. Our primary here in Ohio was tough since he was still on the ballot, but officially out of the race. There are actually quite a few Edwards supporters at work and in talking about all of this, we've found that we're all over the place as to who we're going to support in Nov.

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Richard Mellon Scaife Thanks. :F_05BL17blowkiss: I can never get his name right. keepingfaith I don't understand who your voting for this year. :cryingwlaughter: If you are so turned off by Hillary, as you say you are, then why did you campaign for her in Texas? I'm kind of lost here. Which is not unusual. :cryingwlaughter:

Hillary isn't the only one, though, who will do whatever it takes to get what they want. I think most all politicians will and have. I don't understand friends, though, who become disloyal to their friends for personal political gains. Such as Edwards and his wife, who does support Hillary. Didn't they lose a child? Was Obama there for them when they did, or wasn't that Hillary and Bill? I loved Edwards until he did that. Now he has lost my vote for any future plans to run for any office. Same for the Governor of New Mexico, Richardson. Didn't Bill give him two jobs? He wouldn't be where he is today if it weren't for Bill and Hill. Ted Kennedy friends with the Clintons for years. Abandons them. I literally cried over that. Add that fu**ing fruitcake Dick Morris to the traitor list along with a few others. See, to me, friends turning against friends for political gain is much worse than Hillary taking financial support from that fuc*er Mellon Scaife. He owes the Clinton's bigtime for the lies and hardships he has caused them. I say use him and abuse him. I have seen that article you posted above. Although I thought she met with him at his request. I thought that is what I had heard from one of the so called TV pundits/contributor/expert, what ever the hell you want to call those idiots who give their advice and make their predictions. They know shit most of the time. Those who can do and those who can't become pundits. :cryingwlaughter:

I would not vote for McCain simply because he is Republican and I will never vote Republican again. Although I do think he leans more Democratic in his thinking. After that impeachment fiasco with Bill Clinton, I vowed never to vote Republican again. I won't vote for Obama because I think he is too green and inexperienced. The first time I saw him, my impressions where that he is young, attractive, smart, cocky, arrogant, and full of himself. Nice tush not withstanding. *g*I don't find him all that articulate. He says Uhhh and pauses an awful lot. It's great to say you're an agent of change, but how does he think he is going to make those changes and who is going to pay for them. He gives very little content about policy in his speeches.The first time I saw and listened to his wife, she came across in a way that suggests the world owes her something. He's pretty much had a free ride through this election process. He's never been vetted. Other than the company he keeps, I don't know a thing about him. I really do think Hillary is the best qualified, most experienced candidate running. Besides being the best woman we will probably ever have, for a long long time, that would even have a shot at winning. I have waited many years for her to run. Just as I'm sure African Americans have been waiting a long time for the first African American president. I think that is wonderful. The most exciting and historical election for many reasons. If Hillary had not of been running in this election I would of voted for Senator Biden. He is another one I have been waiting years to see run for president.

The country is rising up and wanting change. More and more people are coming out to register and vote for the first time ever. Even a lot of Republicans have changed to Democrats, because they have had it with their party. The Republican party is in turmoil. Way more turmoil than Hillary is causing the Democratic party, by staying in this race until the end. I think a lot of their problem is letting religion dictate morals for the whole country as well as being for the few wealthy of this country and not giving a flying flip about hard working Americans and their needs. more than anything else. I think it is wonderful that so many young people have registered and shown an interest in the voting process. Let's hope they carry that enthusiasm to the polls this November, though. Historically it has been shown that young people don't show up in the general election. Lots of seniors do, though.

Oops, I wasn't going to discuss politics was I? My bad. I never do really. I guess the excitement this year prevents me from keeping it to myself. I apologize.

One last thing I would like to say, though. I don't think whoever wins the presidency is going to make changes and reach across the aisle and make everything all better. That includes Hillary and McCain as well as Obama. It will be politics as usual. As I've always said, and still believe, it is the special interest groups and their lobbyists who run this country. Not our elected president. One thing I have learned over all these years is that you can count on this. They aren't going away anytime soon. So I hope people won't be surprised when miracles don't happen.

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I don't know if meeting with an editorial board is seeking out Richard Mellon's endorsement.

* * *

My reason in supporting Hillary is that in her speech as well as Bill's they mentioned accountability for tax cuts.

* * *

Hillary doesn't come across as well on tv as Barack but in person her speeches are dynamite. She is warm compassionate, concerned but put a camera on her and it all seems to disappear. But to my number cruncher mind she is the most experienced candidate and has the most to offer. But I will vote for whichever one wins.

