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djs111
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I didn't know Teddy was canonized. To me he has always been a joke, someone had to tred carefully cuz things were always thrown in his face. Yes, always esconced in his senate seat but with no chance of anything more. He only began to come out of it when JFKjr was killed in the plane crash and he sorta took charge of the family. That's the view from someone who doesn't pay attention to most of this stuff.

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Kennedy tried to do a lot of good things in the latter years of his life. He was a diligent fighter for the underdog. He made mistakes - no child left behind, but as much as his womanizing reputation damaged him, he supported woman's rights. He is a real life example of the contradictions taht can live within a person.

At some point in my life, I had to decide to support people for what they can do for me and screw their morals that did not affect me. I do believe in justice, Ido believe in stupidity. I think Kennedy served well, but should not have gotten off so easy, but then again, I have an ongoing grudge with Bush and the antional guard suervice since I had friends die in Vietnam.

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Not really a fan of Teddy, but if one checks his record on the senate, he has been one of the most hard working senators in history putting in long hours when important issues are at stake. Once when I was in DC, we went into the senate chamber late at night, house had already convened, and a debate was going on about affirmative action. The mayor of San Diego was testifying against "quotas," and Teddy was debating him. There were only about four senators still there and Teddy was one of them.

Being a liberal Democrat and desperately wanting Hillary to be the first woman president, I do not really know how I will vote if she is not the Democratic nominee. I do not know much about Obama except that he is handsome, intelligent and articulate. As far as his background in politics, there is not much there for me to make an intelligent decision.

McCain on the other hand is very liberal. The Republicans viewed him as a "loose cannon" until voters made him the front runner. They know that the party cannot control him. His record reflects that he supports women's issues. I definitely do not like his stance on the war, but I wonder if that is just what he is saying to get the conservative vote? McCain with a Democratic Congress would definitely be interesting. He is the most liberal of the three front runners with Obama being second and Hillary being the most conservative. Of course the issue of what he would do with the economy and also his age and health remain. What if his VP had to take over? I would love McCain and Hillary on a ticket. Of course, that is a stretch and is not going to happen.

I am still hoping that Hillary takes it all the way to the convention and someway convinces them that she is the one to beat McCain. The only thing that I really have against Obama is that he is raining on my parade! I have always voted Democrat with one exception when I voted for John Anderson, running as an independent, because he best represented my issues. I was a raving feminist at the time. It will be very hard for me to vote Republican. I just have to wait and see how everything plays out. Sometimes I feel that the Republicans made this mess, and they should be the ones to fix it, war included.

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My opinion is that the Republicans AND Democrats made this mess. Nobody told them to meekly follow along and they only did it because they were gutless. This is the once in power, only job is to stay in power part of politics that makes me very apathetic today. I watched Bush's war last night ..all 4 1/2 hours and I walked away disgusted. How so few people have the power of life and death over innocent Americans and Iraqis is beyond me.

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My hope is that Clinton takes her fight to the convention in August after Saturday's disgraceful R&B committee proceeding. For this party to allocate delegates based on exit polling data is undemocratic and defies its constitution.

Once again this election cycle, the Democratic party will put forth an elite, out of touch, left wing extreme ideologue who will be defined by the GOP as a radical against a national narrative of national security and trust in which the Reagan Democratics will flock to McCain, the flag bearing POW. Gotta love the Democratic party which I have supported my entire adult life....Good luck in November...

Axelrod is slick by implemeting a vile strategy of race-baiting in an effort to purge the Clintons and their constituency from the party. Good luck in November...

:F_05BL17blowkiss: Hi stranger.............The Democrats are going to need a lot of luck in November. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

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Add my smooches to lightmyfire - a candidate who right now only has at MOST a 0.8% lead in popular votes is not a winning candidate. Especially if, as I understand it, he outspent Hillary by quite a lot. Yeah, yeah, I know about the delegate counts - but they are not going to be any help in November when they only get one vote like the rest of us.

