# 10 It isn't so easy to get your knickers off when they're in a knot.

[Claygasm]

Carrie could outlast them both but if she does she will sound the same on album #500 and she did on album #1. Country is country and I don't think she is capable of much more. (Not that there is anything wrong with country)

I personally think Kelly could have a career a lot like Linda Ronstadt. Like Linda, Kelly has a gorgeous voice and is capable of singing just about any style of music. That was clear on AI1. The song she sang during IGB was very bluesy and it was fabulous. If she grows as an artist - and she has plenty of time to do that - and as she grows tries different styles of music, as Linda Ronstadt did, then she could have that kind of long career.

I think she can and she will.

And all of that applies to Clay too. And I think Clay can and will too.

JMO and all that.

[Ansamcw]

Do I remember correctly, that the guy who headed up the Firm had a drug controversy surrounding him? Cocaine? Something about him not taking things seriously? Or am I tired from laundry and having a brain fart? I have those a lot you know....

Breakaway, sold 6 million copies in the U.S. and 10 million worldwide.

Question. Did breakaway sell a total of 16 million or a total of 10 million? With 6 being in US and 4 being overseas?

Not a fan of Kelly's really. I always thought Clay would have longer longevity but I could be wrong. Carrie Underwood could outlast them both. LOL Don't hit me............

Not really going to argue with you about Carrie. Country artist seem to have a more stable career.

yeah I do believe that is 10M in total, but of course I could be wrong...hee

don;t know about any drugs with the guy either...not very helpful am I.

Claygasm...I am all for the artist following their heart but there are times when they are really not ready. I do think she should've listened to Clive and gotten some pro help with these songs. Some of them could be much better with a bit of tweaking. The melodies are just usually so boring, and the words a bit disjointed. What I am wondering about is whether Kelly was really that determined to go at it on her own or was she pushed by her manager to do that. I just think Kelly is more easy going than they are trying to portray and I do think she probably would've agreed to more compromise with the label.

[Clayzorback]

I wasn't trying to put her down or wanting her to fail. I just don't care for her singing style. Now if she changes up her genre a little and does some of what you're talking about, instead of all that melisima? stuff, then I might like her voice better.

I think Clay will be around a long time too. Long after I'm gone.......Hee

Edited June 12, 2007 by Clayzorback

[playbiller]

I don't hate Kelly, but I think if she tours on this album, she has a good chance of damaging her vocal chords. She seems more fragile than some and gets sick a lot on tours. (damn meet and greets and hugging fans who think it is OK to come to them when they are sick).

The Kelly hate is a lot like the Ruben hate and the Chris hate - fan wars, the source of much, but not all, AI anger.

[Claygasm]

Claygasm...I am all for the artist following their heart but there are times when they are really not ready. I do think she should've listened to Clive and gotten some pro help with these songs. Some of them could be much better with a bit of tweaking. The melodies are just usually so boring, and the words a bit disjointed. What I am wondering about is whether Kelly was really that determined to go at it on her own or was she pushed by her manager to do that. I just think Kelly is more easy going than they are trying to portray and I do think she probably would've agreed to more compromise with the label.

Yeah, I'm wondering about that too. Maybe he thought her unwillingness to compromise would better fit her rocker chick image? I also think it was her manager's decision as to what venues to choose for her concerts. Arenas? No way. No matter how good this album was! The place she is playing in Philly - if they actually sell the whole venue and they don't always - seats like 30,000! Its where people like Elton John and the Rolling Stones play! She could have played the smaller arena where she and Clay were on the IT and still would have had a tough time selling it out and it seats like 10,000!

If choosing those type of venues was his idea, he deserves to be fired.

Regardless, much to the chagrin of the Kelly haters in this fandom, I have no doubt this album will NOT be a death knell to her career anymore than I believe ATDW was a death knell for Clay.