First, there's no way around the Scaife business, and I wish there were. It was his paper, and he is the editorial board for all practical purposes. The pictures are available for googling to see the two of them together having a wonderful time. And he personally wrote the editorial endorsement for the paper. I can't stomach it.

Accountability? I'm interested in accountability for the hundreds of billions of dollars spent to make us much less safe, while sacrificing thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of innocent lives for nothing. I'm looking for that accountability. Is anybody addressing that?

I do understand exactly where you're coming from, Fear. I have an uncle who is freaking out that Hillary seems to be losing the nomination. Several years ago when she was on a book tour, he stood in line for hours in the hot sun in Dallas and passed smooth out on the concrete. They moved him inside and got him something to drink and then Hillary appeared, gave him an autographed book and held his hand for a while. Yeah, he loves her a lot and gets really angry when people call her cold and calculating.

I'm in the middle as usual trying to keep peace in the family over politics!!! I do know one thing, there's not a one of them that won't vote Democrat in November, no matter whose name is on the ballot. Even if it's that old Texas yella-dawg!

My heart was with John Edwards in this campaign and not just because he didn't have to overcome hurdles, but because he was the most passionate and I agreed with him on more things than I did the other candidates ... and because I love Elizabeth Edwards.

I'm with you here. Our primary here in Ohio was tough since he was still on the ballot, but officially out of the race. There are actually quite a few Edwards supporters at work and in talking about all of this, we've found that we're all over the place as to who we're going to support in Nov.

It's obviously going to be Obama in November. I like to face reality and deal with it, and the handwriting has been on the wall for a couple of months already. Obama drawing 75,000+ yesterday in Oregon, and old Sen. Byrd endorsing today ... West Virginia's Sen. Byrd .... there's no getting around it anymore.

I keep hearing that Hillary is persevering to pressure Obama to put her, or one of her surrogates, on the ticket. I have no idea whether that's true or not, but it does make sense. I don't think Obama wants her on the ticket; and I would have guessed she wouldn't want it. The scuttlebutt says that's what this is all about. And one reason why Obama doesn't want her on the ticket is, according to what I hear, so that this can be the first election since 1976 without a Bush or a Clinton on the ticket. I think this has influenced a lot of people who want BIG CHANGE and think it's time for a fresh start. It is ponderable that this country has had either a Bush or a Clinton as Prez or Vice Prez since 1981. Which is why I see Wesley Clark as a strong, potential Veep candidate.

ETA: Just read your your post, Clazorback. You know I love me some Bill Clinton and always will because there's no one that can touch him ... not even Hill and she's very, very good. But what happened here when it started to slip away has been really ugly, and loyalty only goes so far. And that is why I don't understand saying that because you supported someone in January, you have to support them in June. I don't get that, unless they're making my house payment or holding me hostage. I don't respect the hardball Rovian tactics the Clintons are employing to win at any cost. I just do not. The end never justifies the means in my book of ethics. Granted, the truth is the first casualty of most political campaigns, but the twisting and spin has been much too obvious and coarse for my blood. It cuts against my grain. I'm not loyal to any person as much as I'm loyal to my own moral code and ethical standards. You breach that, I will walk away.

But I'm overstating this without a doubt, as I will vote for the Democratic candidate in November, whoever he or she may be, for a million different reasons. So, at this point, it's actually totally impersonal to me as to names and faces. And Clayzor, while I do understand your passion for Hillary ... I just don't get the anger you have for anyone who opposes her. It's a freaking election for crying out loud. I've been up to my chin in politics and I've won some and lost some -- but I don't get the anger, because Hillary has played it hard and rough herself, and there's no victim here. It's a change year and she's not a change candidate. She would have undoubtedly won had she run in 2004. Just like Cuomo would have won in 1988. Timing is everything in politics. And so it goes.

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I respect anyone with a passion for politics no matter where their passions fall. I used to have passion. I used to register folks to vote and get them out to the polls. Now, I don't believe in anyone, especially at the federal level. I think they all want to get in office and will do anything and say anything to get there and will do and say anything to stay there. And almost everything coming out of their mouth is spin or damage control.

I don't listen to the "talking heads." I don't think they are good for this country. NONE OF THEM.

