# 10 It isn't so easy to get your knickers off when they're in a knot.

[keepingfaith]

oh...hey someone suggested Sex Machine for the next one! what do ya think??? lol...another one that wont get posted on um, another board...

OK, I just have to ask .... which Sex Machine are we talking about -- the Sly & The Family Stone version from the Stand album ... or the James Brown version?

James Brown one is the one I have.....dont think I have heard the other one...which is best one?

The James Brown song is probably best. The Sly instrumental is quite long, and does get downright slurpy! But, I love the vintage Sly Stone of Stand, I Want to Take You Higher, Sing a Simple Song, You Can Make It If You Try, and Hot Fun in the Summertime!

[JennaZ]

RE: Fan criticism. Every passionate fan base goes over-the-top. Sports fans rant endlessly about owner or coaching choices. TV show fan boards can go ballistic over plot or character developments. It's funny. You look at other active boards on any subject, and you tend to see the same situation played out. Posts bitching and moaning, and posts stating "Well if you hate X so much, why are you posting on this message board?"

Case in point: The message board for the TLC Show, "Little People, Big World." The message board is full of posts about how the family's house is too messy, how the kids are brats, how the father is cruel. And then, there are posts saying, "Well, if you hate the show so much, why are you still watching?" Some champion the right to criticize, sneering at the "self-appointed defenders," while others bemoan the negativity and plead for more positive, less judgemental posts.

I'll admit, on Clay boards, when the negative outweighs the positive, I tend to stay away. I do agree that some fans make very unfair, even offensive comments about Clay. In an ideal world, I'd hope that all comments about him on fan boards were respectful, even if they weren't always supportive or complimentary. However, I've kind of resigned myself to the idea that may not be possible on the bigger boards, perhaps because I've come to realize that there may be different types of personalities involved. Like you, KAndre, I'm not good at listening to people vent. I just don't enjoy listening to complaints. However, I realize that that's really my issue more than a fandom issue. YSRN put it well:

It all goes back to everyone's here for a different reason. Everyone's getting something else out of it. Everyone "likes" Clay on a different level. Thinking back to my own range of feelings for the guy during the course of my fandom, I gotta think that everyone has at least one of those feelings going on at one time or another. And I can respect that. And most definitely their right to have them and express them. As long as nobody is telling anyone else how to feel or how to express their feelings, I personally think there is room for everyone on these boards.

[keepingfaith]

I love this board.Can't wait to hear your prefernce.

Let's let KAndre decide. The dance around the smoldering remains of her opponents got my attention. I want her happy!

[KAndre]

But it's an excellent dance!

I think I would go with the James Brown version for a montage, as I think it's a little more familiar to a wider range of people - but the Sly version is good too...

[keepingfaith]

Is it okay if I fame-ho a little and ask if anybody has ever watched my meager efforts? I don't know if they made their way here to FCA or not. Black Velvet was my first ever, and Once Upon a Dream/Dream On my third. (#2 is just a montage of my wallpapers).

It's more than okay -- you deserve applause for Once Upon a Dream/Dream On ... it is among the favorites that I've burned to my "Best Montages" DVD -- and watch before falling asleep many nights! Thank you so much for that one, cindilu!

[muskifest]

I love the vintage Sly Stone of Stand, I Want to Take You Higher, Sing a Simple Song, You Can Make It If You Try, and Hot Fun in the Summertime!

Whoa! Oh, dude ....

And muski drifts into a delicious pool of memories---of a more innocent time when she was still a virgin, playing ping pong with her best friend with these songs blasting and both high schoolers shaking booty shamelessly between pings and pongs..

[muskifest]

Print Ad for Frisco

Sigh....he's so purdy. Wish they felt they could have left out the "Runner Up Season 2" part, but I guess for many people who might be regular visitors to soccer games or Fourth fireworks there, he pretty much dropped out of view since 2003, huh?

