#14 We were all up on him screaming "Yeah! Yeah!"

[KAndre]

See, I have difficulty in drawing the line if we include:

Any fan who spends an excessive amount of energy 'dancing' and gyrating and moving about their seat (yeah...I remember being at a concert with Ethel and thinking I was very grateful to be several rows behind her, 'cause if I were sitting next to her or directly behind her my ability to see and focus on the concert would have been even more impeded.

because I do dance in my spot a lot. And find it excessively odd that so many are so perfectly still at a concert - especially when dance music is playing. For me, part of the joy of attending a live concert is at least a little participating, to immerse oneself I guess as opposed to focus externally. I guess that's why I'm willing to cut people a little slack - I tend to draw the line where I find the interaction to be jarring - an inappropriate shout out, most of the preplanned blinky light stuff, etc.

I am so not working today.

[luckiest1]

I'm glad Ethel is giving some thought about how her actions affect those around her. While I don't want to see her deprived of the joy she feels when she sees Clay, nor do I begrudge her the interactions she's had as a result of ingratiating herself to him and his staff, I do feel some sympathy for those who are seated in her immediate area and those who've attended concerts with her in the audience. If Clay initiates the interaction with her, then more power to her and go at it, girlfriend! Clay is looking for his 'go-to' fan for a little bit o' bantering, and that's fine by me.

My own hope is that for future concerts audience members will limit their participation to what Clay, himself, initiates and then know when that interaction is over. Will it happen? I hope so; I don't want to see Clay feel inhibited or cautious when he reaches out to the audience, but I also don't wish to see 'An Evening with the Audience of Clay Aiken'. So, maybe everyone has learned a little bit more about themselves and it will make for a more enjoyable concert experience for everyone. I can only hope.

Wow, just WORD to your whole post, but especially to the above two paragraphs!

And some folks were actually starting to trash Jerome for offering her her money back. When I made a post that contained a little more of the interaction between the booer and Jerome than had been prevously allowed, I was edited and got a "we're not going to do the good fan/bad fan thing here" PM. Yet it was fine for people to make Ethel into the worst kind of fan. Hypocrite much? I don't know why they're protecting her, either. It totally confuzzles me.

Heh, aren't you glad we are actually allowed to discuss stuff like adults here? One of the reasons I love this board. I'd love to hear more about the interaction if you are willing to share. And I have long been a supporter of equal opportunity - either you can call fans out by name, or you can't. Not either/or. If someone can criticize Ethel, they should be able to criticize CAP.

Personally, I've sat near Ethel on many occasions. Yep, she can be annoying. She can also be v.v. funny. I think Clay likes having someone in the audience who he can consistently pick on, who gets his humour, and who he can always go to for comedic relief. I sometimes wish he wouldn't, but hey, it's not my show. I usually end up getting a chuckle out of it anyways. As for fans who publicly boo at a concert? No excuse, IMO.

Wouldn't you love to see Clay pull Ethel up on stage and do a WDC-type dance with her and watch some heads explode?

That I would pay to see!

edited to reflect edit made by original poster quoted...ansa

Edited August 24, 2007 by Ansamcw

[luckiest1]

See, I have difficulty in drawing the line if we include:

Any fan who spends an excessive amount of energy 'dancing' and gyrating and moving about their seat (yeah...I remember being at a concert with Ethel and thinking I was very grateful to be several rows behind her, 'cause if I were sitting next to her or directly behind her my ability to see and focus on the concert would have been even more impeded.

because I do dance in my spot a lot. And find it excessively odd that so many are so perfectly still at a concert - especially when dance music is playing. For me, part of the joy of attending a live concert is at least a little participating, to immerse oneself I guess as opposed to focus externally. I guess that's why I'm willing to cut people a little slack - I tend to draw the line where I find the interaction to be jarring - an inappropriate shout out, most of the preplanned blinky light stuff, etc.