Such a difference from when Bill Clinton came into office. And while I supported him to the end, and have come to despise the words "special prosecutor" he was an idiot. And frankly if there had not been such a pile on I would have cut him loose like I did some others I used to admire. And his charisma and his smarts (in most areas) did a number on me. I guess because I so admired him he had the ability to disappoint me greatly. He cited Rwanda as his biggest regret - I don't blame him. But it's all about politics, not sticking your neck out for right.

The funny thing is that the things I always admired in the Clintons, their ability to somehow stay on top while one after one of their opponents had huge falls is probably the thing that is bugging me now. They are used to fighting hard and winning. However, what's acceptable when you fight those in an opposing party is not acceptable to me when fighting within your party. The Repulbicans can use her and her words in a campaign against Obama if he wins the nomination. I'm just going to vote for whoever is the nominee at the end of the day but she has so alientated my mother that she might not even fill out her ballot when the time comes if she were to win the nomination. That's a problem.

I'm not following this election closely. I'm sick of it already. It seemed like it started a year too early and I'm already burned out. I saw Obama early on in his campaign and wasn't blown away. I have no doubt he's gotten better since people seem to think he's a media darling and it's all about image over substance. The only way I can even get myself to have a little interest is that I care about who is on the Supreme Court - that's it and that's all. As for experience? Means nada to me. The lifetime politicians have screwed up this country enough.

I don't know if I'll ever pull myself out of this state. I'm glad to see young folks involved. I just hope they are still passionate at the next election and don't turn into a "me."

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I will just WORD every damned word of Clayzorback's.

I have exactly the same feelings about Obama, the Clintons, and all the conveeeniently late-to-the-party endorsements.

The first time I saw Obama (I do not ever listen to political speeches, rhetoric makes me nauseous), he was a guest on Conan OBrien's show when Conan spent a week in Chicago in 2006. I saw him just as Clayzorback described him. And when Conan asked him if he wwas going to run for prez in 2008, Obama said no, he was just a green junior senator, he did not have the experience.

And he has done nothing but run for prez ever since.

Just remember, no matter how many delegates and super delegates Obama has, with all the money and exposure at his disposal, he has only managed 2.2% more of the popular votes - at the MOST, depending on if Florida is counted, then it is less - and all those delegates can only vote once in the general election. So almost half of the people who are Democrats and saw Obama and Hillary - picked Hillary.

There is no groundswell. I am worried.

A friend of mine who works downtown said that for Obama's visit here in Tampa Wednesday, they have given away 30,000 tickets.

For a 20,000 seat venue. They are giving wads of tickets away in offices all over town. I am sure it will be reported as a sell-out.

Funny, I remember that when the Dems were running for congress a couple of years ago, "things were going to change". Well bullshit.

Nothing changed.

The Repulbicans can use her and her words in a campaign against Obama if he wins the nomination.

But Obama was saying things like Hillary is "deeply flawed". So they both are guilty of that, unless Hillary was just supposed to disappear when Obama first declared he was running.

And please do not dismiss my feelings about Obama as just anger because he is running against Hillary. That is easy and cheap to do, please just don't do it. There is a reason almost half the voters picked Hillary and it is not anger. I do believe she would be the best president at this point in time.

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One last thing I would like to say, though. I don't think whoever wins the presidency is going to make changes and reach across the aisle and make everything all better. That includes Hillary and McCain as well as Obama. It will be politics as usual. As I've always said, and still believe, it is the special interest groups and their lobbyists who run this country. Not our elected president. One thing I have learned over all these years is that you can count on this. They aren't going away anytime soon. So I hope people won't be surprised when miracles don't happen.

Unfortunately, I agree with this.

I respect anyone with a passion for politics no matter where their passions fall. I used to have passion. I used to register folks to vote and get them out to the polls. Now, I don't believe in anyone, especially at the federal level. I think they all want to get in office and will do anything and say anything to get there and will do and say anything to stay there. And almost everything coming out of their mouth is spin or damage control.

I don't listen to the "talking heads." I don't think they are good for this country. NONE OF THEM.

Such a difference from when Bill Clinton came into office. And while I supported him to the end, and have come to despise the words "special prosecutor" he was an idiot. And frankly if there had not been such a pile on I would have cut him loose like I did some others I used to admire. And his charisma and his smarts (in most areas) did a number on me. I guess because I so admired him he had the ability to disappoint me greatly. He cited Rwanda as his biggest regret - I don't blame him. But it's all about politics, not sticking your neck out for right.

