# 10 It isn't so easy to get your knickers off when they're in a knot.

[lightmyfire]

The term "payola" is over used and over rated ...JMO. If radio doesn't embrace the single..it is dead.

And there isn't any amount of so called $upport from the label and management that can change the wave. JMO.

And the amount of the fines paid by the big guns due to Spitzer is evidence that illegal "payola" doesn't amount to much...JMO.

[PuddinsJoy]

Carrie, I didn't like on American Idol...thought she had the personality of a turnip.

Saw her at our State Fair last year and she was still working the turnip angle . . . but the look was working with the audience...she'll be a big radio and video star. This year we get Bucky - geesh - so glad we got Clay when we did. Wichita got Daughtry in May - awesome show - I like him a lot.

I had no favorite from AI3 (maybe LaToya), Bo from 4 (I'm still pulling for him), the hair from 5 (oh? a contestant - then Daughtry I guess), and yeah, I'm a Blaker Girl /(snerk) from 6

I saw one IT show and really enjoyed whats-her-name-who-came-on-before-Clay (j/k) - it was the 2nd to the last show (KS City) and I'm sure her stage presence was more polished - happy and waving and actually looking at us. I don't remember the bass bothering me but I do remember her really powerful vocals - I don't remember yelling at all. Loved slow Beautiful Disaster on the piano - thinking all along (duh) of Clay. Haven't seen her since then - haven't needed to since I could hear her on the radio every 2 mins. I loved all the angsty songs on Breakaway - the videos not so much - except the one where she wore Clay's fedora

and I see that Kim Locke's "Change" is in the top 5 on the AC charts - cool! Her sales are poor - but she's got huge radio play. How many get both anymore?

Edited June 13, 2007 by PuddinsJoy

[JennaZ]

Some people would say that its just that Kelly was fighting Clive so he is just petty. I would agree if the product was good. But from what I heard from this CD...Clive was right in pushing for professional help.

Great point, Ansamcw. And like lightmyfire, I also believe that money can't buy everything. There seems to be this widespread relief that any song can become a hit if enough money is committed to it. Payments might help increase exposure, but at some point, songs have to sell themselves. "Never Again," quite frankly, is just not a very catchy song.

Yes, it's interesting, Puddins, that K-Lo gets airplay but doesn't sell huge numbers.

[Couch Tomato]

Awww couchie don't make us move yet...I will tie it in with Clay, I promise....

I really was joking. Keep on talking. I think the marketing/management/label aspect is fine for main. If ya'll start going into great detail of her songs, hair, pants heee then I'll just do this. :trink3:

So there's not commerical and then there's bad. So for those who have heard her album, it this a good project that just won't appeal to the masses or is it just bad. I can see Clive not wanting it to go forward for either reason. But to me Kelly is more sympathetic if it's one over the other.

With Clay, I have no idea what his project was like. Was it genius but not commercial or was it bad. Of course if you're a Clay fan it was either very good or it was Clay's vision so it's supposed to stand. If I take a step back and think about Just You, Back For More, A Thousand Days and Tears Run Dry.... songs we have actually heard and know he was considering for the album... my first reaction is I'd love it cuz it's Clay. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Tears Run Dry, more than any song on MoaM. Just You I can't even remember. Back for More I like. ATD..I liked it but I love many of the MoaM songs so much more. If Clay took these songs to Clive I wonder what he thought. I also wonder what the album as a whole was like. Did Clay go in a more folk or country direction with the Nashville crew? I really hope one day we hear the songs that Clay and Jaymes presented to the label. I think it will be fascinating. And hell I want every song he recorded for MoaM too.

How on earth do we break into the RCA vault?

Muski, stop torturing your daughter!!

[muskifest]

Interrupting this serious discussion of the music industry for this breaking news! Carrie just excitedly ran out here to join me on the patio, desperately clutching her school yearbook. She wanted to go through it with me page by page to point out this girl and that guy. She then showed me the guy she "likes".