Heh, we agree except on the preplanned blinky stuff. :eusa_whistle: Anyone who has sat beside or behind me probably finds me a tad annoying, too, becoss I cannot.sit.still. And I clap my hands over my head on occasion. And wave glow sticks. And jump up and down when I am excited. And I might yell "woo hoo" in an appropriate spot (i.e. not during the singing). So shoot me, I'm having fun!

[KAndre]

See, luckiest what you need are some of those there glowin' TEETH! I saw 'em at Orlando! Even I couldn't object to them!

Mock you forever, yes...but not object!

[bottlecap]

I will to admit to letting a "Yee Haw!!" or two slip out, but it was during "Achy Breaky" and Clay started it... I don't have a problem with Rural Americans, I swear!

[Ansamcw]

Muskifest,

I wonder if Clay thinks he erred in bring up the race issue. Unlike moi, he was not born when segregation was a big issue and people were throwing rocks at little kids trying to go to school and threatening to kill them. It was an ugly time. Now a days, not such a big deal.

Looking at the video, I felt he was joking around and continuing the ongoing joke that he had with Quiana and Angela-- He is a very pale white guy and they are black women. They used this fact to make silly comments to each other.

Although I am sure he is just as sick to death of all the fan bickering as a lot of us are. It only takes a few bitter to people to ruin the fun.

OT, Weird, I just spent a few minutes looking for the o key on my laptop because it had a speck of dirt on it and it looked like a c. Oy! :eusa_whistle:

I will have to respectfully disagree here. Clay has been conscious of racism since he was young and disapproved of Vernon's attitude as he shared with us on LTS. He has a lot of African American friends...he is a very sensitive young man and very much aware of history and current events, I don't think he takes that lightly.

I don't think he was accusing the fandom or even this person of being racist cos he was asking a question afterall. But I think he has been concerned about this...I think Quiana and Angela have been seeing things and sensing things that make them wonder. I do believe he asked that question so this person can reflect if that is the basis of all this dislike.

WORD to KAndre...I don't think racism is prevalent in the fandom at all. I do think the majority of the probem with Ethel is either jealousy or just people not used to such exuberant behavior in a concert. But just as in the larger society...you can bet that there is a percentage of the fandom that is racist and this does come out once in a while. We do not know what Q&A have experienced what kind of comments they have gotten in private... but when Quiana says they see much more than we thing they do...I think that means they are aware of some of the ugliness in this fandom.

To me the Ethel comments have been going on for a long time...and the fact that she has made herself pretty much a public figure by wearing her Ethel shirts...makes it understandable why people just refer to her by name. Clay has added her to the banter so she is well known in the fandom. But I was surprised that Toni got comments as well...and the sean and jesse fans getting dissed??? that is definitely disturbing to me.

I do think that because the fandom is so diverse we will meet up with people that are used to different types of concerts. There are the concerts where people usually just sit and listen to the music...there are the rock type of concerts where the audience are regularly screaming at their favorites ...there are concerts where people are always up and dancing where they are and are constantly talking to the performers. I think people should just learn to be tolerant.

To me the behavior that I find frustrating is when the audience are talking amongst themselves and seeming to care more about socializing with their seatmate than giving clay attention. I know I have turned to my seatmate before to make comments but I always whisper cos I don;t want to disturb her...I do understand what KAndre is saying about the Clay audience. I know I felt a bit frustrated cos although people were standing they were not dancing...and I do like to dance in my seat so I ended up feeling inhibited. I have sang with clay before but its when he encourages us to do so. Clay has chosen to make his audience part of his show...he has embraced that so we have to accept the Regina's and the Ethel's. To me it just adds so much to my enjoyment.

Darn while I was making this post I see lots of people have commented...will catch up after posting this.

[rcknrllmom]

I will to admit to letting a "Yee Haw!!" or two slip out, but it was during "Achy Breaky" and Clay started it... I don't have a problem with Rural Americans, I swear!

well that is good to know..I AM a rural American.....small town Iowa AND I live in the country..BUT i do not now or ever say yee haw OR listen to country music...hence the name...rcknrllmom...

:medium-smiley-070:

[KAndre]

Huh...I didn't think Achy Breaky Heart had a yee-haw in it - but then again I refuse to learn the words! HA HA! Take that, Clay!