The funny thing is that the things I always admired in the Clintons, their ability to somehow stay on top while one after one of their opponents had huge falls is probably the thing that is bugging me now. They are used to fighting hard and winning. However, what's acceptable when you fight those in an opposing party is not acceptable to me when fighting within your party. The Repulbicans can use her and her words in a campaign against Obama if he wins the nomination. I'm just going to vote for whoever is the nominee at the end of the day but she has so alientated my mother that she might not even fill out her ballot when the time comes if she were to win the nomination. That's a problem.

I'm not following this election closely. I'm sick of it already. It seemed like it started a year too early and I'm already burned out. I saw Obama early on in his campaign and wasn't blown away. I have no doubt he's gotten better since people seem to think he's a media darling and it's all about image over substance. The only way I can even get myself to have a little interest is that I care about who is on the Supreme Court - that's it and that's all. As for experience? Means nada to me. The lifetime politicians have screwed up this country enough.

I don't know if I'll ever pull myself out of this state. I'm glad to see young folks involved. I just hope they are still passionate at the next election and don't turn into a "me."

You are me, Couchie.

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But Obama was saying things like Hillary is "deeply flawed". So they both are guilty of that, unless Hillary was just supposed to disappear when Obama first declared he was running.

And please do not dismiss my feelings about Obama as just anger because he is running against Hillary. That is easy and cheap to do, please just don't do it. There is a reason almost half the voters picked Hillary and it is not anger. I do believe she would be the best president at this point in time.

I somehow missed it when Obama said McCain is more qualified than Hillary to run the country.

I would never dismiss anybody's feeling for any candidate...not yours for Hillary, and not someone voting for Obama or McCain. That is their right as a citizen of this country.

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Couchie, I did not mean you personally. In the same way that Heidi has expressed her dislike of being told she is a traitor to women or whatever, because she does not support Hillary, I have been told I was racist and I have been told I am only supporting Hillary because she is a woman. I honestly don't think there will be much of a "healing" process within the party, what is just politics to some has actually in some cases insulted me irrevocably. Obviously, I hope, not in this thread, I have lots of politically-minded friends and family.

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I get angry because I have a sense of what is right and wrong. What should of been a cake walk for Hillary to the white house was turned into this long fight by Howard Dean and the DNC. With their stupid rules. What gives these parties the right to tell states when they can have their primaries? The whole Democratic voting system is wacked. If Dean, Pelosi, Brazille, and the rest of the DNC had any decency they would step down from their positions. They know it and so does a lot of voters and Hillary supporters. Not just me. Obama never had to work to get this prmary nomination. It was given to him on a silver platter. It might be politics but it is not right.

I didn't mean to imply that you don't have a right to change your mind, or was calling you a traitor keepingfaith. I'm sorry if you took it that way. We are supposed to not take things personal in here. :F_05BL17blowkiss: I was seriously interested in who you were voting for. Because you talked about wanting Edwards to win, I knew you campaigned for Hillary, and then now you seem to be for Obama and angry at me for still being a Hillary supporter, and not seeing the light. Hillary has played it hard and rough because she has had to. IMHO She was screwed out of Florida and Michigan by Howard Dean. She has no one but her supporters on her side. The media and her party basically wrote her off from the get go. Along with CNN and that bastard MSNBC. They keep trying to pressure her to get out when she has every single right to stay in as long as she wants. The media, IMHO, is nothing but the "Good Old Boy" network keeping a woman out of the white house. She can't even get a break while nothing Obama does gets questioned for more than a few days. Heck he could go out and have sex with some PYT and they wouldn't even put one story about in the press. I never thought I would see the day that I would have to go to a Republican news show, Fox news, to get any fair and unbiased reporting on Hillary and some vetting of Barrack. That is where the Reverand Wright stories cropped up on. They have been reporting about that for the last year and the news media wouldn't post anything about it. Untill they were finally forced to. Anyway. I'm angry at the system not the voters. I think there is going to be a lot of buyers remorse come this time next year. Hopefully I'm wrong. I don't think I will vote at all this year. The most exciting election year of my life has also turned me off the most of any year of my life............I've never been so disgusted and embarrassed of the Democratic party as I have this year. I know many friends who are switching to Independants. Have a good evening all.............. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

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Well, I am kind of sorry that people don't want to talk generalities, but if we are going to talk specifics....

I am very disturbed about John McCain. Many people make backdeals and do what they have to to win, but he seems to have sold his soul. I was saddened when he made up with GBW and that Rove is running hthe election after he distributed the McCain has a black baby thing in 1999. That his wife was vilified and called a drug addict and alcoholic..