ETA: Sooooo......the concert is from 8:15-9:45 pm, huh? Ninety minutes of Clay? Crap...that's just an appetizer. :angry22:

Edited June 6, 2007 by muskifest

[Carolina Clay]

rcknrllmom, your montages are simply fabulous! I am in awe! Thanks for the reminder keepingfaith.

Is it okay if I fame-ho a little and ask if anybody has ever watched my meager efforts? I don't know if they made their way here to FCA or not. Black Velvet was my first ever, and Once Upon a Dream/Dream On my third. (#2 is just a montage of my wallpapers).

And don't forget Sunshine! Love all three, Cindilu!

With Cindilu2, Rcknrllmom, and Aspiegirl, FCA has some very talented montage makers. I didn't know Aspie was a member until I started looking at the list. Btw, I gave up in the C's, so there are probably many more creative artists in this medium here.

Hi, Champion!

I have to back track and read the wonderful discussion about the fandom before I comment further, but I must say it is awesome that we can talk about all this. Back in a bit!

Caro

Edited June 6, 2007 by Carolina Clay

[clayzedover]

So nice to see so many familiar names as "newbies." Glad you're here.

I am not as prolific here as on other boards, but enjoy this place a lot. And never more than when the Clay criticism is so overboard elsewhere that I can't take it. Nobody is perfect, and Clay is in a learning curve about just about everything dealing with his career. Why people get so involved in the negatives drives me nutz.

The big and likely expensive production Clay put together for JNT05 was a huge undertaking for such a fledgeling career IMO. Instead of rewarding him for the positives and his attempt to offer us something different, many of his fans hit him with the equivalent of a sledgehammer. It was what it was -- an attempt to write and produce something to put the songs together cohesively to avoid boredom -- and I thought it was pretty novel. He wasn't served well by whoever put the production together for him. The sightlines were not good, the sets even blocked some sightlines. Fans wanted more of him, less production and more talk, but how would he know that if he hadn't tried? Clay's not stoopid, am sure he heard loud and clear from those he trusts that there were problems. At the same time, his fans repeating it over and over on every board probably hurt ticket sales as well. I loved him for doing that show for us. It was a boatload of hard work! It was hard to hear him say the Beacon that he "aimed too high." But, as always, Clay took what he could from it, learned and moved on.

Last year's show was ALL him. And it was wonderful. He needed nobody else on that stage with him. The orchestra was just icing on the cake, allowing that beautiful voice to float over the audience. Combined with the banter, he showed me just how much he had grown as an entertainer. If not for JNT05, we might not have had JNT06. So it served a purpose, despite all the complaining. Cannot wait to find out what he has learned from THAT and what his next show will be!

The poor guy has only been in the entertainment business "officially" less than five years. Fans will come and go. People have short attention spans these days. BUT, I know Clay will be around for a LONG time. He has what it takes. And I will be here with him all the way.

[champion124]

Thanks for the Welcomes.... :F_05BL17blowkiss:

I too just stay away if the subject isn't something I enjoy...I really feel if I'm not having fun somewhere, I need to get myself somewhere else. I know that scroll can be my friend--but when I'm scrolling for pages or even hours at a time...I tend to find another place to go and have some fun. I don't have a lot of time on the net anyway and am never going to have a huge post number. It is just more my nature to read and laugh along and enjoy all you funny and creative people. (Yep, I do mean all you amazing montage makers. )

Carolina Clay.. :big hug:

JennaZ...it's wonderful to hear from you again! I've missed you. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[Clayzorback]

Thanks to ldyjocelyn for editing my dual post. I was having severe problems with this board this morning. It was moving like a snail. I had to shut computer down and start over. By that time, I needed to fly out the door for work. Didn't realize I double posted. Not only that after I shut down, Mozilla dropped all my ^%&$& bookmarks. Now I have to hunt them all down again. :angry22:

I didn't have time to watch the video, that is now private, rcknrllmom posted. Too late for the family now, I bet. It's probably all over cyberspace. LOL I have probably given her a big head as many times as I have complimented her on her montages. Cindi I saw yours and they were good too. Lots of fans make great montages and I really enjoy watching them. Thanks keepingfaith for posting that youtube link. I love Katie Melua's song Nine Million Bicycles, too. I hadn't heard this song before, but I immediately recognized her voice. Have you all checked out lucky and goldarngirl's montage site? Here is a link:

http://www.goldarngirl.com/

l

I agree that Clay gave Jaymes permission. I knew that, but I think Clay was naive and ill prepared for how some of his fans can, and will, react to stuff. I do know that he has made a tremendous effort, since then, to shut off any further info coming from people. Especially his family and friends. Also he has stopped giving his fans much info as well. I have come to a point in my fandom, where I don't want to know things before they happen anymore. It takes the element of surprise away, for me, and sometimes sets up disappointment. In fact I don't download every piece of Clack anymore either. luckiest1 made a good point about how clack can set up disappointment for some fans.

Ah, but a lot of what caused the angst was not knowledge, but rumor and supposed insider information. I think angst builds most when fans speculate on something and build it up to a certain point, and then when the truth doesn't fit the rumour, it explodes. I do agree that Clay doesn't give much away in his blogs, but I think that's because, even though he's made a few references to not reading things into his words, people continue to do so. I will never understand why people can't just take what he says at face value. To me, it's a pretty common courtesy.

I agree luckiest1. What I find so fascinating is that people still follow and hang on certain people's words even after they have been shown to be wrong countless times. Someone posted awhile back that they wished the fans wouldn't be so gullible and I have to just say a huge AMEN to that.

The problem with putting your creative efforts out there is that some will like what you do and some won't. If you're going to do it, you have to be willing to hear the bad with the good. We as fans are not obligated to love everything he does. While I applauded his effort, the JNT05 to me was bad. IMO, it was like watching a mediocre high school production, except the singing was a lot better.

Did some fans go over the top with their criticism? Sure, just like some went over the top with their praise! Happens all the time. I think its sort of like in some sports where they throw out the lowest and highest scores and then average the rest together. That's what I think any artist should do with criticism of their work - don't get too high from the gushing praise and don't get too low from the worst comments. Just look at what those in the middle have to say and take from it what you will.

I really liked this post claygasm. I agree that the positive police can be every bit as OTT, as the so called negative nellies. I liked your analogy here. I think that is exactly what Clay does. Scrolls the constant whiners post, and scrolls the OTT smoochie smoochie do no wrong insincere posts, and takes a sampling from the rest.

I'd say that anyone who is human is affected in some way by the criticism or accolades that their work brings. How much anyone is affected depends on the person. I can only hope Clay is strong enough to ignore the OTT criticism, and take the OTT praise with a grain of salt. I'd love to believe that most of the stuff that gets posted on the boards (including his official fan board) doesn't affect him. But I don't.

luckiest1, I think Clay used to get his feelings hurt. I hope he has, since come to know, just as we do, which fans he needs to scroll past. I still think he should stop reading the boards altogether. In fact if he closed down his OFC message board, I would be a happy camper. It certainly isn't a promotional tool for his career anymore. JMO It seems to me to be filled with disappointed fans, who just can't seem to move on, and pod people dropping their "we know something you don't hints in every post." IMO. I hate for new fans to go there.

Oh I would NEVER say anything to any member of the family or, God-forbid, Clay! And I would never say Clay doesn't have the right to do things like that. Not my place. But I don't have to like it and I just wasn't awwwwwing with everyone else.

I also have never liked any of the audience participation moments. Wasn't awwwwing over Brianna either. Guess I'm just a selfish bitch. So be it. When I go see Clay, I want to see Clay - not members of the audience on stage no matter how cute, how adorable or how heart-wrenching their backstory may be.

I guess Clay's heart is just bigger than mine and even though I may not always like it, I also hope he always follows his heart.

