#34: So, how about that Clay Aiken?

[muskifest]

Until he starts singing with his penis, though, it's a non-issue for me.

Dang.

He can SING with that beautiful humongous thang, too?

[laughn]

I never expected Clay to ever give us a "heads up" about his personal life; I always figured we would hear after the fact...he would do an interview and suddenly we would find out that he was married and had a family and I still think that was the plan all along...to make announcement after the baby was born and I still think we will probably not hear from him until after the baby is born and there will be an exclusive either on TV or in print.

Kim

eh, it's just probably semantics kim. When I mentioned giving us a 'heads up' in my post about this information, I was thinking about the blog he left us before all the JP stuff hit...you know, some kind of something, so the blindsiding didn't seem so harsh. That was personal stuff too. On the other hand, I realize people change and grow and ebb and flow and all that...and the circumstances of this news wasn't, and isn't, in the same category as that mess. I realized, at some point over the weekend, that I was trying to compare apples and oranges.

Clazor, yep, we all have our own thoughts on the matter, for sure. I have seen quite a few posters who have stated they could accept Clay gay before they could accept him having a baby out of wedlock. I think it matters where each person draws their own moral lines. I think we are all just programing this information in with our own moral codes and established beliefs and trying to get comfortable with the new fit. It may take awhile for some. Perhaps some never will be comfortable with it.

[KAndre]

Unhappily for Scarlett on the Long Island episode, we have a large number of unbiased witnesses to many, many things - but especially the hat. Heh.

As for the fandom, eh. In my experience, as crazy as the Clay Nation has been, it's no better or worse or dedicated or hypocritical than any other I've seen. It's not even close to being the most notorious fandom (Trekkies? Soccer hooligans? Star Wars fans? Deadheads? Hard core MJ fans? The hard core college sports fans? SMU, anyone?). Honestly, considering my cynical nature, Clay Nation has turned out MUCH better than I expected. I've got some serious friends in the double digits (which I find totally unreal) that looks like they are stuck with me forever, I have had some friends that came and went (but my knowledge of them has added to my life), I've had large number of people who has fulfilled my low expectations of most people quite nicely so I can nod knowingly to myself.

I'm not surprised at the ones running off. I'm not surprised at the one's who are staying. I'm surprised at neither the insight or the stupidity (wait, I am occasionally surprised at both the heights and depths). In many ways, like how much of what Clay does really doesn't affect me, much of what the fandom does, good, bad or indifferent, doesn't affect me either. It may occasionally annoy me or lift me up, but all in all, it's just a little lagniappe.

Learning to Sing, at 256 pages in paperback, doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of one Clay Aiken. It's a small, limited glimpse in a small, limited portion of his life put out for a specific purpose. With lots of white space. All the M&Gs, all the dedications, all the interviews don't really say who is Clay Aiken. My girl, 00lsee was totally right this weekend - we are alone in our skin. Little bits of us interact with little bits of others, but hell, you can be surprised every day by a child who you brought up. By someone you've been married to for 20 years. By yourself.

[muskifest]

I never expected Clay to ever give us a "heads up"

Well, I didn't either at first...but the video playbacks over the last five years do NOT lie, so I know not ALL of those heads up appearances can't be a fold!

(Don't mind me: I'm trying to live my re-found mantra--Clay is HAWT and sings good. Clay is HAWT and sings good. Clay is HAWT and sings good.)

[jmh123]

Interesting long post Iseeme. One thing I wanted to say is that the flow of (seemingly) open information didn't just suddenly stop with the JP stuff started. I think there had already been a gradual tamping down on that, probably because he and his friends/family began to see what happens when you're too open. I don't think they ever did tell "everything" though. Oh, and it was Amanda's mother who was on the boards, or someone claiming to be her.

Clayzor, if what you say is true, you'll have to add "fucking stupid" to the list, because you'd have to be fucking stupid to ask someone Jaymes' age to bear a child for you. As for the rest, whatever. I don't see him exactly as you do, but I don't particularly care about any of that.