I immediately said, "Omigod! If he had glasses on he'd look like Clay did when he was that age!"

She dropped her head down until her chin was on her chest and she said, "Oh, Maaaaaaaaahhhhhhmmmmm! You ruined it!" and then just shook her head in dismay.

BWAH!

But the little boy really does look like young Clay! Red hair, freckles, skinny....hee! Like mother, like daughter.

AND as I turned the page, I came across a picture of Carrie and a boy who's gone through school with her and who, I know, is a real charmer (from my days as a substitute teacher, etc.) and clown. Turns out that he and Carrie won the "Most Outgoing" in the 6th grade at her school!

Kewl....

Okay...back to business at hand..

(I wish )

[luckiest1]

I just got home from the longest baseball game ever in the history of the world....or at least that's what it felt like. We had a 30 minute delay waiting for some umpires to show up, and then the coaches got into a 20 minute argument with the umps in the 6th inning. OMG just let the kids play!!!!!

I'm not particularly fond of Kelly. I attended two shows on the IT but I think I spent most of Kelly's set perusing the merchandise. My biggest problem with her is that she doesn't have much stage presence...plus the fact that she's on the radio every 2 seconds, and I'm sick to death of hearing her. I haven't heard her new album except for the song she performed on IGB so I don't have an opinion on that.

I don't really follow any other idols but Clay....unless you count Billy Klippert, who came third on the first season of Canadian Idol. I've seen him a few times at small clubs in the area. His voice is killer. And I have both of KLo's albums on my iPod. I loved Ruben on AI2 but haven't liked much of what he's done since.

Edited June 13, 2007 by luckiest1

[jmh123]

Y'all have to see this. the ABC's of Clay Aiken. The ABC's are in English. Clay is Quirky, Religious, and Splendid. Hot, Intelligent, and Jovial. And XYZ? "eXamine Your Zipper." BWAH!! It's divided over several blogs. Scroll down almost to the end of the page, to the blog that has ABCDEFG and work your way back up. The pictures are perfectly chosen. So clever and cute!

newclayaiken blog - The ABC's of Clay Aiken

[Ansamcw]

Some people would say that its just that Kelly was fighting Clive so he is just petty. I would agree if the product was good. But from what I heard from this CD...Clive was right in pushing for professional help.

Great point, Ansamcw. And like lightmyfire, I also believe that money can't buy everything. There seems to be this widespread relief that any song can become a hit if enough money is committed to it. Payments might help increase exposure, but at some point, songs have to sell themselves. "Never Again," quite frankly, is just not a very catchy song.

Yes, it's interesting, Puddins, that K-Lo gets airplay but doesn't sell huge numbers.

Oh I definitely agree with this... I do think to get a real hit it has to be a combination of both ...payola and a song that connects with the audience. I think Payola is just basic if you want your song heard...then how far you get depends on the reaction of the audience and how much the company wants to pay. I believe the better the reaction of the audience less payola...if it does not click initially...the label has to do a some pushing. There comes a time that the pushing or promo dollars no longer translates to sales so they let it go. This case...the fact that Kelly had so many hits...she became a format artist...means they would play her initially because the audience anticipates it. But after the initial play, RCA needs to do more pushing OR the song needs to get really strong positive reaction. I don;t think NA got either so it stalled and didn;t even get to top 20. I hear her new single is getting poor airplay considering its a Kelly song.

Couchie... I am trying to be objective...its obvious there were some tracks where she tried to sound different or to do something new with the production. But most of them sounded derivative. It would be ok if the songs had good hooks or melodies...but they usually were atonal. I can take that too if the song had clever lyrics...but they were mostly cliched and disjointed or repetitive. I thinks she has 1 or 2 that are radio friendly but I wouldn't call them hits either. This is why I think her manager did her a disservice. I think she was not ready and she should've compromised...