[Ansamcw]

Carrie could outlast them both but if she does she will sound the same on album #500 and she did on album #1. Country is country and I don't think she is capable of much more. (Not that there is anything wrong with country)

I personally think Kelly could have a career a lot like Linda Ronstadt. Like Linda, Kelly has a gorgeous voice and is capable of singing just about any style of music. That was clear on AI1. The song she sang during IGB was very bluesy and it was fabulous. If she grows as an artist - and she has plenty of time to do that - and as she grows tries different styles of music, as Linda Ronstadt did, then she could have that kind of long career.

I think she can and she will.

And all of that applies to Clay too. And I think Clay can and will too.

JMO and all that.

Not quite sure about Carrie. I did hear an acoustic version of her singing alone..it was fantastic. Not country sounding at all. She has a very wide appeal...strong cross over artist.

I agree about Kelly and Linda. I do think she can do all kinds of genre. I just wish she would take care of her chords more. But wouldn;t it be funny if Kelly ends up in country and Carrie does pop/rock???

I do think the three AI alums that would have the longest careers are Clay, Kelly and Carrie.

[lightmyfire]

I believe Kwatinetz fed falsehoods to certain media outlets.

And I agree with Claygasm in respect to the venues/arenas disaster.

Edited June 12, 2007 by lightmyfire

[bottlecap]

I can't say I'm terribly surprised by this development - when you loudly, publicly, and consistently f*ck with Clive, there are going to be professional repercussions. I don't know if the Kelly vs. Clive narrative was designed to give her "Street Creed" or what exactly, but not to expect Clive to respond in someway? Seems more than a little clueless to me.

I hope all the pundits who claim that Clay could have and should have stood up to Clive over the covers thing are paying attention.

[jamar1700]

Ah yes. There are fans just salivating at the thought that Kelly might fail, yet they're torn because that would mean Clive was right and they want him to fail too.

What to do. What to do.

Hee. It should be interesting that's for sure!

Re: Carrie/Country Music. Carrie is the "new" Faith. Faith was the "new" Tammy. IMO she'll be around for awhile.

Edited June 13, 2007 by jamar1700

[cindilu2]

I can't say I'm terribly surprised by this development - when you loudly, publicly, and consistently f*ck with Clive, there are going to be professional repercussions. I don't know if the Kelly vs. Clive narrative was designed to give her "Street Creed" or what exactly, but not to expect Clive to respond in someway? Seems more than a little clueless to me.

I hope all the pundits who claim that Clay could have and should have stood up to Clive over the covers thing are paying attention.

I don't know - maybe I'm just jaded (or jealous ) but every time I read any of this 'controversy' over Kelly's album and her fight with the label, it just feels set-up. I can't even give a specific reason why, but it does. Then today, after her all her assertions about how this album came to be, and is so personal, etc - she says she's never been in love? Maybe I'm missing something. Or maybe I'm being manipulated?

Edited June 13, 2007 by cindilu2

[JennaZ]

I've always had the impression that Kelly wanted to be more of a rocker than a pop singer. She seems prepared to accept the consequences of a less commercial direction, but I can see why her label might be less thrilled. If "Never Again" is representative of the album as a whole, their concern doesn't surprise me. I think Kelly has the voice to have a long career if she makes the right choices. However, whether rock is it remains to be seen, IMHO.

Carrie also has a decent voice and a much improved stage presence. I've met her in a professional context, and I found her surprisingly down-to-earth and quite genuine. However, I think she is another whose success will depend on good material, which she had on her first album. She's a pretty girl who can sing, but those types of girls come up frequently in country. I like Carrie as a person, but as a performer, I don't think she's exceptionally unique. I'd wait to see her next album before laying bets on her longevity.

But what I say of both of them is true of most artists. I don't think either is guaranteed a long career. I'm not sure Clay is, either. They all certainly have talent, but often, that's not quite enough.

Cindilu, maybe Kelly's fight-with-the-label story is true, but over-emphasized and over-publicized. It could be that her management thought it was a way to enhance her credibility as an artist and make the album seem more sincere. However, it may not be a good fit with her established image.

[Ansamcw]

I can't say I'm terribly surprised by this development - when you loudly, publicly, and consistently f*ck with Clive, there are going to be professional repercussions. I don't know if the Kelly vs. Clive narrative was designed to give her "Street Creed" or what exactly, but not to expect Clive to respond in someway? Seems more than a little clueless to me.

