# 10 It isn't so easy to get your knickers off when they're in a knot.

[playbiller]

OK, I will bring it here so people know what Claygasm is talking about. - my post fromthe CH

I think we discussed this before, unlike most people from AI, Clay is an interesting 4 dimensional person. It is what drew people to him on AI and it is why RS wanted to interview him and it is why people try reading so much into him.His singing will probably always be second place in why people talk about him and we probably should be used to it by now, but it is also what will make him a life long star.

There are celebrities who are famous for nothing or one thing, a flash in the pan, the world moves on and they are history. But Clay has so many facets, so much potential in so many areas - and at the same time, he still has his humanity untainted by the celebrity.

A crisis could cut his career short, but I don't see any such thing in his future, People pick at him and yet he goes on, unfazed.

I think his success is going to be based on his varied fandom - where not everyone loves everything, but there is something to love for everyone.

I wrote this because it seems that Clay gets diverse coverage in the news, unlike someone like Kelly who gets controversy about her album. Noone seems to cares about her as a person.

[Ansamcw]

Ok. Another drive by post by Clayzorback.

Where you headed, Clayzor??

Regarding the OFCMB, the first couple of days have seemed odd to me .... like a Stepford Board or the "one extreme to another" syndrome. I hope the pendulum does settle to a golden mean, but no holding of breath! In reflecting on Clay's blog, I'm thinking Clay may feel the need to hear outside voices ... not from family and friends whose opinions he must know quite well ... not his bosses or his employees ... not yes people or no people ... but the full-blown fandom of diverse opinions from all ages, backgrounds, influences and musical preferences. When a broad agreement forms in a group like this, it's got to be worth consideration, as long as the premise is not false or skewed.

ITA. This is a very diverse fandom with people from all walks of life. It is almost impossible to have consensus over anything. I dream of a OFCMB where people will feel free to give their opinion of Clay without fear of being jumped. Where people won;t feel the need to jump on Clay's defense but simply share their different POV and respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion. To be able to agree to disagree and not feel like the other person is against you just because they may have a different POV.

The one sticky point that usually elicits a lot of conflict is about Clay;s sexuality. I do hope that the fans in general will just accept that Clay does ping some people's gaydar. The fact that some people find gaydars to be dumb is beside the point...some people think Clay is gay and there is nothing wrong with that. Clay has accepted it, have given up on answering the question and moved on. His attitude...people can say he is gay, can write it and think it and believe it....but it does not make it true. Arguing with people will not change people's mind...so just agree to disagree...and let it go. I know some fans simply don't want it on Clay's board but why? Its not as if its a secret that people think he is gay...Its just buying into the notion that this will be bad for Clay's career. Well...that perception isn't going to change soon. that perception has been around since Clay first came out on AI...and yet he has a nice career going. So I say people should just let go of the fight. Yup it can be irritating...but as Clay said, just IGNORE.

WORD Play.

[muskifest]

The one sticky point that usually elicits a lot of conflict is about Clay;s sexuality. I do hope that the fans in general will just accept that Clay does ping some people's gaydar. The fact that some people find gaydars to be dumb is beside the point...some people think Clay is gay and there is nothing wrong with that. Clay has accepted it, have given up on answering the question and moved on. His attitude...people can say he is gay, can write it and think it and believe it....but it does not make it true. Arguing with people will not change people's mind...so just agree to disagree...and let it go. I know some fans simply don't want it on Clay's board but why? Its not as if its a secret that people think he is gay...Its just buying into the notion that this will be bad for Clay's career. Well...that perception isn't going to change soon. that perception has been around since Clay first came out on AI...and yet he has a nice career going. So I say people should just let go of the fight. Yup it can be irritating...but as Clay said, just IGNORE.

BIG FAT, MORBIDLY OBESE WORD, Ansa! :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[luckiest1]

On the subject of the OFCMB, there is a thread with well over 200 responses now, in The Man, begging Clay to sing LAL on the tour. I don't have a problem with people expressing their love for the song, but I tend to get a little bit put off by all the posts expressing how disappointed they will be if he doesn't sing it. How about just waiting until the first show and being happy about what he does choose to sing?

But that's just me, being a bitch again.

[ldyjocelyn]

Hey gang -- time to test the limits of the number of quotes again....and make sure that scroll wheel works, 'K?

I hope all the pundits who claim that Clay could have and should have stood up to Clive over the covers thing are paying attention.

THANK YOU. Since beginning to hear this story about Kelly a few weeks ago, I was immediately transferring the kind press she's getting from it to what would possibly have happened if Clay had stood up to Clive as well. I truly think the publicity would have been worse, actually. (Calling him a "diva" about losing his passport and asking for the PM would have been NOTHING, IMO...)