I think Clay was faced with this dilemma and instead of putting his foot down he cooperated and in the end RCA gave him time to work on the album and came up with a great album. I do suspect that in return he is getting more leeway for the next cd.

[Ansamcw]

Y'all have to see this. the ABC's of Clay Aiken. The ABC's are in English. Clay is Quirky, Religious, and Splendid. Hot, Intelligent, and Jovial. And XYZ? "eXamine Your Zipper." BWAH!! It's divided over several blogs. Scroll down almost to the end of the page, to the blog that has ABCDEFG and work your way back up. The pictures are perfectly chosen. So clever and cute!

newclayaiken blog - The ABC's of Clay Aiken

so cool to see that...is that from Korea???? Can;t wait ill he visits Asia..they will love him there.

[Sally]

I have mixed feelings about Kelly’s album problems. I can understand her desire for free artistic expression, but everything costs something…especially in the music business. Does the label owe her one after selling a bazillion albums and making them lots of money?...Probably, but the fans are not obligated to buy something they don’t like. Who is she working for? Ultimately, who pays the bills?

I’m a photographer/graphic artist who worked for many years creating projects in line with my company’s and the client’s wishes. Now I’m retired and have the luxury of creating work that fulfills my own vision and freely expresses what I want to say.

Today, I turn down all job offers. Sure the money would come in handy, but for me, the sacrifice is too great. I feel like my many years in the profession gives me the right to experiment and grow in ways I never could before.

Kelly is very young, with lots of lessons yet to learn, this may just be one of them.

[bottlecap]

Kelly is very young, with lots of lessons yet to learn, this may just be one of them.

You know, that's the impression I've had of Kelly too. She just seems very naive. "I hope the ring you gave her turns her finger green"? Not lyrics written by a particularly mature songwriter, I think. The songs of Kelly's that appealed to me were the ones I could scream along to in the car, like "Miss Independent" and "Since You've Been Gone". This Amy Lee Lite stuff? Not digging it so much.

[luckiest1]

Y'all have to see this. the ABC's of Clay Aiken. The ABC's are in English. Clay is Quirky, Religious, and Splendid. Hot, Intelligent, and Jovial. And XYZ? "eXamine Your Zipper." BWAH!! It's divided over several blogs. Scroll down almost to the end of the page, to the blog that has ABCDEFG and work your way back up. The pictures are perfectly chosen. So clever and cute!

newclayaiken blog - The ABC's of Clay Aiken

This is very cool! Thanks for bringing it over. "O" was cute! Now, if we just had someone to translate the text of it......

O/T: I was intrigued by why the Traveling Wilburys would be at #1 on Amazon this week, so I checked it out, and apparently they have released a 2 CD plus 1 DVD deluxe edition of their stuff, complete with 2 bonus tracks per CD. Just a heads up for the George Harrison fans!

3 weeks until the start of the Tour!!!! :Tour3: :TourExcite:

Edited June 13, 2007 by luckiest1

[KAndre]

Anyhoo....funny you should mention Linda Ronstadt, GG. I've always loved her and remember how I first felt when she put out that crooner album with Nelson Riddle. I thought she was going to KILL her career! It was so different! Then she sang on Broadway in the Pirates of Penzance (sp?) and I couldn't BELIEVE she'd go an operatic route (She was amazing---what a vocal range!). Then she did smokey blues "Round Midnight" album and I thought "OMG, she's a goner."...Then she did two albums in SPANISH, for crying out loud---a kind of mariachi music in honor of her father's Mexican heritage. Then she did an album with Dolly Parton and Emmilou Harris and I thought, "Shit! She's going country!"...then...

Well, you get my drift. She's such a stud!

This is what I see for Clay---he's so freakin' talented and he's his own person (like Linda--God, the mean things that have been said about her! Slams about her weight, about her 'pop' generic sound, AND about the fact that she doesn't write her own songs, e tc.), so I could very easily see him following his personal preferences in music, tweaking it now and then here and there, venturing and exploring and taking risks...

