Politics'R'US

[djs111]

KAndre said:

Saying you don't see one of those parts feels like it lessens me.

aaaaack! I am horribly sorry you feel that way or took it that way.

What I meant is that in the context of being a candidate for the president of the U.S., race or gender doesn't interest me one bit as any sort of qualification or whatever. That's all I meant. I understand that those things mean a lot to others. What I am trying, I guess lamely, to say, is that I did not consider race or gender when thinking of what I want in a president.

I didn't think Hillary was going to be any standard bearer for women everywhere, I just thought she would be a great president. I would have been just as fine with Bill.

I actually hated the cracks in the glass ceiling stuff. Hated it. I want to be PAST it.

I really disengaged fairly early on, when the campaigning got ugly all over the media. I am still shocked that people made fun of her ankles.

In any event, I am not one to even walk across the street for a rally, no matter who it is, I am not even functional in a crowd, I withdraw to almost a catatonic state. I don't get it.

I was always the one in those stupid team build scenarios who would tell my boss Oh Hell no, I am not trekking across the desert with you guys, just leave me a plastic sheet to collect water in, and keep your grubby paws off my compact mirror, and I will wait right here in the wreckage. Just leave a pointer made with rocks in the direction you guys set off in, so I can direct my rescuers that way, and I'll stay here in this nice cozy wrecked airplane. (Consider that spoken just like Wanda Sykes would say it, I had Wanda's attitude before Wanda was born, I think).

Fervent crowds have always scared the crap out of me. No matter what or who they are for. I will be glad when this is all over with.

Clayzorback, my issues with your post were that I felt it was wrong to use Faye's name, and also that stuff like that does not take into account that some people may not like Obama, but just think the Republicans have run the country into the ground for the last eight years, and cannot imagine letting them keep doing so for another four years.

It is not just the candidate, it is the PARTY that determined my vote. No matter what people say about Obama, I consider the Republicans have ruined the country, that MccCain is a hot-headed mess, and that Sarah Palin is not any more intellectually able to run the country than my 13 YO grandson. To vote for them on the basis of my feelings about Obama would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Oh, the few Acorn employees who made up people have been turned in, and it is not like they made up actual VOTES. So what if a lot of new voters got signed up? Are they not supposed to be able to vote?

The shit about telling students they can't vote, about telling Democrats they can wait until tomorrow - that is the usual Republican bullshit.

[playbiller]

Oh, that would be me, Clayzorback - I rarely believe anything I read on the internet and on message boards without some background knowledge or sources. I would be shocked if you believed anything I said without a source, unless it was just a trivial thing. This is the INTERNET - we can say ANYTHING! Questioning things is a good thing, not a bad thing. Only people who have seen it really know if I have a place at the beach, I may not have one but just like to pretend I do.

When it comes to politics, I don't believe the candidates or anyone else bringing information. I check their records. I suppose I could have searched the internet to see if you had talked about Faye e-mailing you before since I didn't remember you mentioning it, but it did not seem all that important. If you think that questioning that was a big deal, you really don't want to know about some of my other political conversations. The people who know me are used to it, I guess other people don't understand that mindset.

[Couch Tomato]

Honestly I think the point people are making is we don't give a shit who sent the letter... that was just an aside. Most of the comments were on the letter itself. This race is too important to people to have some Clay Nation wanna be connections matter one whit - on either side.

I honestly also don't care who people vote for. Everyone has their reasons and a right to support whomever they want. Even Clay's political leanings don't matter to me at all.

I'm so nervous. I have a bottle of wine. I'm going to open it.

[KAndre]

Oddly enough, I'm not stressed - I'm excited. And I'm drinking some Belgium peche lambic! Tasty!

[claytonic]

Down Under, we have devoted huge chunks of television time to live coveratage of the US elections, that's how important these elections are to us. We even have our own "commentary team" who noted, like everyone else, how GW Bush has been conspicuously absent during these elections; not even a word from him asking people to vote for the Republicans. That's how much his credibility has sunk.

Well, it sure looks like those 'psychics' on The View (Halloween show) who said it was going to be very close... were wrong.

Technology is just incredible, the way it has made it so easy to see up-to-the-minute progress and results at the other end of the world.

[Gibby]

Well, my family and I are all parked in front of the TV, each of us on our own laptops. We are all perusing websites with red, blue and gray maps of the U.S., keeping each other updated on the progress of the results.

I'm also very interested in the results of the local referendums and amendments. In Colorado we had an amendment about "when life begins", which if it passes, could bring legal challenges to abortion. And then there's the gay marriage propositions in California, Arizona and Florida, another abortion amendment in South Dakota, and various medical marijuana and stem cell referendums. A lot of interesting issues are being voted on this year!

claytonic, it's interesting to hear that you're following this election so closely Down Under! Is the news coverage looking at how each candidate might effect your relationship with the U.S.?