But what I say of both of them is true of most artists. I don't think either is guaranteed a long career. I'm not sure Clay is, either. They all certainly have talent, but often, that's not quite enough.

ITA Jenna. I’ve always heard that there is such thing as a “sure thing,” especially in the entertainment business. The killer part is that some of Clay’s fans, IMO, don’t want to believe that. They’ll believe it about almost everyone else, but Clay is SPECIAL and should be handed everything on a silver platter. Well, he IS special – he’s got so much more than talent, IMO, and I really do think that he’ll go so very far in the business. But there’s got to be some realism worked into it too, and we certainly don’t know what’s going to happen 2, 3 or 5 years down the line. JMO.

I just lost an hour of my life reading through a thread elsewhere about all the OFC crappola. Lord. We are a fandom of the ages, ain't we?

Oh God, yes.

Loved your comparison of Clay and Linda Ronstadt, BTW.

Not alone. I do not like that Jesus song - its inane! I can't stand that one about before he cheats. Again, inane. But then again, one reason I generally do not like country music is IMO the lyrics are often inane,

Eh…I like SOME country. Jingoist crap makes me turn it off so fast – but then I love the Dixie Chicks like crazy, and one of my favorites at the moment is Brad Paisley. His song “Alcohol” is one of the funniest songs I think I’ve ever heard. He also looks good in a pair of jeans. Just sayin’.

The term "payola" is over used and over rated ...JMO. If radio doesn't embrace the single..it is dead.

ITA. Money does talk, I’ll grant you that. But sheesh, there’s a fine balance between that and a good song. Finding that balance can be extremely difficult, and also rather frustrating, I’m sure.

jmh, thanks for linking to that Japanese blog. That was almost too much cuteness for so early in the morning. I said “almost.”

Its all part of the growing process.

And again, apply that to Clay – he’s still learning too, IMO.

And then on to Houston and I get to meet ladyj! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

I know!!!! I'm looking forward to meeting you too! It’s coming up fast now! Thank God…I need a Clay hit so very badly, not to mention the chance to be fangirly with new friends.

Interesting that with all the predictions of No. 1, a huge built-in, longtime fanbase, iTunes bonuses, tons of publicity, and great reviews .... Paul McCartney's Memory Almost Full debuted at No. 2 with 162,640, second to .... T-Pain? Who in God's creation is T-Pain?

Makes Clay's ATDW debut look absolutely stunning in retrospect!

Aw man, Macca came in at two? That bites. And totally agree with the comparison (as loathe as I am to do that kind of thing) with Macca as far as ATDW sales go.

Oh, hell....WTF? Clay seems at peace with life right now, so who the heck am I to angst over him and his career if he's happy?

Ooooooohhhhmmmmm….

play regarding your feelings toward Kelly and “she should know this,” I don’t think I totally agree….because every single one of us is different. You had quite a bit of experience by the time you were 25. I didn’t. Some people NEVER get that experience. I think the key, as has been said earlier, is if she learns from this, or makes the same “mistakes” again. And again – some people can NEVER see their own mistakes.

I wonder if he is amused when people figure things out and they are Waaaaaaay off.

I’ve wondered that too.

Loved your post about multifaceted Clay.

Ooooh, I guess I’d better be looking for thread title suggestions…..

Ansa, you know I love you, right?

[lightmyfire]

I am one of the members of the OFC that prefers discussion of Clay's sexuality to be off limits on the site.

For example, I am reminded of the disgusting, disgraceful tabloid media frenzy in Europe during Mercury's last days here on earth.

What positives/enhancements are provided by including facets of Clay's personal life to the site/message board? I am seriously attempting to understand the importance or need.

[keepingfaith]

ITA. This is a very diverse fandom with people from all walks of life. It is almost impossible to have consensus over anything. I dream of a OFCMB where people will feel free to give their opinion of Clay without fear of being jumped. Where people won;t feel the need to jump on Clay's defense but simply share their different POV and respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion. To be able to agree to disagree and not feel like the other person is against you just because they may have a different POV.

I agree, especially with the bolded part. That's where tolerance and open-mindedness comes in. I am not the biggest fan of LAA, and if he didn't sing it in concert, it wouldn't bother me one bit. But I hope he does sing it because it means so much to so many -- and I don't want to hear the crying and lamenting certain to come if he doesn't sing it. I want people to be happy and since so many people love that song, I hope they get their heart's desire. And I'm sure I will love it, too!

And just an aside re Kelly ... I got an email from iTunes today, and with a pre-purchase of My December they will give you a code for concert ticket presales along with the normal stuff like bonus songs and booklets. Hmmm, tour sales must be limping. I was surprised that Kelly has been booked into the Toyota Center in Houston when she didn't even sell out the CWM Pavilion last summer and lawn tickets were two for one! The Toyota Center seems like quite a stretch -- especially if the new album doesn't appeal to pre-teen girls. Christina/Pussycat Dolls did well at Toyota, but a friend told me the place was full of 8-12 year old girls in high heels and makeup!