Hell, didn't she start out singing covers? The horror!

Hmmm, ranking our favorites of Clay's songs....interesting problem...ISY is always at the top of my list but I'll have to think about the rest...

Kelly I'm afraid is just another pop princess/rocker chick I don't actually listen to...just totally indifferent.

In just three weeks, the eHP will be boot-scootin' our way to Frisco! Yee Haw!

[Claygasm]

Kelly IS very young. I think people forget that because she has seemingly been around for so long. Of course she has lessons to learn. Personally I think its when you stop learning those lessons that you are doomed - no matter how old you are and no matter how long you have been in the business.

I haven't heard the whole album (I know it was leaked but have no idea where it is), but NA didn't bother me. I actually didn't mind it when I saw her on Kimmel singing it. IMO, whatever the result of this album, the most it will be is a bump in the road for her. She is too talented for it to do her in. Most artists have at least one bad or not so good album.

Hopefully she will now surround herself with better people and learn from her mistakes. Its all part of the growing process.

Interrupting this serious discussion of the music industry for this breaking news! Carrie just excitedly ran out here to join me on the patio, desperately clutching her school yearbook. She wanted to go through it with me page by page to point out this girl and that guy. She then showed me the guy she "likes".

I immediately said, "Omigod! If he had glasses on he'd look like Clay did when he was that age!"

She dropped her head down until her chin was on her chest and she said, "Oh, Maaaaaaaaahhhhhhmmmmm! You ruined it!" and then just shook her head in dismay.

BWAH!

Hee! I can just see her face when you said that!

O/T: I was intrigued by why the Traveling Wilburys would be at #1 on Amazon this week, so I checked it out, and apparently they have released a 2 CD plus 1 DVD deluxe edition of their stuff, complete with 2 bonus tracks per CD. Just a heads up for the George Harrison fans!

luckiest1 - I heard about this. You can also download the whole thing, including the video, at iTunes, but I plan to buy the real thing so I can stare at my George better! I read where this re-release was something Olivia Harrison wanted. The original CDs have been out of print for years (I have them, but that isn't stopping me from buying these!). I really want this!

Hmmmm. I have a birthday coming up next month. Can we say present???

In just three weeks, the eHP will be boot-scootin' our way to Frisco! Yee Haw!

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!! That means in 3 weeks I will be leaving on a jet plane to meet up with muski (on her birthday.... ) in Dallas and then meeting the eHP and, most importantly, doing Clay!! Woo the hell hoo!!

And then on to Houston and I get to meet ladyj! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

I am so psyched about this - and all the concerts!! :Tour3: :TourExcite:

[luckiest1]

luckiest1 - I heard about this. You can also download the whole thing, including the video, at iTunes, but I plan to buy the real thing so I can stare at my George better! I read where this re-release was something Olivia Harrison wanted. The original CDs have been out of print for years (I have them, but that isn't stopping me from buying these!). I really want this!

Oh, cool. I think I'll go the iTunes route, if it isn't too expensive. All I'm really after is the DVD portion, and the bonus tracks. I already have both of the original CDs. When I downloaded the latest Macca album, I got all the album artwork in a .pdf file, so I'll still get my George, too.

[jmh123]

so cool to see that...is that from Korea???? Can;t wait ill he visits Asia..they will love him there.

Japan - cute isn't it?

[Ansamcw]

I have mixed feelings about Kelly’s album problems. I can understand her desire for free artistic expression, but everything costs something…especially in the music business. Does the label owe her one after selling a bazillion albums and making them lots of money?...Probably, but the fans are not obligated to buy something they don’t like. Who is she working for? Ultimately, who pays the bills?

I’m a photographer/graphic artist who worked for many years creating projects in line with my company’s and the client’s wishes. Now I’m retired and have the luxury of creating work that fulfills my own vision and freely expresses what I want to say.