[Claygasm]

Well, I was a bad citizen. For the first time since I was 18 I didn't vote in a presidential election. I got up too late this morning to go before work and I got out a bit late and frankly was just not motivated enough to drive 15 minutes out of my way to vote for someone I just didn't like much. Not when the last poll had Obama leading in Pennsylvania by 13%. I knew my vote didn't matter.

And I didn't feel guilty about it until muski called to thank me for helping give Obama Pennsylvania and I had to tell her don't thank me - I didn't vote! I think I sensed disappointment in her voice......

I too was a Hillary person and was bitterly disappointed she lost the nomination. But I tried to get to like Obama, but never could. Frankly, the almost blind, cult-like following he has makes me very nervous. Look at the people in Times Square. Half a million in Chicago waiting to just be in his presence. That is just not normal. That kind of blind following is not healthy and it scares me a little.

But he has to be better than McCain and if we can survive 8 years of "W"....

**Sigh** Besides, what choice do I have. He will be the next president and I will just have to deal with the consequences - good or bad. One thing I do know. We didn't get into this mess overnight and we won't get out of it overnight and anyone who thinks we will has definitely drunk the Kool-Aid!

And at least we won't be inundated with all those damn commercials!!!

**Always look on the bright side of life**

[Couch Tomato]

I never thought I'd see the day really. My minor is in African American studies and I have studied the history of Africans in this country. From the middle passage to emancipation and the backwards movement of reconstruction and Jim Crow. I was in South Carolina in 1972 when my dad got sick and we had to sit in a black only doctor's office waiting room. 1972. This is just unbelievable to me.

And now he has his work cut out for him. And it will be tough.

Claygasm. I will say that Obama gave voice to people who have been ignored including the future of this country - our youth. That's not a bad thing. I hope all of the young people that he reached out to will stay involved and committed to their communities and to this country. It won't be easy and it will take time. I'm just happy that after 8 years I get to celebrate on election night.

eeeeeeeeee yes NO MORE ADS!!

[Claygasm]

Claygasm. I will say that Obama gave voice to people who have been ignored including the future of this country - our youth. That's not a bad thing. I hope all of the young people that he reached out to will stay involved and committed to their communities and to this country.

I hope so too. But Bill Clinton engaged the youth back in 1992 and I don't think it lasted....

Me? Cynical?? You betcha!

I hear ya about how amazing it is for an African American man (well technically bi-racial, but that's close enough) being elected to the presidency being a HUGE deal. And I am thrilled our country - at least for now - has gotten over that barrier.

But I wonder how long it will be before a Jew can be elected president? And I wonder how long it will be before a Hispanic can be elected president. I wonder if we will ever see a gay elected president?

And I wonder if I will live long enough to see a woman of any race or religion or sexual orientation elected president.

So many barriers yet to be torn down. For such an advanced nation, we sure do still have a long way to go to become truly free.

[ldyjocelyn]

Baby steps. That's all I can hope for.

But I also have hopes for every single one of your scenarios CG. They will happen.

[claytonic]

claygasm

But I tried to get to like Obama, but never could. Frankly, the almost blind, cult-like following he has makes me very nervous. Look at the people in Times Square. Half a million in Chicago waiting to just be in his presence. That is just not normal. That kind of blind following is not healthy and it scares me a little.

This situation has come about because people just need something to believe in. When people are so down and out and someone new and fresh offers a change that represents HOPE and a light at the end of the tunnel, it is absolutely human behavior. It happened in Australia in 1972 when the most controversial liberal Prime Minister (Gough Whitlam) was elected in 1972 after an incredible 23 year stretch of conservative government. The slogan was "It's Time", and it had an incredible campaign, including a TV ad that featured well-known faces in the entertainment/arts industry. http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vqMCZBjvmD4&...feature=related

Obama's "Change" slogan is so very reminiscent of it. IMO, Prime Minister Whitlam changed too much too quickly, and it fell apart. But he still has many fans, he brought about free education, including university, and you have no idea how many stay-at-home moms started their free psychology degree then. (But the free education and a number of other expensive iimplementations brought the government some serious economic problems. )

claygasm

**Sigh** Besides, what choice do I have. He will be the next president and I will just have to deal with the consequences - good or bad. One thing I do know. We didn't get into this mess overnight and we won't get out of it overnight and anyone who thinks we will has definitely drunk the Kool-Aid!