I hope all the pundits who claim that Clay could have and should have stood up to Clive over the covers thing are paying attention.

I don't know - maybe I'm just jaded (or jealous ) but every time I read any of this 'controversy' over Kelly's album and her fight with the label, it just feels set-up. I can't even give a specific reason why, but it does. Then today, after her all her assertions about how this album came to be, and is so personal, etc - she says she's never been in love? Maybe I'm missing something. Or maybe I'm being manipulated?

Thats why I don;t think its a set up at all...because so many wrong things have happened here. This Album should;ve been out earlier to give the CD a chance to sell tour tickets. BUT RCA held it back. That is not good for Kelly's sale. I think NA could've done better on radio with real payola muscle behind it...but it didn't. Kelly has enough critical success that she didn;t really need to get anymore cred. If Clive came out all excited about this CD and everyone just talked about what a great song writer she is...it would be a better marketing. Now I get the feeling that the media is just getting ready to put this CD down. Objectively speaking, its not very good...so I don;t think she is goign to get the critical acclaim she sacrificed commercialism for.

If the direction of this CD is The Firm's idea...they deserve to be fired.

ITA about the tour...her last tour did well after several number one hits. But now the tour is coming after a downtime and with no hit driving its sale...I am not very optimistic about it. Now with this very public fight with RCA and now her manager...the media will sure be looking closely at her sales, both cds and tickets.

[muskifest]

Kelly? Clive? Jeff? SAM?

huh?

Whatevah....what cracks me up sorta is reading that Never Again hasn't gotten radio support. Good GOD! That screeching and yelling is everywhere...drives me nuts.

And I actually LIKE a lot of Kelly's songs...

I just lost an hour of my life reading through a thread elsewhere about all the OFC crappola. Lord. We are a fandom of the ages, ain't we?

Anyhoo....funny you should mention Linda Ronstadt, GG. I've always loved her and remember how I first felt when she put out that crooner album with Nelson Riddle. I thought she was going to KILL her career! It was so different! Then she sang on Broadway in the Pirates of Penzance (sp?) and I couldn't BELIEVE she'd go an operatic route (She was amazing---what a vocal range!). Then she did smokey blues "Round Midnight" album and I thought "OMG, she's a goner."...Then she did two albums in SPANISH, for crying out loud---a kind of mariachi music in honor of her father's Mexican heritage. Then she did an album with Dolly Parton and Emmilou Harris and I thought, "Shit! She's going country!"...then...

Well, you get my drift. She's such a stud!

This is what I see for Clay---he's so freakin' talented and he's his own person (like Linda--God, the mean things that have been said about her! Slams about her weight, about her 'pop' generic sound, AND about the fact that she doesn't write her own songs, e tc.), so I could very easily see him following his personal preferences in music, tweaking it now and then here and there, venturing and exploring and taking risks...

But ultimately, he can sing like nobody else on the planet (tm Shelley) and people who love what that voice can do to them will always want to hear him sing ---whether he's scatting or rockin' or croonin' or warbling' or glory noting to the nth degree.

The man has a gift and he LOVES to use it...he loves to sing. That's the basic truth I'm counting on to selfishly keep him in my life until I'm gone...and then some (that's me trying not to be selfish...heh)

Edited June 13, 2007 by muskifest

[keepingfaith]

I've never understood where the anti-Kelly, anti-Ruben stuff comes from since they are obviously Clay's good buddies. Jealousy? I don't understand that either. Kelly can sing her ass off and in a number of genres, but she doesn't threaten Clay. The first time I ever saw Kelly, someone told me to watch because she sang Aretha, e.g., Respect and Natural Woman, but what I saw was Kelly singing Bette Midler's Stuff Like That There. She can explore and go in a lot of directions. If she wants to rock, this is the time to do it. And Ruben, I think he's such a sweetie, and while I've never been a fan of the raspy Ruben voice, I think he must be a wonderful person.