I do listen to some country music here in the heart of the big city! Us Urban Americans can holler with the best of 'em (I refuse to yee haw though).

[muskifest]

This is a sensitive issue and even though I'm the one who just typed the booing fan's name, my reason was to level what I considered an uneven playing field. I have no desire to get into namecalling and that whole good/ban fan thing. I imagine many of us have had personal 'interactions' with one fan or another on a message board and when we get too 'into' talking about it, we can get off the track---and that track is Clay Aiken, ain't it?

The race thing is another 'white' elephant in the room (heh....I'm so freakin' funny, huh? ) I agree with this from stpteach:

I don't know if given the same set of circumstances and the opportunity to rephrase his retort he would; I think his comment was as much a direct reflection of his response to Quiana's (and Angela's) reactions as it was to the 'booing' and the 'rolling of the eyes'. His back-up singers have become an integral part of his show and the three of them have become so comfortable with one another that their skin color is a non-issue for them to the point that they're able to kibbitz around about it. My personal feeling is that Clay was trying to take the edge off of the situation and make a light-hearted joke, much like the wonderful silliness that had gone on with the girls needing a spotlight on them because 'they're his "black-up" singers, you know'. That one worked; 'not liking black people' - not so much.

Especially the bolded part. I knew when he said it that although he was 'joking', this particular quip in this particular situation wasn't going to 'work'...I can't offer the perspective on this issue as KAndre can, but I did grow up in the South in decades when such a remark could've been the spark for quite a mess---a much more serious mess than anything that happened in Orlando last week. So I immediately reacted, wondering just how many of our audience was 'enlightened', I guess.

In any case. I also agree that Clay Aiken is most likely not losing sleep over his comment. HE knows how he meant it and Lord knows we know that he will say what he wants to. His concern, I would imagine, would be Ethel's feelings. But then again, I'm projecting there too, huh? SInce I don't know the man.

It all comes back to personal accountability to me. I have to be willing to 'own' my words and actions and then accept the responsibility of dealing with however they represent me to others. I can deal by denying them when they cause controversy; I can defend them reactively, regardless of the logic or moral 'fairness', merely because they're mine; I can twist them to better align with the majority of the discussion so as not to be a pariah; I can give serious consideration to others' reactions to them and then perhaps wish to change them somehow in the future.

You get my drift. But ultimately, those words and actions are MINE, so I shouldn't be able to pretend they didn't get said or done when the fire is burning.

And now, because I really do love animals, even dead horses, I will end my

Have a great day, all! :F_05BL17blowkiss:

ETA: OOOOH! I see that while I was composing my blahblah, we've moved on to YeeHaws!

Edited August 24, 2007 by muskifest

[KAndre]

You know us, we've mixed up racism, yee haws, dancing and glowing teeth as usual....

[muskifest]

This man just loves to thrust his pelvis forward, doesn't he?

[KAndre]

Ha ha! NEW PAGE!

Gibby, dear Gibby...I know I eventually go to bed but I swear I saw you volunteer for something, so in my helpful way I just added you here and there...

Where's PerusingOne? I think she knows about strings and such...I think she should be volunteered to do the instrumentals that are left...

Do we have any guys to judge the pole dance?

FCA recommends...DCAT songs

Here You Come Again - laughn

Everything I Have - KAndre

I Want to Know What Love Is (couchie because she's quicker than me)

When I See You Smile - lickiest1

Everytime You Go Away - jmh123, jamar1700

Right Here Waiting - lickiest1

The West Wing theme - jmh123 (HA HA!)

Perfect Strangers - jamar1700

Full House - couchie

Laverne and Shirley - Gibby

What's Happening

Growing Pains - atinal

Different Strokes - atinal

Charles in Charge - Gibby

Roseanne

Who's the Boss - Gibby

WKRP in Cincinnati - merrieeee

Golden Girls - Couchie

Gimme a Break

Welcome Back Kotter - couchie

The Jeffersons - lickiest1

All in the Family - lickiest1 (hee!)