I would actually feel better if Obama was trouncing Hillary in the popular vote, even in the last couple of weeks, but no, an awful lot of people still prefer Hillary.

Heh, guess I am A Caring Democrat now instead of a stupid old lady (those people can all go fuck themselves) - nothing will make a difference to me now. Ship sailed.

My feeling is we will get to see even more clearly that a Democratic Congress is a bunch of spineless wimps, and maybe that this two-party thing is just a diversion.

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KAndre looks around with mild interest...

Not quite as passionate about politics as I was during the Watergate years - but a cynical bitch from waaaaaaaaaaay back.

I tend to vote Democratic - mainly because the Republicans run such total and complete assholes down here. But have voted for people who catch my interest (for a while, I would vote for anyone who wasn't a lawyer). Have voted for Ross Perot, would have liked to have voted for Kinky Friedman, voted for a couple of Libertatrians and even a communist once.

For the Presidential election this year, I'm doing the "yellow-dog Democrat" thing (waves at kf) once McCain sewed up the Republican nomination because he crossed a line on torture I can't deal with. I see Obama and Hillary as six of one and half a dozen of another - as far as I'm concerned you might as well call them the Bobbsey twins (though as a former public health student, I much prefer her health plan). It will be interesting to see if Obama puts her on the tickets - he's got to do something to bring all the Hillary who feel dissed back in the fold.

As for the misogny in this campaign, you're lucky if you haven't seen it - but it's there and fairly widespread; just like the racism in this same campaign. I've been lucky to have exposed to both.

Though in general, I have been thrilledwith the Democratic campaign for no other reason that primary voters beyond Super Tuesday still counted; that media would make numerous proclamation and then be forced to swallow them like the bitter pills they were; pictures of Obama in front of huge rallies in the Midwest; idiots I personally know who declared basically, "well, ya know since Hillary has ovaries, she's weak, she's gonna quit"...

I have seen serious progress in the last 40 years (hell, from Nixon to Obama/Hillary/McCain? Who woulda thunk it?) - but the more I read on history, the more I see a lot of basic humanity hasn't changed - those who have power wanna keep it, people like to win at all costs, and people take a lot of shit personally.

Hell, I even got a campaign brochure for Lyndon LaRouche yesterday (who I thought was dead - apparently not).

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I don't know if landslides are common, but a margin of less than one percent seems telling, especially since it is staying that way down to the wire, even after the media announces Hillary is through, once a day, for months. And since such large numbers of people are turning out to vote.

I am not saying Hillary can win by herself, don't mistake my posts for campaigning. I am just saying the divide is pretty deep and pretty heart-felt. I have had some amazingly nasty things said to me by people I thought I knew. My inclination is to not throw in with them, especially since I would not be the least bit enthusiastic and would be filled with misgivings. I figure, hey! all those people who asked for money so we could have a Democratic Congress and kick ass? let's see the results! Hasn't happened yet!

I just think Hillary would make a good president, and I do not feel that way about Obama. And god knows I have been inundated with facts and figures. I think both candidates have, at this point, not a hope of uniting their own party.

Also I think if Hillary dropped her church of 20 years she would be called a calculating bitch who did it for political reasons. That is the bias I see. But it doesn't matter now. I am not really angry and all that, I just feel completely disengaged - but that's okay, I am just an old lady! :-)

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Well, it’s been over since he won the most states, the most delegates AND the popular vote – if you actually COUNT all the votes in ALL the states, that is, and not give Hillary ALL of Michigan and Obama nothing from MI.

As for the media – they have been giving Hillary and McCain a free pass for months. I can give you a list of things they passed on for both, if you like. <g> As for “stuff that can come out” – have you paid attention to Hillary’s, and more notably Bill’s closet…like where they got that 109 Million dollars?? Yeah, she ain’t clean. If I were Obama I would vet the hell out of her before putting her on the ticket. The finances could really trip both of them up.