[djs111]

Learning to Sing, at 256 pages in paperback, doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of one Clay Aiken. It's a small, limited glimpse in a small, limited portion of his life put out for a specific purpose. With lots of white space. All the M&Gs, all the dedications, all the interviews don't really say who is Clay Aiken.

Yep! I really have to admit I was shocked by some of the reactions from people who chose to regard LTS as a tell-all autobiography. Even though Clay specifically said it was not, and said the audience was young people.

Parts of the fandom reminded me of that scene at the end of Rosemary's Baby - where Patsy Kelly is furiously rocking the bassinet and telling everyone Rosemary can't have her own baby, she doesn't know how to take care of him.

Yep, too, I agree there was lots of superficial info, which IMO was shut down when Clay saw what happened with that.

It had not occurred to me that Clay may very well be gay, he said he was not on multiple occasions, no one has EVER brought (or sold) any credible proof otherwise, I don't know why I would think that at all.

Anyway, again, Clay's life is not like the Truman Show, everybody is just extrapolating from teensy unavoidable glimpses. IMO, etc.

[Clayzorback]

Until he starts singing with his penis, though, it's a non-issue for me.

Dang.

He can SING with that beautiful humongous thang, too?

Clay may not be able to sing with his penis, but I bet he could make me sing with it.

Clay has stated that he has had Cosmopolitan drinks and that he has had wine. Now I don't think he is an alcholic. I think he rarely participates in the drinking of spirits. However, I also believe if the occassion called for it and he was in the mood he would indulge.

[ldyjocelyn]

Clazor, yep, we all have our own thoughts on the matter, for sure. I have seen quite a few posters who have stated they could accept Clay gay before they could accept him having a baby out of wedlock. I think it matters where each person draws their own moral lines. I think we are all just programing this information in with our own moral codes and established beliefs and trying to get comfortable with the new fit. It may take awhile for some. Perhaps some never will be comfortable with it.

Bolding mine. Well said, laughn. I think maybe you and I should go make out about now -- last week everyone paired off, and now I think I've found mine. *g* Anyway, I think the bolded statement is really the crux of the matter about now -- the time factor. Speaking for myself, it took me about 24 hours to process the entire thing, and then I was pretty good about it (with the requisite IIU or IIT added). But I also do know of people who are still trying to come to terms with it. IMO, I don't want them to leave the fandom; I just hope that in their time, they can figure out their place in this fandom -- which may be to never post on a message board again, but to continue to buy Clay CD's and attend Clay concerts. And as laughn also says, there will be a few that won't be able to handle it, and will probably leave entirely. It's gonna happen -- matter of fact, I think it did, via a lot of the other "gates" that this fandom has gone through. I don't need to list them, do I?

And also, there are going to be a myriad of reasons WHY this news is upsetting. In this case, though -- I don't feel the need to ask "why" quite yet. JMO of course.

Little bits of us interact with little bits of others, but hell, you can be surprised every day by a child who you brought up. By someone you've been married to for 20 years. By yourself.

Amen.

I think there had already been a gradual tamping down on that, probably because he and his friends/family began to see what happens when you're too open. I don't think they ever did tell "everything" though.

Amen #2.

[muskifest]

Clay may not be able to sing with his penis, but I bet he could make me sing with it.

Oh, BWAH! That makes me think of the wonderful Madeline Kahn in "Young Frankenstein"...remember how she'd break into song when she climaxed?

:lmaosmiley-1:

[annabear]

Little bits of us interact with little bits of others, but hell, you can be surprised every day by a child who you brought up. By someone you've been married to for 20 years. By yourself.

Amen.

Ay-ay-ay-ay-men.

[jmh123]

from CV:

I was just channel flipping and on CNN Headline they have some show on where they are highlighting celebrity/media scandals and commenting on how they were handled by the celebs. One of the commentators said, " Rule #1: The media is not your friend. Defending yourself will keep the story going."

Yup, Clay figured that out some time ago!

They may not agree with with his stance to not attempt to clear this up but did you see Brad and Angelina trying to clear it up when the rags were saying Brad was moving out and leaving Angelina? No. It was all over the newstands. Next thing you know, they're having twins. Oh and then they were born and had names and then oops... They've taken the exact same stance of not addressing what's being said about them.