Sheepishly raises hand and says I agree, guilty as charged. I want Clay only, for my several hundred dollar investment, not fans. However as kandre? so brilliantly stated, if I was the fan being engaged, I wouldn't worry about fans like me for a second. I would go for it. So there you go. LOL

Sometimes I think the board rules breed passive/aggressive behaviour. I know I'm guilty of it at times, when what I'd really like to say is 'I think you're full of shit'. But I can't. :eusa_whistle: I think a goodly amount of 'snark' would be more aptly labled passive/aggressiveness.

You are the woman cindi. I think I have been known to say some are full of shi* on many occasions. I have incurred the blue ink and post deletes for my attempts to say what others wish they could make themselves say. I have my cheerleaders as well as some who don't care for my style. But I have decided to no longer engage these people who want to constantly keep the angst stirred with their special knowledge.

I am a fan of your posts playbiller...........

Welcome to champion. Those Nebraska Clay fans are awesome.

On the passive aggressive front, I know perfectly well I am quite capable of that as well, as well as being plain ole aggressive - I wanna win. Period. I like crushing my opponents, and doing a little dance around their smouldering remains.

OMG kandre.

Oh thanks muski. Clay next to fireworks is appropriate. :TourExcite:

Nobody is perfect, and Clay is in a learning curve about just about everything dealing with his career.

Excellent point and one that is frequently forgotten. Thanks.

Whew. Talkative bunch today. I think I'm caught up so I need to go ice my carrot cake for work tomorrow. Tonight there is a new show on I want to catch. The celebrity look alike one. It looks like it might be funny.

[rcknrllmom]

MUAH?! a big head? not a chance.....ask anyone....

and did you mean I posted it was private...or I posted...cause I didnt only that it was private...lol

I hear ya about the scroll button.....I use it a lot...but would be nice if I didnt have to.....

dont need to use it here!

Champion are you signed up for the Houston preparty too????

watched that celebrity impersonator show last week...it was pretty good...some good ones, some horrible ones..imagine that!

Edited June 6, 2007 by rcknrllmom

[Claygasm]

Print Ad for Frisco

Sigh....he's so purdy. Wish they felt they could have left out the "Runner Up Season 2" part, but I guess for many people who might be regular visitors to soccer games or Fourth fireworks there, he pretty much dropped out of view since 2003, huh?

ETA: Sooooo......the concert is from 8:15-9:45 pm, huh? Ninety minutes of Clay? Crap...that's just an appetizer. :angry22:

That picture is so yummy and yet, when he takes the stage, he won't look like that! Although, its about a month away. His hair seems to grow fast......

And only 90 minutes??? Not nearly enough time! Why, that's just foreplay!

Welcome Champion! Yet another newbie! Cool!

Edited June 6, 2007 by Claygasm

[muskifest]

It seems to me to be filled with disappointed fans, who just can't seem to move on, and pod people dropping their "we know something you don't hints in every post." IMO. I hate for new fans to go there.

Clayzorback...sadly, I must agree with you here. I really don't think the site is a career booster and Lawd Jesus, the management of its tour and ticket info so far ain't impressive! You know, often BS fills voids and I'm afraid that has occurred at OFC. Without a LARGE Clay presence there (heh) with any regularity, those with the time and inclination fill the empty pages with their own BS flavor. Of course, being the good lil' CLay minion that I am, I'll always stay a member of the damned place.

So many new FCAers! Hey, Couchie and Ansa and all you other thousands of mods, you might actually need to moderate something soon!

Edited June 6, 2007 by muskifest

[Couch Tomato]

So many new FCAers! Hey, Couchie and Ansa and all you other thousands of mods, you might actually need to moderate something soon!

LOL I swear every time I want to write an admin note I have to ask Ansa what color do we use. Have at it. You can say "hey you're full of shit here! Just be nice about it.

[muskifest]

can say "hey you're full of shit here! Just be nice about it.

"You're full of nice shit?"

[playbiller]

Gee, how many times have I been accused of being a member of the positive police, not that I know if there is such a thing - just my usual "why the heck am I here if I am not having fun" attitude.

Wow, all these newbes checks self for appropriate behavior and language.

let's see, something so people will think I am friendly

something so people will think I am funny or something

a caution

And a helpful suggestion

Well, I think I am off to buy a big map of Texas - I am still a little confused onthings so I need something appropriately ste-like big to figure it out.