I'm not crazy of what I've heard of Kelly's new album, although I've heard others say they love it. To each his own. And it took me days to get the vision of Ruben singing Lucy In The Sky out of my head -- but he did a good job on the duet with Jordin. I have nothing but the best wishes for Kelly, Ruben, and Kimberley Locke, too. Trying to tear any of them down in an attempt to "help" Clay -- what's that all about???? Clay's the Magic Man ... and I don't see that he has any competition at all.

[playbiller]

I find Carrie amazingly tactful and gracious (easy to see when comparing her to Kat). I am probably alone in not liking her songs (no, no don't let go of that wheel, ignore that song, I want to live! eeeeeee!)

I think the most interesting thing about Kelly's sales is the price she is charging for far away seats in the arenas - not many people want to pay over 100 dollars to sit in the back tier of an arena. I may be what she is charging, but I have never found her sets interesting - some video screens and cloth and rugs. And I ws never thrilled with Kelly's choreography or patter. I am not quite sure what she spends her money on. People are there for her voice and many will be far from that this time. Maybe she is going to have some pyrotechnics this time. I wish her luck. It looks like the worst sales are in the first arena. I think I am turned off by the fact taht she almost gave me a heart attack in the two IT shows I attended. I really should have leftduring her show the second time. I was trembling by the end of her act and it was not from pleasure, I thought my cheart would burst out of my chest, my ribs were in such pain.

Clay, I can listen to that man all day, I don't even have to see him.

[keepingfaith]

I think I am turned off by the fact taht she almost gave me a heart attack in the two IT shows I attended. I really should have leftduring her show the second time. I was trembling by the end of her act and it was not from pleasure, I thought my cheart would burst out of my chest, my ribs were in such pain.

I just have to ask you playbiller ... because I've never heard Kelly live, and not that much otherwise, but was it because she was too loud? too screechy and yellie? too much amp?

[playbiller]

Too much Bass

As far as Kelly's act, I felt it was boring. She kicked off her shoes and that was the non-singing highlight. During two songs, she was kneeling on the floor signing autographshead bent down.

Edited June 13, 2007 by playbiller

[Couch Tomato]

Oooh look what I found, Kelly Clarkson thread

Although all this label talk is interesting and I guess relevant to Clay. Interesting that she left the Firm. I honestly don't know what any of these management firms actually do for Clay. I think it's pretty easy to look magical when your performer is the IT guy. But nobody stays the it guy forever, then what. I haven't been impressed by SAM, and wan't impressed by The Firm. Kelly stood a chance, a teeny one, in a fight with Clive maybe at the height of her popularity. I don't think this "narrative" was the way to go. I think it was mostly true but exaggerated to a really ridiculous point. I do believe The Firm came up with that strategy cuz they used the same strategy on Clay -- tried too soon to separate him from AI.

I think Kelly is one of the best young singers out there. I'm just not into her. I'm not into any of the radio pop princesses. And I heard her live 5 times too many during IT. Once would have been fine.

Carrie, I didn't like on American Idol...thought she had the personality of a turnip and wasn't really impressed with her singing. I love her album and I'm hapy for her success.

I do love other idols - KLo and Fantasia . Jennifer Hudson was my favorite from season 3. I liked Bo. I watched seasons 2-4. I loved Trenyce and Rickey from season 2. I think talented folks such as them made that season truly special.

CLAY>..hmmmm he's a cutie.

[Claygasm]

Anyhoo....funny you should mention Linda Ronstadt, CG. I've always loved her and remember how I first felt when she put out that crooner album with Nelson Riddle. I thought she was going to KILL her career! It was so different! Then she sang on Broadway in the Pirates of Penzance (sp?) and I couldn't BELIEVE she'd go an operatic route (She was amazing---what a vocal range!). Then she did smokey blues "Round Midnight" album and I thought "OMG, she's a goner."...Then she did two albums in SPANISH, for crying out loud---a kind of mariachi music in honor of her father's Mexican heritage. Then she did an album with Dolly Parton and Emmilou Harris and I thought, "Shit! She's going country!"...then...

Well, you get my drift. She's such a stud!