I posted here last week about channel-surfing onto a bit on CNN Showbiz about an actress who was really angry because a magazine article had implied she'd had an affair with Bill Clinton. Her statement was very specific about the three times she'd met him and what the circumstances were. Someone from TMZ was commenting that her strong denial was PROOF that it's true. LOL. So last night I came home and turned on headline news to see if they were still showing the Clay bit, and Showbiz started up, and what are they talking about?? This woman who supposedly had an affair with Bill Clinton. So, no, denying it will not kill the story.

That program so sucks, BTW. Those two little bits are all I've watched of it in months so please don't consider this a recommendation.

I was with 2 NICU nurses this weekend and one of them had the People Magazine and was asking if it was true. I, too, gave the standard answer that all of the publicity was based on a crappy rumor website and nothing had been substantiated from either Clay or Jaymes. Then we started talking about 50 year old women getting pregnant who have never had children before. Both of them laughed. Said it happens but that without some kind of intervention it was pretty rare. And that intervention could take different methods and often many months!!! I mentioned that Clay had toured in November and December and had very few days off during that time period. Again - the skepticism! So who knows.

I noticed in that CNN piece that Clay stated that he hadn't been in LA in 9 months. That was from an interview when the AOL Sessions were recorded, which was mid-May. That got me to thinking--this scenario of Clay being the father, given the time period involved, requires that he drop off some sperm and then head off to Raleigh for tour rehearsals, go off on a Christmas tour, head to Mexico with his family (and no Jaymes) for UNICEF, off to NY for Spamalot rehearsals, followed by months of a grueling schedule of recording and doing the show every night, as well as some advance PR for the album. So if the actual gestation period is longer than 9 months, there was probably time to be present for an IVF process in late October somewhere and then take off for the rest of the time, otherwise, the sperm was frozen and he wasn't even around at all.

Makes me wonder IIT.

I had a funny dream last night which led to me waking up thinking, he's going to be in a movie in which he's a father, and somehow this got twisted into him being a father in RL. And it was a girl.

IIT, I wish everyone concerned all happiness, but IINT, I would really enjoy seeing the egg on the faces of a whole bunch of media who have run with this, with the only confirmation that Clay is the father coming from a statement from David Foster's publicist, who says he was misquoted. As for fans that will be pissed that he didn't deny it IINT, I'd say, you shoulda known better than to believe it.

Ultimately, it's just more drama. It's real people and real things that matter, but it isn't our life, it's his. I love Scarlett's line:

Everyone has their own private 'Fake Clay', though very few have attempted to communicate via text messages.

Personally, I'm good with whatever. I'm not saying that I'm convinced INT, but I'm not convinced IT either.

[Clayzorback]

Clayzor, thanks for the links. I have chosen to believe what Clay has told us - that he's straight. Could he change? Yes. I personally think, from seeing interactions with women, that he's straight, but really, that might be me projecting what I'm expecting to see. Until he starts singing with his penis, though, it's a non-issue for me. I don't even care, one way or another. And I don't expect that he will ever address that question again, nor does he owe it to me to address it. His private life is just that - private.

Gibby, while some people may choose, for awwhile, to live a gay lifestyle for the kinkiness of it, true gay people are born that way. IMHO and knowledge of the subject. They don't just wake up one day and say, "Oh what the heck, I think I'll be an outcast and have a miserable life, and become gay!" I believe Clay is gay and I can understand perfectly well why he has to claim he isn't and stay in the closet. I think with this baby business he is taking one step out of the closet. If he is not gay then I will be the first to tell him to pull down his pants so I can apologize and kiss his lily white ass.

He won't, but if he was to ever ask me, I would advise him to just come out. Let the chips fall where they are and live his life. Find true love. It would be the best thing to happen to his career in my opinion. He would probably be surprised at the amount of respect it would give him from the industry and his peers. Seing as how I believe his OTT fans are an albatross around his neck, way more than who he sleeps with has ever been. If he came out, then there would be no need for fans to engage the swamp people. No need to even go to sights like PH or John what's his name? No need for fans to go and protect him on every site they can find with a gay inuendo made on there. Or a less than flattering statement made about Clay in some obscure person's blog. There would be no need for the late night comics and others to make jokes insinuating his sexuality. There would be no need for fans keeping tabs on other fans who might believe he is gay. It would put an end to fans at OFC trying to run other fans off who belong to the OC board, or who think he is gay. It would put an end to sooooooo much. Mainly, and more importantly, it would be the most freeing thing Clay could do for himself.