The Clintons have been vetted, investigated, scrutinized, pummelled, disgraced, turned upside down, sideways, inside out, recently accused of being racists. hated by the press. for the past upteen years. There'e nothing left in their closet, not even a piece of fucking lint. Have you been living under a rocK? :cryingwlaughter:

Please enlighten me and the rest of us Hillary supporters how they got their $109 million dollars. I'd like to hear it. I would venture to say it was from book sales, speeches, investments, and salaries, etc. But I'm sure that you know of some dishonest ways that I am unaware of. Please share all of the stuff that the media has given her passes on too, while you're at it. Because I totaly disagree with you on that.

Independent? McCain wins, because the dems are split and Hillary brings out rethugs. McCain may win with her as veep to Obama. As for the above commentary – it’s not bragging, it’s a fact. Sadly, McCain may win either way, because I think there are a lot of people in this country who still won’t vote for a black man. I’m not going to vote for someone I despise (HRC) just because it’s *possible* that the person I actually believe is better for the job might not win. If he doesn’t win, I will NEVER be sorry I voted for him, because I voted my conscience and in who I believed. I have to admit I can't fathom anyone who supports Hillary actually going to McCain (I tend to think it's sour grapes, for now) - talk about polar opposites. I don't like the woman, but she is light years ahead of McCain, who doesn't know the difference between Shia and Sunni and sings about bombing Iran like it's a fucking joke. Among other things.

Well Obama could be purple for all I care. Race is not the issue for me. I know and understand that African American people are proud of having a candidate to rally behind and be proud of. I think it's a great historical event. I would vote for a black candidate if I liked, trusted, and thought the person had the right experience or qualifications. Someone like Colin Powell for instance, and he is even a Republican of which I vowed never to vote for again. :cryingwlaughter: Someone with only 2 years as a Senator deserved more scrutiny and background checking than Obama has received. He has not earned the nominee position in my opinion. It was handed to him on a silver platter. I think it is unfair to suggest that Hillary supporters would not support a black candidate. I don't trust Obama, nor do I like the attitude of his wife. He is an elitist and too far in dreamland. He is not even in touch with the real kitchen issues of the working class people and the women in this country who make up the majority of voters. I don't like the radical people they seem to surround themselves with in their lives. She thinks the world owes her something. Nobody knows the real Obama in my opinion. I wouldn't vote for Obama simply to get a Democrat elected to office either. Just as I will not vote for McCain. I will stay home from this election if Hillary is not on the ticket. Plain and simple. I don't have to vote for someone I don't like either. You can call it sour grapes or what ever you choose. We will just agree to disagree........... :F_05BL17blowkiss:

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I have seen serious progress in the last 40 years (hell, from Nixon to Obama/Hillary/McCain? Who woulda thunk it?) - but the more I read on history, the more I see a lot of basic humanity hasn't changed - those who have power wanna keep it, people like to win at all costs, and people take a lot of shit personally.

Although this may sound a little contradictory because of some comments about progress in another thread, the sad truth is that the only thing we seem to learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

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ahhhhh Colin Powell...

unfortunately I don't have much respect for him after his part in the whole going to war thingie. What a patsy he was.

Well, I was a huge fan of Hillary, I always felt that she and Bill were a dynamic team, Hillary wasn't just a First Lady, she was way more than that and I believed she would one day be the first woman President. However, when I heard that she gave the "thumbs up" for the war on Iraq, I was shocked, disappointed and devastated in a way I had never felt towards a politician. I felt 'sold out'. I realize I can't possibly know much about the politics in the USA but I try to keep informed because what happens in the USA affects my country hugely. I've never forgotten Vietnam, and I will never forget Iraq.

However, politicians make mistakes, and we have to live with that.

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However, when I heard that she gave the "thumbs up" for the war on Iraq,

She gave thumbs up to investigating going to war if certain conditions were met - and Bush just went ahead and declared war. Colin Powell presented the faked evidence to Congress.