These Open Arms - Claygasm & jamar1700

When the Lights Go Down - cindilu2

A Thousand Days - artquest

Sorry Seems to be the Hardest Word - playbiller

Measure of a Man - muskifest

Without You - ansa

The Way You Make me Feel - YSRN

Baby Got Back - KAndre

Like a Virgin - lickiest1

Bills Bills, Bills - keepingfaith

1999 - keepingfaith

She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy - keepingfaith

Oops, I Did It Again - lickiest1

OPP - KAndre

Yeah - KAndre

SexyBack - lickiest1

Achy Breaky Heart - lickiest1 (HA!)

Opposites Attract - KAndre

Beat It - FearofH2O (hell, there were enough zombies in the audience!)

Listen - cindilu2

Lover All Alone - jmh123

Because You Loved Me - ldyjocelyn

[rohdy]

Newbie...with issues.... Sorry.

First...I have been in negotiations with e and we have settled our differences...so all is good.

I guess it is easy to enjoy antics when it is viewed in down loads or an occasional thing. Or you have more patience then I.

Way back when this fandom started I absolutely loved e, I remember finally locating her at the first Christmas concert and getting all giddy. 'Woo-hoo! There she was! That's her!' But by the 6th tour it became a ''Oh for heavens sake" moment. This year I went straight to eye roll...praying the conversation would end quickly...especially when the B-B-Q sauce 'suck him down' talk started. Just no. Not with 11-13 yr old in the audience. Yeah..they're more savvy then I like to give them credit....I just don't want to know about it.

In discussing my problem with the Mr. it finally took this example, for him to get what I was trying to say..

It's much like the neighborhood kid who blast his music as loud as he wants...day or night. He's not breaking any laws. But his need to prove his coolness...to prove that he too has rights, it is more important to him, then anyone else's discomfort.

So subtle hints are dropped by the neighbors.

'Wow, your radio sure is loud'.

'Hey I can't hear the tv'!

'Your music kept me awake last night'.

And the kid thinks...."They can't tell ME what to do!! I'm just havin' a little fun!"

And pretty soon....the neighbors are calling him a 'good for nothing punk', 'that hoodlum', they yell, "Hey! turn it down!" and so it goes.

It escalates and becomes a big ole mess.

All because it was more important for him to blast his music and impress his friends, have fun his way then to heed the subtle hints and requests of neighbors and compromise. They didnt want him to stop enjoying his music and having fun. Just not so loud.

But in the end. He is...just a kid. There is hope he will eventually grow up and out of the habit.

Might I also add...booing is never a good thing! Just as saying someone doesn't like black folks, in front of how many other people? Is just a tad out of line. I'd like to think both have regrets...yet neither has commented.

On a happier note....I like what I see here. I like the linear thread concept.....makes it much easier to move on and get on with it!

And you have just the purdiest pictures....evah!!

[Couch Tomato]

Hey, I'm fine. Just blissfully unaware while sleeping. I didn't delete my post...when the clock hiccupped I moved my one line up to my previous post so that those who followed me would actually make sense. heh. Sorry.

I was suprrised when I finally actually watched the clack that I got an ache in the pit of my stomach. It's hard for me to talk about now because I don't want to say I know how Clay was feeling or what was goign on that wasn't said. And I laugh at those that read clay's eyes and decide they know what's up. But I just got really uneasy, mostly because of what Quiana said. I mean she responded IMMEDIATELY and strongly IMO. And then the sequence of events that followed - I mean how would he know Toni gotten harrassed? I just think some discussion had taken place in the past between "the family." Do I think Clay was joking? Honestly, I felt he was tight during the whole thing. I admit right here and now I could be projecting because I am African American myself for those that don't know..