When I first listened to his new cd I came away feeling very sad for Clay. Just listen to the words of the songs that he chose to put on this cd. Yes, I know he said they don't necessarily relate to him. However, I disagree somewhat. They had to resonate with him, somewhat, otherwise he wouldn't of chosen them. I hear a man who is terribly lonely, and conflicted. A man struggling with the idea of staying in this business or giving it up so that he could live his life, A man who is tired and weary of his fans and their unsatiable needs that he can't seem to satisfy no matter how hard he tries.

Interesting long post Iseeme. One thing I wanted to say is that the flow of (seemingly) open information didn't just suddenly stop with the JP stuff started. I think there had already been a gradual tamping down on that, probably because he and his friends/family began to see what happens when you're too open. I don't think they ever did tell "everything" though. Oh, and it was Amanda's mother who was on the boards, or someone claiming to be her.

Clayzor, if what you say is true, you'll have to add "fucking stupid" to the list, because you'd have to be fucking stupid to ask someone Jaymes' age to bear a child for you. As for the rest, whatever. I don't see him exactly as you do, but I don't particularly care about any of that.

She wasn't my first choice either, remember the flogging I got for thinking she wasn't good enough for Clay?

It is not easy to find someone who wants to give someone else a baby and keep it and help raise it. She is a close friend who knows him better than anyone else. A closer friend than Quianna or Angela. I do not see anything wrong with Clay wanting a baby and asking someone to help him out. I never had a problem believing this story. I just had a WTF moment about Jaymes.

muskifest, yes I do remember that movie. I always thought Madeline was a very funny lady............

Okay, I'm done. I know I will get piled on for expressing my opinions but I don't care. I gave Clay the benefit of believing him, when he says he is not, but no more. I have watched, listened, and been around too long now. I want to express my opinion on this subject honestly, for once. I have never publicly said these things in the past. I think it's time, for me anyway, to do that. I am okay with what I believe and I don't feel the need to be ashamed or worried what other fans think of me for it.. I have already expressed to his mother a long time ago, that I love Clay and if he were gay it would make not one bit of difference to me. I don't judge people by that and I am here because I enjoy his talent, and I will always support him in some small way, the best I can. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[muskifest]

IIT, I wish everyone concerned all happiness, but IINT, I would really enjoy seeing the egg on the faces of a whole bunch of media who have run with this, with the only confirmation that Clay is the father coming from a statement from David Foster's publicist, who says he was misquoted.

jmh, I am right there with you on this..

and this from Mz Scahhlett?

Everyone has their own private 'Fake Clay', though very few have attempted to communicate via text messages.

MY private Fake Clay? Anybody read fanfic?

[jmh123]

He won't, but if he was to ever ask me, I would advise him to just come out. Let the chips fall where they are and live his life. Find true love. It would be the best thing to happen to his career in my opinion. He would probably be surprised at the amount of respect it would give him from the industry and his peers. Seing as how I believe his OTT fans are an albatross around his neck, way more than who he sleeps with has ever been. If he came out, then there would be no need for fans to engage the swamp people. No need to even go to sights like PH or John what's his name? No need for fans to go and protect him on every site they can find with a gay inuendo made on there. Or a less than flattering statement made about Clay in some obscure person's blog. There would be no need for the late night comics and others to make jokes insinuating his sexuality. There would be no need for fans keeping tabs on other fans who might believe he is gay. It would put an end to fans at OFC trying to run other fans off who belong to the OC board, or who think he is gay. It would put an end to sooooooo much. Mainly, and more importantly, it would be the most freeing thing Clay could do for himself.

All these things are on my list of why he probably isn't gay. My Fake Clay wouldn't mind at all coming out if he were gay, but he can't come out if he isn't gay. Hence, "It would not make sense for me to do that," to Diane Sawyer. But whatever--I don't care either way, and one thing is for sure, a bunch of people who do not know him will never figure out the truth of it by debating it on a message board. You know?