Today, I turn down all job offers. Sure the money would come in handy, but for me, the sacrifice is too great. I feel like my many years in the profession gives me the right to experiment and grow in ways I never could before.

Kelly is very young, with lots of lessons yet to learn, this may just be one of them.

Very wise...I totally agree. And I do think she will still sell at least double platinum so I don;t think she will totally tank. This happens to a lot of artist. It happened to Nelly Furtado...her second CD she experiment with all kinds of sounds from her heritage. I heard it was really good but was a flop commercially. Now she goes totally commercial with her third. Avril also went to a dark and more mature theme for her second album. I belive she still sold 2M but totally under performed compared to her debut CD.

Yup ... Kelly is really talented and she got enough cred as a singer that this won't really hurt her career in the long run. Anyway, who knows...this CD may still perform beyond everyone's expectation with regards to sales and critic reviews. Maybe now that Kelly disassociated herself with her manager they suddenly find promo money for radio play. The songs on her CD are not totally bad...just not good or exceptional. If she did this to prove she is s good songwriter..I don't think is does that.

so how is OFCMB going? Is it back to its old self???

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Frisco is coming!!!!

started walking this week...need to get in shape if I am going to keep up with the California peeps.

Can't wait!!!

[luckiest1]

So far OFCMB is reminding me of that old Barney song.......I love you, you love me, we're a happy family......how long can that possibly last?

I finally got my Asheville tickets in the mail this week. They're v.v. pretty. Too bad they're also sold. I won't know my exact seats until I arrive at the hotel and pick up my package on Aug. 11th.

Wheeee! I did a quick count, and I only have to sit here and pretend to work for 20 more days before my first concert in Syracuse. I think I should put a countdown up on my wall...... :Tour3:

[keepingfaith]

Interesting that with all the predictions of No. 1, a huge built-in, longtime fanbase, iTunes bonuses, tons of publicity, and great reviews .... Paul McCartney's Memory Almost Full debuted at No. 2 with 162,640, second to .... T-Pain? Who in God's creation is T-Pain?

Makes Clay's ATDW debut look absolutely stunning in retrospect!

[Clayzorback]

Thanks lightmyfire and Ansamcw for responding to my questions.

I agree that payola only gets you so far and that some people put too much importance in it. The label could pay for a #1 spot for any single, by anybody, but it has to be a good song and connect with mainstream listeners. Fans pay the bills. So you can either listen to those in the business that know more than you do, starting out, or you can be stubborn and stick to your guns. Just be prepared if your vision isn't what listeners want. JMO *G*

So far OFCMB is reminding me of that old Barney song.......I love you, you love me, we're a happy family......how long can that possibly last?

Not long I hope. Hee

luckiest I agree. The OFC is so full of fluff, fluff, and more fluff. It is a pleasant change from all the detrimental conspiracy crap, that was going on, though. However it is also a bit boring, and insincere sounding. I hope content returns to the board with civil dialogue by some smart new posters and not by the same few that live on the board. I noticed that landoflakes started a nice thread. I miss reading her posts.

Ok. Another drive by post by Clayzorback.

[keepingfaith]

Ok. Another drive by post by Clayzorback.

Where you headed, Clayzor??

Regarding the OFCMB, the first couple of days have seemed odd to me .... like a Stepford Board or the "one extreme to another" syndrome. I hope the pendulum does settle to a golden mean, but no holding of breath! In reflecting on Clay's blog, I'm thinking Clay may feel the need to hear outside voices ... not from family and friends whose opinions he must know quite well ... not his bosses or his employees ... not yes people or no people ... but the full-blown fandom of diverse opinions from all ages, backgrounds, influences and musical preferences. When a broad agreement forms in a group like this, it's got to be worth consideration, as long as the premise is not false or skewed.

Edited June 13, 2007 by keepingfaith

[Claygasm]

Hey play! Just read your post over at the CH and since I can't post there, I want to post here a big fat WORD!