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oh I agree claytonic... I will always vote in presidential elections because first and foremost I care about the supreme court.

Bill Clinton disappointed like no one ever could..cuz he was the one I most respected. And even after everything, I still love that man. And if I could vote for him again in November, I would.

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Wow I sure missed a lot by not reading this thread the last few weeks.

In my opinion the Democratic Party created a big mess this year that could ruin the chances of a Democratic nominee winning. I did a lot of work in NC for Hillary. I worked with teenagers, college students, men and women, black and white, old and young. I made one really good friend and met many wonderful people who I hope to work with again.

I knew it was an uphill fight in NC, but everyone gave 100% or more for what they believed. I felt that I would vote for Obama if Hillary lost, until I visited with the sister in law from Hell last week at their farm in PA. They have three houses in MD, PA and NY, but vote in MD. She spent four days trying to browbeat me into believing that Obama was the only perfect candidate and I would go to Hell if I didn't support him, Well maybe not that but pretty darn close. She kept insisting that all Hillary supporters were uneducated, white and racist. We were not speaking last I heard. Not that that bothers me. :cryingwlaughter:

I just hope I can forget this before November. Amazing how one person can hurt a candidate. I'm thinking she is the reason Hillary won by so much in PA. LOL

I sure don't want to see McCain win so I'm hoping that Obama offers her a meaningful position and I don't think V-P is it. Well I might be old and a women but my husband voted for Hillary and last I heard he was male.

I've read so many inaccuracies in the press that I don't believe anything anymore. This morning I got home from the gym at 11 and my husband said that Hillary had conceeded. He said it was an AP report. I couldn't find it anywhere and then he showed me where he had seen it at Yahoo. Well before you could say refresh it disappeared. Since this was when the polls were just opening in SD and Montana, I thought they would apologize, but no. They just replaced it with a poorly done cut and paste article saying that Hillary wants to be VP, from another anonymous source. We tried to get hold of someone at AP but were told that we could not speak to anyone. I think I've convinced my husband not to trust the news.

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I've really enjoyed reading these posts and have learned quite a bit. I'm kind of like kf, although I was never an Edwards fan. He just didn't seem real to me. I was initially a big Hillary supporter and I still believe she has the most experience and I liked that she gave more details about her plans in her debates than any of the other candidates. I do think though that she is partially accountable for probably losing the nomination. It was hers to lose because in the beginning, she was the one everyone expected to win. However, she did not lose it solely on bad decisions but the media did do a number on her, and I do agree that she had it worse than any of the other candidates. That's what the media does, the higher someone is, the more they want to bring them down.

I came to be more comfortable with the idea of Obama being the nominee after seeing him on The View, and also on how he handled the situation with his pastor and how he handled it when the media tried to get him to blast McCain for something he had said. Basically saying that everyone will make comments that just plain stupid, although he did it more tactfully than that. Don't know how his lack of experience will affect him, could be like Carter who totally blew it, or he could be like Clinton. He was young when he was elected, may have had more experience, but he did a great job, in spite of making some really stupid personal mistakes. And I love listening to him speak, moreso than Hillary, because he definitely has charm and he is really intelligent. However I could not read his book, although I really liked hers, because he could spend a chapter on one meeting, telling about the decorations in the room, every statement, etc. Way too much info.

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Well I spent the evening watching speeches and the news. First time I've listened to any of them in a long time.

My favorite moment of the night though was Donna Brazille telling Anderson Cooper he wasn't her Boo. I almost choked on my dinner. I was like..did she say Boo? I'm still not sure that's what she said but that's what I heard.

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Well I spent the evening watching speeches and the news. First time I've listened to any of them in a long time.

My favorite moment of the night though was Donna Brazille telling Anderson Cooper he wasn't her Boo. I almost choked on my dinner. I was like..did she say Boo? I'm still not sure that's what she said but that's what I heard.