Exactly. But only those who believe in miracles and see Obama as their messiah will be disappointed when problems aren't solved overnight.

Gibby

claytonic, it's interesting to hear that you're following this election so closely Down Under! Is the news coverage looking at how each candidate might effect your relationship with the U.S.?

I haven't seen that discussed but I could have missed it as I am not able to give it my undivided attention. Quite honestly, GW has angered a lot of Australians, but we are angrier that our PM at the time kowtowed to GW over the Iraq situation. Many of us feel that NZ and Canada had the backbone to say NO, and we could have as well. That idiot Bush "you're with us or against us" quip made me so mad. I was dead against the Iraq war, but that does not mean I am against the USA. Unfortunately, the USA has been seen as a bully for a long time, and the Iraq attack simply made it worse. You know, there are so many people alive today who suffered the consequences of our involvement in the Vietnam war. So many lives lost in vain... and yes, it was in vain because it seems nothing was learned from it in terms of how easy it is to start a war, and how difficult it is to end one.

[claytonic]

I am more fond of America now than at anytime that George Bush was president.

- Bob Carr, prominent Australian politician, on hearing the 2008 American election results.

Congratulations to Barack Obama and everyone who contributed to his victory.

I just hope that no one expects miracles. He's human, and getting a massive nation out of a quagmire isn't going to be an overnight task. May the universe keep him safe and strong.

[KAndre]

True dat, claytonic.

What I would like to hear from those disappointed in the election results, is what it would take in the next couple of years (because I know many are really just bothered by his lack of experience and the only thing that can fix that is time) to make you feel sort of OK with the new administration. One of my major problems with the last eight years (and the Reagan years, to be honest) is that the people in power made it perfectly clear that they felt they has a "mandate" and anyone with a different point of view could just drop dead. I didn't feel that way with Bush Sr., but he seemed to be the exception to the rule. They didn't even talk about people would disagreed. Now, I don't know if Barack will walk the talk (I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until he proves otherwise), but frankly I think being biracial honestly helps him so much with that....

I really would like to see what, if anything, he said policy-wise, that the disappointed could get on board with. Not to make you like him (some things just aren't meant to be) but would make him a workable president in your eyes.

[djs111]

KAndre, I am not one who is disappointed that a Democrat is in!!!!!!

But interesting question about what it would take to make people think Obama is a workable president - really, does it matter? So many people hated Bush, and hated what he did, hell, the bailout was just a few weeks ago, and many people hated THAT - and it makes not one teensy tiny bit of difference to what goes on in Washington. Not an iota or a jot. What people think of a president once he is in office only counts every four years, really.

[Couch Tomato]

One of the things I like KAndre and am hoping for is that he really has a different world view. That he will reach out in bi partisanship not only in this country but actually looks at the rest of the world in a diferent way. He was raised by whites - his father was not African American but African - his sister is half Asia. He grew up with Muslim kids so doesn't automatically think TERRORIST. I'm hoping the US vs THEM (when US didn't even mean ALL Americans) days is over.

Am I still cynical? Yep about government. But a little less so about some other things.

ETA: Found my answer... dang info is always right at the fingertips isn't it.

[annabear]

What I would like to hear from those disappointed in the election results, is what it would take in the next couple of years (because I know many are really just bothered by his lack of experience and the only thing that can fix that is time) to make you feel sort of OK with the new administration.

I wouldn't say I'm disappointed - I certainly don't feel we could have survived another 4 years of the crap we've been living with for the past 8 years. I guess I'm just bothered that "feeling sort of OK with the new administration" is all I feel - OK.

At this point, I'm not sure what it would take to make me feel more than that. There's so much red tape and bs that surrounds everything in government that even the best laid plans often get lost in the muck.

I am glad that so many seem to be so inspired. I hope that sticks.

[KAndre]

Yeah, actually I think it does matter. Change does happen...the Washington of today really isn't the Washington of even 20 years ago...and the people do have influence...one of the problems I think was that TPTB concentrated too much of what some people wanted that other people hated...I'm thinking about stuff that just about everybody wants and the only difference is in the details.

I know I can live with OK, because for the last 4 years, I've come close to hating Bush and anything he touched. Anything. The man couldn't tell me that the sun rose in the east and set in the west, to the point that things that the Republican party might have had a point on was totally tainted.

OK is fine, really! I was OK with Bush Sr. - I think he did an excellent job with the Gulf War, he was good on foreign policy, thought his domestic policy sucked (he was right with the "voodoo economics" Shoulda stuck with it). And being OK with him, I listened and supported him where I thought he was right. Where he was wrong, I was fine to agree to disagree. I wouldn't piss on the current Bush if his head was on fire and he would pay me a million dollars to do it.