Great post - and I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Clayzorback]

keepingfaith, I just had a few PM's to answer first, and now I am going shopping at the mall. Headed to Dillards. I neeeeeds to find a present for a special boy. Love the Clay Aiken or bust car. LOL

TaTa for now.............. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

First I have to go read play's post at Ch.............

[muskifest]

Interesting that with all the predictions of No. 1, a huge built-in, longtime fanbase, iTunes bonuses, tons of publicity, and great reviews .... Paul McCartney's Memory Almost Full debuted at No. 2 with 162,640, second to .... T-Pain? Who in God's creation is T-Pain?

Makes Clay's ATDW debut look absolutely stunning in retrospect!

keepingfaith....you said a mouthful...

er...

uh...

yeah...moving along, heh....It's a bit early to start that, huh?

Anyhoo....the first line I bolded still has me :lmaosmiley-1: . Ain't that the truth, though?

And the second thing I bolded has me shaking my head and rolling my eyes and saying "Amen! can I hear a witness?" I mean, for crying out loud! Clay's CD debuted the same week as Justin Timberlake's, right? Or the week right after or something? and he still sold over 200,000 copies that first week....

And yet....yet....

Oh, hell....WTF? Clay seems at peace with life right now, so who the heck am I to angst over him and his career if he's happy?

I'll answer that. I'm just a mature woman who wants to take him home with her (when the hubby, kids and dog aren't there)...no, wait....that's icky. I'm just a mature, juicy woman who wants to kidnap him and...crap! that's worse.....let's see. I'm just a mature, juicy, experienced woman and....

[playbiller]

Well - we know something that Clay has changed that fans complained about

1. JNT 05 he changed from Black to white suits (or tea white)

2. In the NAT, he added Still the one to pick up the act.

There are probably other times as well.Sometimes he listens, other times he does not - like the Tears run dry fans that hatted it, while he ignored the spinning ball remarks and seems to be in your face about it. I guess this shows why it is important to get your self heard when it comes to these kind of opinion. If you love a song, jump into the middle of a song hate rant!

I wonder if he is amused when people figure things out and they are Waaaaaaay off.

Kelly is only 25? (I think she is very close to 26)

Excuse me, by that time

1)I was married, dealing with alcoholics at work, alcoholics at home,

2)having a company go bankrupt on me and the bank took the direct deposit check of one months of my salary back out,

3) I had car payments and rent due and then my husband got run over by a car, after my insurance got cancelled retroactively (company did not pay) and I had to pay those bills and finally, 4)

I was informed I owed federal taxes the company also took from my salary and id not pay the government. Thecompany in charge of records ignored me - they said I moved, I had not, I had to track them down and sit in their office to get a w2.

4)When I ws a little older, a pro-Castor storefront ws set u next door in a cuban neighborhood. It took three days before someone blew it up and took out all our windows.

5) I worked 2 40+ hour jobs and then came home to tend to my husband and his aralized left arm (he was left handed) and the two broken legs, I had to carry this huge guy to the bathroom and enpty the bottles he peed in during the day when I was working.

6) One of my 40+ hour jobs was in a service bureau and one evening, a swat team came in to arrest everyone in the building for drug running (One nice cop let me go because it said to arrest all the men and it was pretty obvious that I was horrified and not involved) This was the same job where I had a sexual pervert stalker who would leave porno in my locked desk along with "toys".

That ws just part of my life then, don't even try to ask me about the guy who said he had the right to rape me becuase my wedding ring ws not visible - I cut him to poieces.

At 18 Kelly moved to LA, she worked as a waitress and hung out at music offices playig her music for them suits to hear, Supposedly, fielded job offers while supporting herself as a successful back up singer. She may be young, but unless she is really stupid, she should have seen what she was doing. As to the never been in love, I think she stolet hat from Clay. She did speak of being in love before.