ETA - I think that Frisco ad needsto say AI runner up because most people will not recognize Clay from that photo, and he will look different again this summer with his shorter hair. It willhelp them find the album though

Edited June 6, 2007 by playbiller

[keepingfaith]

The OFC can be the most depressing place in the world. But let Clay blog and it is afire with excitement within minutes, and for as long as he's logged on. Unfortunately, once he's gone, the claws come back out and the fans exit out by droves. I'll continue to be a member at OFC, in fact I just renewed. It was worth more than the membership fee for the Houston pre-sale alone -- no way I could have gotten second row seats for my first Clay Aiken concert without the OFC. For that, I'm totally grateful.

And ... now I know about The Riches, which I'm catching up on and am very much enjoying so far. I knew the show was for me at the end of Episode 3 when they played Thunderclap Newman's "Something in the Air" -- that was enough to seal the deal for me right there.

[rcknrllmom]

Why am I suddenly thinking I was pretty stupid to skip Frisco and just go to Houston and Tulsa? cause I was!

[YSRN]

You know, often BS fills voids and I'm afraid that has occurred at OFC. Without a LARGE Clay presence there (heh) with any regularity, those with the time and inclination fill the empty pages with their own BS flavor. Of course, being the good lil' CLay minion that I am, I'll always stay a member of the damned place.

True 'dat! That place is definitely a pit of hell or something... the claws and the bickering I can't take. Complaining yes, bickering no. See? I have a line! Hee. But yeah, I'll always have a membership... not sure if it's because I'm a minion, or I'm too freaking nosy!

You can say "hey you're full of shit here! Just be nice about it.

no way I could have gotten second row seats for my first Clay Aiken concert without the OFC. For that, I'm totally grateful.

I absolutely can.not.wait for your response to the concert. I'm so glad you got good seats. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Oooo, I gotta watch the second The Riches. Minion that I am and all.

I have no manners!!!

[Claygasm]

Some really bad nerdy person on SYTYCD is trying to dance to RTM!!!!

Oh never mind - its a rerun from last week.....

Edited June 7, 2007 by Claygasm

[ldyjocelyn]

Oh man, I take an afternoon off to get a bunch of errands done, and ya'll turn into a bunch of postwhores! But I can see why though too -- what a great class of new people here.

:garfieldodie-grouphug:

When I faced my mortality 5 years ago...it changed a lot of things.... I always found the good...most of the time, tried to find the happiness...most of the time....Complained...more than now. Didnt take any risks...then the dr said..."I have some tough news." and it changed everything....I REFUSE to angst or worry about Clay ...what good does it do....Clay is my JOY , so to speak....he is my good. My daughter and I have gone places we never thought we would, met people who otherwise we didnt know existed...just plain have been having a helluva grand time!! And I like to think it carries over in my every day life...my kids tell me I am crazy...I say thank you....

cause god if you didnt laugh, and feel good...what is the point??????

I really, really, really like your style. Your post made me smile so much. Thank you. Oh, and thank you for all the montages too....they are so fantastic. I can watch pictures of Clay scroll by on my computer screen for HOURS. cindilu2, I love your montages too.

You'll all be shocked to know that I don't mind the OTT criticism or the OTT praise or the mediocre stuff. I want it all!

Seriously.

I'm shocked, I tell ya, shocked! Only not. *g*

I'm an easy bitch though, because I pretty much just take things for what they are at the time. If I love it, I'll watch again. If I don't... I won't. But I'm still glad for what it was when it happened. And I might love it at the time, because I'm in the Clay Aiken fog and later think, WTF was that and how did I get sucked in so easily.

I think this sums me up too. I do have to admit that most of the singers during the NAT made me a little like "get out of the way, please"....but then there were some priceless ones too, and we couldn't have had them without having some bad too. But my point is that yeah, I go with the flow when I'm seeing Clay live, and then later, cuss myself out for being stuck in the Clay Aiken vacuum cleaner.