[djs111]

Thing is, Clayzorback, I doubt there is anything at all that would make you think Clay is not gay. You believe you know better than he does. Shrug. Not worth a pile on, anyway, old news that some people think he is gay. So what.

It is the shrill or smug insistence about his sexuality EITHER WAY that creeps me out.

OK, as a mom, it would creep me out if some fan of my son, if he had fans, would actually feel they could discuss his sexuality with me. I would just thank them politely, and back away.

[ldyjocelyn]

All these things are on my list of why he probably isn't gay. My Fake Clay wouldn't mind at all coming out if he were gay, but he can't come out if he isn't gay. Hence, "It would not make sense for me to do that," to Diane Sawyer. But whatever--I don't care either way, and one thing is for sure, a bunch of people who do not know him will never figure out the truth of it by debating it on a message board. You know?

That's pretty much where I am too.

IMO, if he did come out and say he was gay -- I don't think it would change a thing with the media. Just as if he said "I'm not gay, stop asking," I think his saying "I am" would still continue the story. And it's none of their freakin' business anyway...so why should he say either way?

[aikim]

Clayzor I pretty much disagree with your whole post and right now I am trying to pull my jaw up off the floor at that last bit...you actually said that to his mother? I am sorry, but if that is true, that crosses all kinds of boundries for me and is a perfect example of fans crossing the line.

Kim

[laughn]

KAndre wrote:

Learning to Sing, at 256 pages in paperback, doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of one Clay Aiken. It's a small, limited glimpse in a small, limited portion of his life put out for a specific purpose. With lots of white space. All the M&Gs, all the dedications, all the interviews don't really say who is Clay Aiken. My girl, 00lsee was totally right this weekend - we are alone in our skin. Little bits of us interact with little bits of others, but hell, you can be surprised every day by a child who you brought up. By someone you've been married to for 20 years. By yourself.

very, very true...very.

ldyj...we can be, you know, paired up? whoot! I'm ready!

[Iseeme]

Clayzor - I expect you will take this as a personal affront but it's the same thing I've said to many other people who are adamantly sure Clay is gay because of how he looks or acts. I think that is the worst kind of bigotry and prejudice to put a label on someone because of the way they look or act! Beyond that - you have NO fucking proof of his sexual preferences.

I.do.not.think.Clay.Aiken.lies! Above any other thing that has made me want to defend him to his naysayers - THAT is the ultimate. I do not think he lies. He has said he isn't gay. I believe him. And I think a man of 29 years age would kind of "know" by now if he was more attracted to men than women - especially in Clay's situation where its been such a focus rather than his talent. The argument that he just isn't aware of it is so ludicrous as to be almost hysterical! This man with above average intelligence, sincerity and people skills and a maturity beyond his years in many ways I THINK would know if he preferred men to women.

(is it too early to have a drink do you think?)

eta: Good Lord - tell me you did not really say that to Faye! No wonder Clay goes to ground when it involves his personal life. This really squicks me out. And you were the one who brought it up so commenting on it is kind of fair game, isn't it?

[Couch Tomato]

It is the shrill or smug insistence about his sexuality EITHER WAY that creeps me out.

OK, as a mom, it would creep me out if some fan of my son, if he had fans, would actually feel they could discuss his sexuality with me. I would just thank them politely, and back away.

I have to agree with this.

[Clayzorback]

Clayzor I pretty much disagree with your whole post and right now I am trying to pull my jaw up off the floor at that last bit...you actually said that to his mother? I am sorry, but if that is true, that crosses all kinds of boundries for me and is a perfect example of fans crossing the line.

Kim

Well since you don't know the whys and how of that conversation, which is no ones business, then I think you should not judge me.

[annabear]

It is the shrill or smug insistence about his sexuality EITHER WAY that creeps me out.

OK, as a mom, it would creep me out if some fan of my son, if he had fans, would actually feel they could discuss his sexuality with me. I would just thank them politely, and back away.

Thank you.