I will tell you this. I have NEVER personally felt the sting of racism in this fandom. But unlike the rest of my family, heh, you have to really hit me over the head with a truck to see it anyway. But I'm sure the percentages would equal society, so it is not immune to it. And since we're being honest and hopefully we can talk about things and just move on - RHT was not a site I could ever spend more than 5 minutes in (with major exception going to EAYOR where I could spend 5 hours at a time heh). Especially that nasty little rant threat they used to have. Don't know if they still do. So I stayed away. It's hard for me to say something is racism because Clay is "protected" from his own mama But in general the use of lazy to describe Ruben (this was long ago before he became threatless so it's ok to now like him), the jarring eye opening jolt I got one day when a DJ pretended to be Fantasia and said some not so nice things about Clay - yikes - it was one of the few times I PMed a mod to say..that needs to be deleted -- it was nasty AND racist and it was by more than a few people - one of them under discussion today. And then little things like I can find 2000 fan fictions on the Clarman but one on the Clyra, a couple on the Clangela when they are clearly THE most dynamic, intriguing, almost writes itself pairings in the past 4 years.. But then again I chalk that up to people writing what they know and perhaps they didn't feel comfy writing fiction about black women. (And there was plenty of Clocke back in the day). I think this particular situation with Ethel has other issues that have nothing to do with racism. Don't know what on earth is going on with Toni and why Clay seemed to know about it.

As for Ethel - I have never been around her in concert. I have been more disturbed by people 500 feet away from Ethel who were just pissy cuz he paid attentioned to her. She certainly didn't personally disrupt their concert. And yep, Ethel needs to tone it down in concert if she is disturbing those around her. But call and response is just ingrained in us. Don't go to a movie with a lot of black folks cuz yeah sometimes they still talk to the screen heh. And sometimes music makes us want to move in our seats. I'm pretty rhythmless so I don't qualify on that last thing. heh. And I just have plenty of Ethels in my family and in my life.

Anyway, perhaps the comfortableness of some of the jokes on this tour loosened Clay's tongue. The whole I'm too dark, get the spotlight on me was funny to me. The many contrasts between Clay and the girls were made fun of many times. I dont' know if he regrets it. But if it opens a dialogue than it's not a bad thing. But unfortunately in this fandom, there will be no dialogue. So I'm sad that he had to feel discomfort in his own concert. I'm sorry that I felt the sting of the real world while clack watching. I'm sorry that fans harrass other fans no matter the reason. And yep there is a definite we dont' mess with our own but can see the bad behaviuor in people from other boards mentaility - in other words a bunch of hypocrites in this fandom. Another thing we need to remember is that it wasn't just Cap. He saw people roll their eyes and they have probably heard and seen a lot more and not just from this concert. I know I've seen vast assumptions that Clay is tired of her and sick of her and doesn't like her which seems to make folks happy to think that way. I'm actually glad Ethel wrote that letter and I hope she means it - that she will take more care when she's at concert. And I hope that when fans, sitting no where near Ethel, see Clay connect with her..they will sit on their hands, and shut their mouths if they don't like it. You know like I did when he sang Mandy.

Hope I didn't scare away any newbies.

Feel free to discuss if you want and describing the behavior any way you want is fine..but let's be more respectful by using Cap's name than she was with Clay at his own concert.

Thank you bottle for injecting some humor into the convo. Oh and Muski... yeah, let us know how it works....looks kinda tiny heh.

Rohdy, welcome and thanks for your opinion. I will always admit that never haven sat near Ethel gives me no persepctive for those that have. And I can tell you I was more than peeved this past summer concert series with cellcerters and social clubbers sitting behind me in San Diego and Pala..oh and the folks who sang loudy through Listen at Indio..so I would NEVER EVER say those that are bothered by her personally are just wrong. Thanks for speaking up.

[Ansamcw]

My own hope is that for future concerts audience members will limit their participation to what Clay, himself, initiates and then know when that interaction is over. Will it happen? I hope so; I don't want to see Clay feel inhibited or cautious when he reaches out to the audience, but I also don't wish to see 'An Evening with the Audience of Clay Aiken'. So, maybe everyone has learned a little bit more about themselves and it will make for a more enjoyable concert experience for everyone. I can only hope.

And couchie - are you okay?

hee yup couchie is ok...