That's what she said alright. :cryingwlaughter:

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Well I spent the evening watching speeches and the news. First time I've listened to any of them in a long time.

My favorite moment of the night though was Donna Brazille telling Anderson Cooper he wasn't her Boo. I almost choked on my dinner. I was like..did she say Boo? I'm still not sure that's what she said but that's what I heard.

That's what she said alright. :cryingwlaughter:

It really was a rare, to me, very funny, warm,humane moment. I just cracked up and the entire group was thrown off just enough to make me laugh, and sit there for another hour. heee.

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Well Obama could be purple for all I care. Race is not the issue for me. I know and understand that African American people are proud of having a candidate to rally behind and be proud of. I think it's a great historical event. I would vote for a black candidate if I liked, trusted, and thought the person had the right experience or qualifications. Someone like Colin Powell for instance, and he is even a Republican of which I vowed never to vote for again. :cryingwlaughter: Someone with only 2 years as a Senator deserved more scrutiny and background checking than Obama has received. He has not earned the nominee position in my opinion. It was handed to him on a silver platter. I think it is unfair to suggest that Hillary supporters would not support a black candidate. I don't trust Obama, nor do I like the attitude of his wife. He is an elitist and too far in dreamland. He is not even in touch with the real kitchen issues of the working class people and the women in this country who make up the majority of voters. I don't like the radical people they seem to surround themselves with in their lives. She thinks the world owes her something. Nobody knows the real Obama in my opinion. I wouldn't vote for Obama simply to get a Democratic elected to office either. Just as I will not vote for McCain. I will stay home from this election if Hillary is not on the ticket. Plain and simple. I don't have to vote for someone I don't like either. You can call it sour grapes or what ever you choose. We will just agree to disagree........... :F_05BL17blowkiss:

I usually don't talk politics on the boards but I totally agree with Clayzor. I don't trust Obama and I can't stand his wife. I waited along time for Hillary to run and it seems like out of nowhere Obama pops up and no one question anything about him.

I have always voted but I won't vote for Obama so I hope McCain picks a good running mate since I would hate to do nothing. I am not sure I would vote for Obama even if Hillary was on the ticket since I want him to lose so she can run again in four years.

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Personally, I would rather vote for my dog than see another Republican in office. And I really don't understand the Obama hate. He wasn't my original pick, but I have seen nothing about him that makes me feel like he is the devil incarnate. Unlike Bush, where I could have swore I saw horns on more than one occasion. Never saw his appeal.

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Personally, I would rather vote for my dog than see another Republican in office. And I really don't understand the Obama hate. He wasn't my original pick, but I have seen nothing about him that makes me feel like he is the devil incarnate. Unlike Bush, where I could have swore I saw horns on more than one occasion. Never saw his appeal.

I've been puzzled about the Obama hate too. I'd never heard of him until recently and originally I would have voted for Hillary (if I was in a position to vote) simply because of her enormous experience and intelligence. But when Oprah endorsed Obama, I kinda took notice. Yeah, it's sad I know but when Oprah speaks I listen. Well, I can't vote even if I wanted to, but I hope Obama wins the Presidency because I can't feel good about another Republican in the most powerful job in the world.

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Everybody processes things diffferently because of their own experiences and filters and whatever.

Just the sight of a Bush creeps me out - long before the current administration. Barbara and all the guys - an ugly entitled arrogance.

Got an extra dose, havng jeb for gov.

My dislike of Oprah started when she was just starting out in Chicago. I have seen or heard nothing to change that.

However, I have noticed that if I express dislike for Oprah or Obama (who I first saw in 2006, has not a damn thing to do with Hillary), I usually get whacked with the racism stick or the just-jellus-of-rich-people stick, like they are not real people or something, but it doesn't matter, really, in the long run, I feel how I feel, and act accordingly.