Clayzor I pretty much disagree with your whole post and right now I am trying to pull my jaw up off the floor at that last bit...you actually said that to his mother? I am sorry, but if that is true, that crosses all kinds of boundries for me and is a perfect example of fans crossing the line.

Kim

Thank you again.

(is it too early to have a drink do you think?)

It's after noon here - I'll have one for you if it'll help.

[playbiller]

Postwhores I am recovering from my 10 Am dog walk - who knew it would be so bad that dog would cry to come home before we did our 1/2 mile.

So much to quote, of course I did and then decided it was too much print.

A lot of what people believe or don't believe requires editing Clay's remarks. I just take what he says at the truth, within conversational differences, unless there is proof to the other side. Even listen to what he and his friends has said, no, I don't know Clayton, or even public Clay. I do niot understand believing Clay when he says something you agree with and saying he just lied when he says something that does not back up your theories, either he tells the truth or he doesn't, all with in the normal vagaries.

To Clazorback, you are not only thinking Clay is lying about being gay but also questioning pretty much anyone who knows him well, i.e. his college roommate, his best friend girl in college, kim Locke who lived with him, Nick who lived with him, Kelly who was on a bus with him for 4 months, Jacob who toured with Clay a lot, Tyra who has become friends with him and really KNOWS gay people close and personal. So I think this is a case of you believing what you have convinced yourself is true despite obvious facts just because some "people" said it. Oddly enough, anyone who spent any time with Clay seems to believe he is not gay, so why exactly would you doubt him? your "gaydar"? I really want to know where you get your information from because I do not know of a credible source. And saying that to his mother ???? - what the heck do you say to other people's mothers? But, on the other hand, I am sure Faye is used to the strange fandom if strange fans walk into her kitchen wanting to talk to her. You certainly stirred the hornets nest here, I have a big sense of privacy.

Fandom - I never fit in, i don't understand the concept of being a fan and attacking the object of the fandom. I find moderating always done with an opinion because moderators are like human beings, which is why it was a shock going from a board where the moderators were assigned by what didn't interest them, rather than by something they follow. It is a lot easier to be unbiased when you don't care about the subject. Of course, the political boards were a riot of self involvement and bias, as to be expected and really quite crazily unfair. I just hang on by my fingernails and observe a lot.

Fans that claim to know what in his mind, I can't get my mind around that since I am not a 29 year old male raised in the south of a single mother...... I never got the fun of supposing about Clay. I tried to fit in, really, but sometimes the facts, just the facts come to the surface and I can't play suppose, this baby thing is one of the many supposing time that keeps me from posting about it - too many unknowns and variations to even come up with a credible suppose.

Some things I do feel free to know or suppose about

1) The teacher mentality - I have friends who taught and they had drilled into thier brains not to behave badly in front of children - as Clay said he did not feel comfortable cursing or drinking in front of kids and other good behavior things. Doesn't mean he didn't do these things, just did not do it in front of children. Of course , I could be wrong, but it just seems to b e parallel to what I had seen in these friends.

2) Humor, Clay seems to have a very sharp humor which he displayed many times, too quick for me, but enjoyable from a distance.

3) height is a given, doesn't ever change. Quite unlike shoe size or other silly things - hair, weight, teeth. None of that is mine to pick or choose, I can go with the flow or pass a quick comment and move on.

4) basic statistics and anecdotes - Personally, I can understand why people are interested in Clay having a goat as a pet, it is pretty funny and unusual, unless it was on the farm, at which point it would be normal (but it wasn't)

5) his lack of personal space when talking to people, I need to stand further back, he gets in people's faces.

6) the size of his shoes - that is right, even if he never mentioned it, I have no problemswith people guessing the size of his house. I am always interested in people's houses and the layouts because my needs are very basic, but I do envy people with more. It is like Holly sniffing up every person always looking for the perfect owner, I am always looking for the perfect house.

Whee, I am going to post before people add anything, I have been trying to catch up for over an hour.

[Iseeme]

the size of his hose

Muskiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii................................

....................

[muskifest]

One of the funniest typos in the history of the world!

the size of his hose - that is right, even if he never mentioned it,

You got THAT right, Play!