But worst for me and unforgivable was when he reversed his position on torture and supports it now. Torture used on him and his crew. Torture a violation of the Geneva convention that takes us out of the rightious seat when another country tries it on our soldiers.

I don't see how anyone can support Mccain. I had a friend who was so mad at Hillary for running (since when is that the crime it is being portrayed as?) tha she said if Obama didn't win she would vote for McCain. Aparently she did not know much about him.

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I don't think there's such a thing as a cakewalk in politics. It's the dirtiest business out there. The first step in showing you can run the country is proving you can run a campaign IMO. Gore may have "lost" Florida but if he had run a better campaign it would not have mattered. It's not like she was blindsided.

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I'm not getting this argument about popular vote at all. This isn't a popular vote contest. That's a strawman argument and it gets people riled up for no reason. The Republicans don't choose by popular vote. The Democrats don't choose by popular vote. The country doesn't choose by popular vote. I think it should, but that's not the law in case of national elections, nor is it the historical practice of party nominating processes. It's a non-issue that has been raised in an effort to influence the super-delegate votes. But that hasn't worked either. It's all talking points and propaganda and has nothing to do with the nominating process. There's no reason for this to be going on. If this were reversed, Obama would have dropped out a long time ago. But Hillary couldn't give up and all she had in her arsenal was to keep on going in hopes that something ugly would stick to Obama and then her campaign went out full force to make that happen. It's politics. The Clinton campaign was behind the Rev. Wright business. Hillary's been playing toe-sies with Fox lately, and Fox has been pro-Hillary. If the Republicans were holding the Rev. Wright information, why did they release it during primary season and not wait until October? It was only in Hillary's interest that it came out when it did. And the Republicans seem to be so apprehensive about Hillary not being the nominee. Ultimately, it's good that Obama could deal with this guilt by association early and move on. It's so silly. Everyday I read about another pastor or priest arrested for molesting children, or doing kinky stuff with prostitutes of both sexes. Do people really let their pastor make decisions in their lives? Are people across this country turning their minds over to pastors? We had a preacher for a time when I was a kid who left the church because he was accused of hitting on a young widow who sang in the choir. He went on to getting a woman pregnant at his next church. His wife divorced him and I think he was last seen driving a truck. So much for pastors. But I personally do not doubt that it was someone associated with the Clintons who kept the Wright story afloat, and probably leaked it to Sean Hannity in the first place. It's something Karl would do. And it was a Hillary Clinton insider who invited Rev. Wright to speak at the National Press Club. It's politics. She tried. It didn't work and it's over now. That's part of politics, too. The Clintons are not accustomed to losing and this hasn't been a graceful exit. And I was negatively impressed when Hillary went on O'Reilly's show and got the kid glove treatment.

Interesting Couchie, hearing Obama early on didn't fire you up. He didn't fire me up either. But he is the candidate least beholden to Washington power lobbyists. Hillary's campaign had a Mark Penn problem, but nothing to even compare with the McCain campaign.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5788685.html

And McCain's adviser/lobbyists aren't just your regular run of the mill lobbyists either. Noooooo. We're talking registered agents of foreign governments and totalitarian regimes: Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, a Somali warlord ... it goes on and it's not pretty. And these guys are being purged from the campaign because the press was investigating, and it wouldn't look good for these guys to be, oh .... Finance Co-Chairman of the campaign what with John McCain being the former posterboy for lobby reform. I've embraced support for Obama around the fact that he isn't part of the entrenched power structure. Look where experience got us with Dick Cheney -- tauted as the most experienced man in Washington.

Disappointment. It's always the same after every election ... and so often it's the winner's fans who are ultimately the most disappointed, unless they're lobotomized. Expectations run sky high, but regardless of who wins, the power doesn't move. I think the "power" is under attack from within for the first time in a long time and it's a golden opportunity for a non-aligned outsider to move the cheese. It doesn't hurt that the population is energized for change. Maybe it's nothing more than slim hope at this point, an outside chance. But it's the best chance we've had in 45 years to clean up the overt corruption that has become so bad it's starting to sicken even the corrupt themselves.

Bill Clinton still blows my mind. Before the Texas primary, I watched Bill Clinton doing a townhall at A&M and I was mesmerized listening to him elevate mundane policy matters into the most interesting amd entertaining discussion of the intricacies of decision making that I have ever heard. He's simply amazing. I couldn't tear myself away. Obama has to make use of Bill Clinton's special genius. He's an intellectual gift.

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