This is what I see for Clay---he's so freakin' talented and he's his own person (like Linda--God, the mean things that have been said about her! Slams about her weight, about her 'pop' generic sound, AND about the fact that she doesn't write her own songs, e tc.), so I could very easily see him following his personal preferences in music, tweaking it now and then here and there, venturing and exploring and taking risks...

But ultimately, he can sing like nobody else on the planet (tm Shelley) and people who love what that voice can do to them will always want to hear him sing ---whether he's scatting or rockin' or croonin' or warbling' or glory noting to the nth degree.

The man has a gift and he LOVES to use it...he loves to sing. That's the basic truth I'm counting on to selfishly keep him in my life until I'm gone...and then some (that's me trying not to be selfish...heh)

WORD! On all of it!

I saw Linda Ronstadt the first time when I was too young to drive at a little 50-seat coffee house near here (well, its no longer there..) that hosted such peple as James Taylor, Cat Stevens, Bruce Springsteen and others before they were famous. It was inexpensive and they didn't serve booze, so even the young could go and listen to up and coming singers. I saw James Taylor there half a dozen times. I saw Cat Stevens and Bruce too, as well as Tim Buckley and Tom Rush and even more I can't remember. When I saw Linda I was so close I could have picked the dirt out from under her toenails (she was barefoot). I remember she had these HUGE hoop earrings on. And she was tiny. It was when she performed with the Stone Ponys and "Different Drum" had just come out. She was so good and her voice so pure and strong. With every change of direction musically she took, I thought she was washed up. But she wasn't

When I first heard Kelly, I thought she had the potential to be another Linda Ronstadt. I still do, but like JennaZ said, talent alone is often not enough.

I think Clay has the potential to be a male version of Linda Ronstadt. But again, talent alone is no guarantee.

But I hope they both realize that diversity can be a key to longevity. I have always thought that the ability to reinvent yourself rather than letting yourself become stale can be a key to long term success.

And with that and all the stars aligning correctly, we may be lucky enough to hear Clay's beautiful voice the rest of our lives.

I am probably alone in not liking her songs (no, no don't let go of that wheel, ignore that song, I want to live! eeeeeee!)

Not alone. I do not like that Jesus song - its inane! I can't stand that one about before he cheats. Again, inane. But then again, one reason I generally do not like country music is IMO the lyrics are often inane,

I think I am turned off by the fact taht she almost gave me a heart attack in the two IT shows I attended. I really should have leftduring her show the second time. I was trembling by the end of her act and it was not from pleasure, I thought my cheart would burst out of my chest, my ribs were in such pain.

I saw three IT concerts, In Philly and Wilkes-Barre it was bad. Kelly had not a lot of stage presence and the sound was awful - way too much base. The third show I saw was in San Jose about a month later. I saw a marked improvement in her performance. I thought her stage presence was much, much better and the sound system seemed better. I figured as far as the first thing goes, she had learned from the master! I haven't seen her since, though.

[cindilu2]

Oooh look what I found, Kelly Clarkson thread

Although all this label talk is interesting and I guess relevant to Clay. Interesting that she left the Firm. I honestly don't know what any of these management firms actually do for Clay. I think it's pretty easy to look magical when your performer is the IT guy. But nobody stays the it guy forever, then what. I haven't been impressed by SAM, and wan't impressed by The Firm. Kelly stood a chance, a teeny one, in a fight with Clive maybe at the height of her popularity. I don't think this "narrative" was the way to go. I think it was mostly true but exaggerated to a really ridiculous point. I do believe The Firm came up with that strategy cuz they used the same strategy on Clay -- tried too soon to separate him from AI.

I think Kelly is one of the best young singers out there. I'm just not into her. I'm not into any of the radio pop princesses. And I heard her live 5 times too many during IT. Once would have been fine.

Carrie, I didn't like on American Idol...thought she had the personality of a turnip and wasn't really impressed with her singing. I love her album and I'm hapy for her success.

I do love other idols - KLo and Fantasia . Jennifer Hudson was my favorite from season 3. I liked Bo. I watched seasons 2-4. I loved Trenyce and Rickey from season 2. I think talented folks such as them made that season truly special.