I really think Clay is the one that determines the type of concert he will have. He made the symphony concerts very interactive. If he wants a more formal concert he will have more production numbers and songs and less banter. NOW the rude people that would shout at clay during poignant moments in his singing...those are the ones I hope would get a clue.

This is a sensitive issue and even though I'm the one who just typed the booing fan's name, my reason was to level what I considered an uneven playing field. I have no desire to get into namecalling and that whole good/ban fan thing. I imagine many of us have had personal 'interactions' with one fan or another on a message board and when we get too 'into' talking about it, we can get off the track---and that track is Clay Aiken, ain't it?

Thanks for this reminder.

yup we allow people to talk about controversial topic in the fandom ...but we do not want to keep getting on and on about specific posters. discussion of behaviors and even mindset and attitudes that disturb us is cool...but we have to remember to be respectful of the people we discuss.

[Couch Tomato]

You know us, we've mixed up racism, yee haws, dancing and glowing teeth as usual....

heee and that's why Iove this board.

[KAndre]

Do I have to be respectful of various airline and car rental employees who piss me off? They have issues!

[Couch Tomato]

Do I have to be respectful of various airline and car rental employees who piss me off? They have issues!

which reminds me I need to read your last write up..couldn't do it when I was paying ten bucks an hour in vegas hee.

Dang the clangela is just hot...I need a new clangela avator..whine whine beg beg heeee

loving all the new blood!!

[KAndre]

And what's wrong with the one rcknrllmom found?

I gotta admit, it made my innards tingle!

[Couch Tomato]

not a blessed thang..hint hint

[Ansamcw]

Welcome Rohdy...thanks for your POV.

I do think Ethel went a bit overboard this concert since I know people that used to be ok with her were also peeved.

I really don't think Clay meant his comment to be accusatory...but I also understand why people would take it that way. The fact is...with Caps opinionated posts that is quite well known all over the fandom...I often wonder where it all comes from and have wondered the same thing as Clay. This is the nature of the message boards...people read your post. Most people will only know you through what you write. When a person has a pattern of behavior on the board it is very difficult to say that is not the real person. So as Muski said...we all have to take responsibility of our post and behavior and realize there are consequences to what you say and do in public. We have to remember...we are all entitled to our opinion...but other people are also entitled to have an opinion about your opinion and about you.

[ldyjocelyn]

And what's wrong with the one rcknrllmom found?

I gotta admit, it made my innards tingle!

It makes more than my innards tingle....heh.

couchie, you do know how to make that picture into an avatar size on Photobucket, right? Look for the place where you upload your pictures to an album -- but before loading the picture, click on "options" next to "max picture size." Select avatar size and then save your selection. THEN upload your picture. (Remember to change your setting back to a more normal size after saving as an avatar size though....)

As for the topic at hand....lots of good responses, and I think I have been nodding in agreement to almost everyone here. If I'm being truly honest, I find this kind of conversation a bit discomforting....and I think it's because if I apply things to my own life, I sometimes can see myself as well. This is a conversation that to me causes a bunch of "inward looking," and that can be very uncomfortable sometimes. I guess I feel that while I don't like the way it happened (booing is simply rude in this instance), Ethel did look inward. I'm not sure if others will.

As far as Clay's role in all this -- I remember KAndre saying that this was a pointed comment. I agree -- and also realize that sometimes a pointed comment needs to be made in order to highlight behaviors. I agree with whomever said that they thought Clay was trying to make light of the situation, but it may have gotten lost because of the pointedness of the comment. But you know what? The comment has also made me THINK. A lot. It seems like it has for others too. So, in a round about way, IMO....

ETA: this is for bottlecap:

YeeHaw!

[KAndre]

Oooooo, ldyj! That's one cowboy I'd like to ride! And I'm owning that statement!

[Ansamcw]

Hee ...he sure had fun with that yeeehaaaww

[atinal]

I guess this situation shows that Clay can sling a little "trout" of his own if he thinks it's needed. I would have said "blue stileto" but somehow it didn't seem to have the same impact.

I love that pic of Clay and Angela. I find it so facinating that a milisecond click of a camera can capture some of these perfect shots.