Nah, YSRN, it doesn't sound stupid - just that you are a lot more accepting of other people's point of view, I think...

I know perfectly well I'm not particularly good at that traditionally female ability just to listen to people vent - I tend to take 'venting' as a precursor to 'attempting to fix' - because if I'm bitching about something, I want them to change whatever the hell it is to what I want - and if I keep venting to someone about a point of view, I want that someone to come around to my point of view. I've never seen the point of Monday morning quarterbacking. The fandom is slowly bringing me around to the point of view that people are really just complaining, and don't expect anything of it. I don't think I'll ever really understand it though. Stuff I don't like, I'll say bad things about it, then stop thinking about it.

Cheese of all types is good though.

Another reason why I'm a minion, because this sums me up pretty well too. I suppose I can deal with some venting...as long as it lasts no more than 5 minutes. And like KAndre, I too am learning that some of the complaints truly are just venting. I've learned a hell of a lot about myself by being in this fandom.

The James Brown song is probably best. The Sly instrumental is quite long, and does get downright slurpy! But, I love the vintage Sly Stone of Stand, I Want to Take You Higher, Sing a Simple Song, You Can Make It If You Try, and Hot Fun in the Summertime!

Bolding mine. This sounds like the perfect song to sum up the :Tour3:

RE: Fan criticism. Every passionate fan base goes over-the-top. Sports fans rant endlessly about owner or coaching choices. TV show fan boards can go ballistic over plot or character developments. It's funny. You look at other active boards on any subject, and you tend to see the same situation played out. Posts bitching and moaning, and posts stating "Well if you hate X so much, why are you posting on this message board?"

And you would think I would know that, being a Star Trek fan and all. Talk about whiners if things weren't "cannon." But, I wasn't an internet Star Trek fan, and I think that's a big difference for me.

Case in point: The message board for the TLC Show, "Little People, Big World." The message board is full of posts about how the family's house is too messy, how the kids are brats, how the father is cruel. And then, there are posts saying, "Well, if you hate the show so much, why are you still watching?" Some champion the right to criticize, sneering at the "self-appointed defenders," while others bemoan the negativity and plead for more positive, less judgemental posts.

I love that show, and thanks for letting me know that I should probably just stay away from that board.

clayzedover, I loved your post about how Clay is learning in this business. I know some people would NOT say this, but I believe he's a risk taker. He tries things -- some work, some don't. In the process, he learns from that. It's a great quality to have, one that some people never develop. And this:

The poor guy has only been in the entertainment business "officially" less than five years. Fans will come and go. People have short attention spans these days. BUT, I know Clay will be around for a LONG time. He has what it takes. And I will be here with him all the way.

I'm with him all the way too. Love this paragraph.

I have come to a point in my fandom, where I don't want to know things before they happen anymore. It takes the element of surprise away, for me, and sometimes sets up disappointment. In fact I don't download every piece of Clack anymore either. luckiest1 made a good point about how clack can set up disappointment for some fans.

I'm getting there, but there have been many instances where I don't want to know everything either. It's much more fun to hear that song for the first time without hearing other people opinions first.

I really liked this post claygasm. I agree that the positive police can be every bit as OTT, as the so called negative nellies. I liked your analogy here. I think that is exactly what Clay does. Scrolls the constant whiners post, and scrolls the OTT smoochie smoochie do no wrong insincere posts, and takes a sampling from the rest.

I keep thinking to myself that I'd love it if Clay read this board. I think we've got a good balance here....

And to end on a freaking funny note:

can say "hey you're full of shit here! Just be nice about it.

"You're full of nice shit?"

Just because this made me LMAO.

[bottlecap]

Some Tonight Show gah-worthy pics via mee2u2. As always, please respect her tags and don't post them at the OFC.

[YSRN]

Well, dayum..... those are purdy!

[ldyjocelyn]

Well, dayum..... those are purdy!

I'll second that. Man, he looked so good that night. And I love that suit.