CLAY>..hmmmm he's a cutie.

You are me. Seriously, I could have written that post, except for the Bo/Carrie part because I never saw a show of that season (or season five except the finale).

I think Kelly is a great singer, but I am just totally overkilled with her. As far as I'm concerned, Ricky Smith was the most under-rated performer of all the idol seasons. I FLOVED HIM!

WTWNN with him, Clay and Ruben is one of my favorite things.

[Couch Tomato]

IT was years ago and she has toured a lot since then. I know Clay gets better every tour, Kelly probably has as well. But if that 1 hour concert thing is true...yikes.

[Claygasm]

Yeah, can you imagine the riot if Clay was only on for one hour??

Of course, Mr. Chatty Face could never do that. He would either have to give up the banter or the singing and I can't imagine he could do either!

[PuddinsJoy]

I think Claygasm is my hero - not only does she offer this, which I WORD:

I hate the way so many Clay fans hate Kelly. What did she ever do to them?. . . They are obviously very close friends . . . You would think Clay being so close to her would be good enough for them. ... You know, we always applaud Clay for following his heart, for standing up for what he believes in. Well, I applaud Kelly. If she "fails", at least she failed on her terms. I am sure she could have made another "Breakaway" and been all over the radio again. But in her mind I suspect that would be selling out. I admire her for not doing that.

But she also re-set my hormone levels with this old friend, which I hadn't seen in such a long time -

Maybe we could even use something like this:

So now I ask you to please leave us alone, while we become reacquainted . . .

uhm 'kay

[Ansamcw]

Awww couchie don't make us move yet...I will tie it in with Clay, I promise....

I really love learning all about the industry and I always like figuring out what TC is doing or what motivates them. I think the best way to understand it all is to look at other artist as well and to look for patterns. I remember at the height of the great ATDW debate...the poddies were saying that there is no business reason why RCA would treat a multi-platinum artist the way they treated Clay so it has to be personal. I argued that its all about how big a sale they can predict the project will bring in. If they don't think its too much, they won;t invest too much promo. They are most interested in the return they get for their investment. Well, Kelly sold a lot more than Clay. So why is RCA not pushing for more radio play. Why did they let NA;s radio play die down when there are weeks to go before the cd drops...why isn;t the second single, sober, getting more airplay. I think its because Clive didn;t think the project is a winner. He didn't believe in it so he is not pouring money into it. He is letting Kelly's popularity do the marketing without much promo input from RCA...smart man.Some people would say that its just that Kelly was fighting Clive so he is just petty. I would agree if the product was good. But from what I heard from this CD...Clive was right in pushing for professional help.

Why do some fans hate Kelly? Well I do think some just don;t find her a good enough performer or don;t like her yelling. Others...I think its because of the way some Kelly fans just targetted Clay and his fans. Its good ol fan wars. Some Kelly fans were just so hateful when Clay got all of Kelly;s thinder at the beginning. Its hard to just turn the other cheek when you have a groucho hounding Clay fans at so many sites...

[playbiller]

From what I understand, there was once a 45 minute concert. But there are two opening acts, right?

I did see another Kelly concert, it was on the internet (aol?). I think it was the Hazel eye tour. Basically, she had a lot of video screens showing her lips or eyes or some other body part. There was little banter besides and the next song is and you guys are great. She generally jumped up and down and in a circle in her bare feet, I believe sometimes she walks around now or leans into the guitar player. And at on song, she bent down and started autographing things on the floor, looking down to do it while singing the song. Good for the people up front, not so good for others.

Now, I have been to shows where the performer sat on a chair all night to sing soft blalads, but they usually had stories for all their songs, why they chose a song or why it was a favorite. Heck even fake Elvis had more banter than Kelly, not schtik, but banter.

Clay, I could go to a concert just to listen to him talk. But I won't, hehehe

The down news for me wass that yesterday I could get B row seats in Newark, but they would not sell just one, so I lost them, and I will be sitting back in my balcony seat. I couldn't take a hit for 300 dollars in tickets with all the rest I spent on this tour.