[claytonic]

Some interesting facts:

Obama's sister is half white-American, half Indonesian, and a Buddhist.

She is married to a Chinese Canadian.

OH, and her name is Maya, yup, named after Maya Angelou ....Oprah's mentor.

Fascinating, huh?

Obama's tiny family covers so many cultures and religious traditions.

ETA : http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...1729524,00.html

Check out this link about Obama's mother. Don't miss the series of family tree pics.

HE had an amazing mother.

[djs111]

I wouldn't piss on the current Bush if his head was on fire and he would pay me a million dollars to do it.

Oh, hey, I would take the money and run! I would consider it my bailout.

[playbiller]

Am I disappointed after the election, no. I was disappointed in the heavy handedness of the primaries. Years ago, I thought Obama would be a good Presidential candidiate, my regret is that he ran so soon. I wanted him to be a seasoned politician before he ran, eight years in the future with political connections cemented in the party and with opposition colleages. I fear he will be learning some hard lessons on the job as others before him had done, Carter and Kennedy.

I can see where he saw his chance and grabbed it and it worked. I do believe that the economy was what really swung this election and I can't help but wonder if TPTB RNC didn't want to win because they wanted to hand off this economic mess. Right now we need an economic visionary and there was not one running at any point, so that was not going to happen anyway. So far we have an interesting person picked for the transition team, lets see what happens, choosing good people for advisors will make me a happy person.

Earlier this year, I was given serious beat downs by friends who supported Obama and I really had a hard time overcoming their annoying rudeness, Iadmit it really turned me off. See, I was supposed to swear fealty to Obama if he won the primary, but they would vote republican if anyone else won the democratic primary and they said the nastiest stuff about the other candidates, way over the line kind of stuff. It was so out of character for these people, my friends tend to be low key, I did start believing in Koolaid.

[Couch Tomato]

As I said earlier...I didn't really follow the primaries other than to cast my vote so I was surprised by the acrimony in the party on all sides. My mom was furious at the Clintons so yes I know emotions ran high. And I remember how angry Clinton supporters were, many threatening to vote for McCain. So even as I grabbed my big ass bottle of wine last night, and after hearing the pollsters for weeks, I still didn't quite believe. One of those things that made me a little less cynical was hearing that no matter how hard they tried to get those Hillary supporters even up to the last day of campaigning, McCain didn't. That gives me a lot of hope that a lot of these other divisions can be healed.

[djs111]

I believe when push came to shove, Hillary supporters could not bear to vote Republican.

I still can't believe people would actually vote to prolong the last eight republican years for another 4.

Yes, for a lot of voters it was the candidates, but for a lot of voters it was the Party. It amazed me how many did not consider the party when looking at damage done already.

If McCain had won I don't think Cheney would have even moved out of his office. Just give Palin a little cottage where she could see the White House from her porch.

[Desertrose]

That's right, "when push came to shove this Hilary supporter could not bear to vote Republican." I was so upset when Hilary lost the nomination. I ended up voting for the Party because I could not fathom 4 more years of damage.

But now I am so happy that it is finally true that "any American" can grow up to be president if they so aspire. We were always taught that in school, and so far it had just been a fairy tale. I am glad that it happened in my lifetime, and I got to experience it. With a Democratic Congress, Obama should be able to do a good job. He has a natural talent for inspiring people. With the mess we have now, it will not be easy. So I hope that he gets really good people in his cabinet, and surprises the heck of all the disbelievers.

Do I still want Hilary to be president some day? Heck yes! I am not getting any younger, so I hope I get to see her become the first female president before I croak. We were the last to get the right to vote, so what else is new? For now, I am fully supporting our President elect Obama.

[liney23]

If McCain had won I don't think Cheney would have even moved out of his office. Just give Palin a little cottage where she could see the White House from her porch.

djs... BWAH!!!

My friends and I were talking about this tonight, Desertrose... we have been sending healing energy to the country and now will send energy that the "just right" people come to Obama and are willing to serve, and who can come up with innovative and workable solutions to our problems.

The first step has been taken, but the path ahead is rocky. Obama has an aura of confidence that he can do this and seems to have his head on straight about how (getting the right advisors). He is inspirational, so Congress better listen cause I honestly believe that the American people have had it with Congress putting themselves first and the constituents last. If they don't help raise this country up, they'll be gone. That's my vision and I'm sticking to it!

[djs111]

I honestly believe that the American people have had it with Congress putting themselves first and the constituents last. If they don't help raise this country up, they'll be gone.