One of the things that sickened me about this primary is that for years and years, people were contrasting the Clinton years with the Bush years, and saying how much better things were. But for election purposes, Hillary became the devil and was slandered and hated. IMO the health plan she valiantly tried to get enacted, the health plan that told the insurance companies all to fuck off, was defeated by the lobbyists and special interests that she is accused of pandering to. All of a sudden it was No More Clintons. She was deemed a failure for not getting the health plan done, and in bed with special interests that killed it, at the same time.

So for me, screw the whole thing. I feel that those who like Obama can vote for him, and those who like McCain can vote for him. I don't know anything novel about Obama except he is going to "change" things, and his plans seemed the same as Hillary's, I think intentionally. He is a politician through and through, and it is ridiculous to think he is some kind of breath of fresh air, he has been running for president for a long time.

If Edwards had ended up where Hillary was, I would have supported him because I liked his health plan better (bearing in mind that I don't think for one second that anything is really going to happen). I do not dislike Obama because I like Hillary, but that is the cheap easy thing to fling for a lot of people. and again, it doesn't matter. I liked Kucinich, too.

So, that is just my opinion, I am not stoopid or uneducated or racist (I actually think it racist to dismiss my views by calling me racist, on a couple of levels) - but there is one explanation for ya. No one really cares why I don't like Obama, because he is black and I am not. We both have been rendered one-dimensional.

I find it ridiculous that a candidate who was only bested by .1 percent of the votes was labelled a loser. And she had been closing that gap late in the primaries. The whole primary was a joke anyway, between having delegates, super delegates, and elections on dates all over the place. And if Obama couldn't get more of a lead than one tenth of one percent over Hillary, despite outspending her and having more favorable media, than hopefully the DNC will take that into consideration somehow.

I wouldn't let Oprah pick out a book for me, much less a president. I wouldn't let Barbara Walters or Ellen or Larry King or any other talking head talk show hostess or host do that either, regardless of gender or race. They are entertainers, is all they are. They use other people's lives in order to sell stuff. Shrug. Nothing ennobling about that. Doesn't confer wisdom or superiority. Heh, I saw Maya Angelou's endorsement of Hillary explained away as she only did it because Bill asked her to speak at his inauguration. WTF?

No need for rebuttals or whatever, I am just explaining how I feel. I don't care any more. And it has been years since I could be guilted into anything. Besides, according to the media and to lots of Obama supporters, I am just an old woman who doesn't count anyway, so I will just sit back and not be counted. You win! I have been informed in several places that all the really smart and creative people and all the young people will vote for Obama, so it's all good! I am assuming those people just never bothered to vote before because they didn't care, being so smart and committed and all. :-) This not a diatribe, really! Just a calm recounting of my feelings.

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dis111,

You make a lot of good points. I agree with most of what you say because that is exactly the way I feel. I do not dislike Obama, and I do not dislike Oprah. I do however feel that it was when Oprah got into the Obama campaign that Obama's candidacy really took off. I cannot believe that the Oprah factor would cause some people to forget that Hillary has always been a champion of the middle and lower income Americans. What has Obama done in his two years as senator? His voting record in the senate reflects a large number of "present" votes when controversial issue are voted on. That to me indicates an unwillingness to take a stand on important matters. Hopefully he will appoint good advisers because he will be needing them.

I did try to read the books on Oprah's Book Club and did not like most of them. After, her campaigning for Obama, I have lost a lot of respect for her. I used to consider her a very wise woman. I am going to vote in the General Election because not voting is actually voting. At this time I do not know which way, I will go. Selection of VP is going to be very important for me in both parties. McCain is already making speeches about his service to our country. No one can argue that he has not paid his dues. Can Obama counter that? It is going to be so easy for the Republicans to compare and contrast the two candidates. I live in a Republican area, and most of my friends are Republican. They voted and attended caucuses for Obama. They tried to convince me to vote for Obama. They will be voting Republican in November. I am afraid that we Democrats might have blown our chance to win the White House.

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