All Americans can say is You better stop that right now! Or I will vote against you in three or four years!!!!!! If I remember!!!!! But I usually vote along party lines, so maybe not!!!! But, watch it!!!!!!! That's why Congress gets to be ineffective and or crooked for years, they only need to concentrate on raising money and getting reelected. Or covering up. There is a lot of complicity there, usually it is called "working together". We need term limits, seriously. These people keep on truckin' no matter who is president.

For better or for worse, though, we have no "vote of confidence" or any other mechanism to rid ourselves of dishonest or useless government at any level. Just criminal proceedings - IF someone can press charges against persons with almost unlimited power - or impeachment. Which IMO is useless and toothless, it is the government pretending to police itself, but has only been used as a political weapon. This is how we got to hear Pelosi saying to impeach Bush and Cheney was too much trouble.

Hence Clinton got reamed for, basically, lying about a BJ, but shrub lied and broke all kinds of laws with absolute impunity.

Vote people out? Ted Stevens got convicted of a felony. And he still ran for office, and as far as I can tell he is merely being told he should not try to go back to DC if he wins! In fact, this is mostly just being seen as a lucky break for Palin, as she can now appoint herself in his place and get to DC without having to run for office. She is "qualified" now, just think of all the states she has visited (or flown over) and people she has had photo opportunities with! And she was on SNL!!!! What a resume!

This, from the Washington Post yesterday, is a perfect example -

A little more than a week after being found guilty on seven federal felony charges, Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens ® was clinging to a slim lead today over Anchorage Mayor Mark Begich (D) with thousands of votes yet to be counted from Tuesday's election.

If his lead holds up, Stevens would be the first convicted felon to win election to the Senate. Four other senators convicted of felonies resigned or left office at the end of their terms, according to the Senate historian's office.

Stevens, 84, the longest-serving Republican senator in U.S. history, sought a seventh full term despite his Oct. 27 conviction in a federal corruption trial in Washington on charges of failing to properly report gifts worth more than $250,000. He is challenging the verdict on grounds of "prosecutorial misconduct." Going into the election, polls showed Stevens trailing Begich, 46, by four to seven percentage points.

Senate rules do not expressly forbid felons from serving and voting in the chamber. But if Stevens continues to serve while appealing his conviction, the Senate ethics committee could hold hearings on expelling him. Expulsion would require a two-thirds vote of all sitting senators.

The last senator convicted of a felony, Harrison A. Williams (D-N.J.), remained in office nearly 10 months after his 1981 conviction in the Abscam scandal, finally resigning just before a floor vote to expel him.

The last senator to face such a predicament was Bob Packwood (R-Ore.), who was accused of sexual misconduct with female aides. Packwood resigned in September 1995 when the ethics committee recommended his expulsion.

The committee chairman at that time was Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), now the Senate minority leader, who said last week that Stevens would be expelled if he failed to overturn his conviction on appeal.

According to an Oct. 22 report from the Congressional Research Service, however, both the House and Senate have traditionally refrained from bringing expulsion charges if a lawmaker wins reelection after his misconduct is already known by the voters.

And ineffectiveness or whatever? Can only be addressed every few years, during which the congressperson can deal with impunity.

The whole system reeks - like the money spent on running for office. If McCain had gotten so much money privately that he could afford to not be bound by the strictures of public money, and then reversed his word on that subject, there would have been howls of no fair from Democrats, IMO. That system is broken, and yes I believe the presidency can be bought, just saying it was for a good cause doesn't change that. Other countries have more rules about this, ours just rewards big money, no matter how it is gotten, and the media.

The FDA no longer works for the people, they just prosecuted someone for testing all of their cattle for mad cow disease, and advertising as such - because it gave them an unfair advantage over other producers.. I could understand this if all the other beef producers sued, but the FDA???? WTF???? And, mind you, it is perfectly OK to market beef as organically pesticide and drug free, you just can't say you tested it ALL for a killer disease.

AND many other countries do not import American beef because of ineffective and random testing. The FDA says testing all the cattle will drive the cost up by 10 cents a pound. Big deal. And also, those meat producers don't test anything but healthy-looking cattle.

But, the FDA protects profits, not people. They get appointed or whatever, at the top, can't even vote them out.

I do not consider getting 52% or 53% of the total vote any sort of mandate any more than I considered that Bush had a mandate, nor do I see the "uniter" thing at all, I see getting new people to vote, though. I see congress afraid to vote no because of possible increased public scrutiny, not because they want to do the right thing. Should be interesting to see what actually happens now!

Hmmmm....I think I had better just be done with politics for a few years! It ALL seems hypocritical to me! I will just be in a dark bar somewhere, with Ron.