Edited June 13, 2007 by keepingfaith

[luckiest1]

The one sticky point that usually elicits a lot of conflict is about Clay;s sexuality. I do hope that the fans in general will just accept that Clay does ping some people's gaydar. The fact that some people find gaydars to be dumb is beside the point...some people think Clay is gay and there is nothing wrong with that. Clay has accepted it, have given up on answering the question and moved on. His attitude...people can say he is gay, can write it and think it and believe it....but it does not make it true. Arguing with people will not change people's mind...so just agree to disagree...and let it go. I know some fans simply don't want it on Clay's board but why? Its not as if its a secret that people think he is gay...Its just buying into the notion that this will be bad for Clay's career. Well...that perception isn't going to change soon. that perception has been around since Clay first came out on AI...and yet he has a nice career going. So I say people should just let go of the fight. Yup it can be irritating...but as Clay said, just IGNORE.

While I totally agree with the IGNORE mantra and I don't get involved in trying to defend Clay in this regard ....I don't necessarily agree with the rest of your post. One of the things that really bothers me, in society in general, not just with the Clay fandom, is the whole premise of "gaydar". People should be allowed to self-identify, and I don't see why it should be necessary for anyone to question their sexuality. Doing such a thing on Clay's own OFC? I just don't think it would be respectful to him. JMO obviously.

I've had people mistakenly assume my sexuality was something it's not because of "gaydar" (or the lack thereof), and then completely put their foot in their mouths because of it. It's not a pleasant thing to be on the receiving end of. And now I'll get down off my soapbox.

[muskifest]

a friend told me the place was full of 8-12 year old girls in high heels and makeup!

Oh God. Yeah. Like yesterday when Carrie was 'helping' me look through her school yearbook. I'm trying to remember if I said things like, "OMG! That guy is SUCH a player! He's had so many girlfriends." when I was in the 6th grade.

ETA: BTW....I love this quote:

First they ignore you, then they laugh at

you, then they fight you, then you win.

--- Mohandas Gandhi

Edited June 13, 2007 by muskifest

[Ansamcw]

I am one of the members of the OFC that prefers discussion of Clay's sexuality to be off limits on the site.

For example, I am reminded of the disgusting, disgraceful tabloid media frenzy in Europe during Mercury's last days here on earth.

What positives/enhancements are provided by including facets of Clay's personal life to the site/message board? I am seriously attempting to understand the importance or need.

I make a big distinction about discussions of Clay's sexuality and ignoring and accepting people's POV about it. I guess the discussion really starts when one questions another persons POV.

I do agree...Clay's sexuality is not up for discussion cos he already stated he is straight period. So if someone suggests that something means Clay is gay, I suggest the best response is...well that is your opinion, I totally disagree but if thats your opinion, I respect that. Then disengage...ignore. To say anything further would just play into this persons agenda...that is to discuss Clay's sexuality. If the person continues to try and push their point...just ignore or report to a mod if they are off topic.

eta: further clarification...I am not saying it should be ok to question Clay's sexuality. BUT we can't control what people think and perceive and believe. all I'm saying is that to further argue with someone about it is just going to make the discussion a lot longer. I just don't think everyone has to act like some mod and shut people's notion that he is gay or might be gay. Now if someone keeps insisting and trying to ram that notion down everyone's throat...its the mods job to get them to shut up. If a handful of fans do it....it just starts up the whole debate.

[playbiller]

I guess I don't post clearly.

I don't know what Kelly should or should not have known, I jut don't think she is so young or inexperienced. Everyone has gaps in experiences, and I was not brilliant when I was 25, although I think I was probably a lot sharper than I am now. I just think Kelly is not a naive kid. I think people should not be assumed to be child-like at 25. There are some things that she should be held to account and other stuff is because of different reasons, not just age. Kelly is not a child, she had many challenging experiences as she was growing up and seemed to take responsibilty for a lot of things. Most likely, she was sold a billl of goods and bought it without thinking it through. Or she has too many yes people around her. (you are wonderful, everything your write is brilliant, you are a goddess - yes people). I guess my point is that she is only 25 does not fly as a reason - there are other reasons.

As to her "I have never been in love" schtik, it shoulds like it was wholly lifted from a friend of hers. I think that is an "I don't want to talk about it" schtik.

As to my life that - was a condensed version of the first year of my marriage, I left a lot out. Everyone I meet has stories, almost all more challenging experiences than mine. I have never dealt with long term illnesses or extreme poverty. The nerves in my husbands arm were sewn back and he recovered in less than a year, the broken bones healed much quicker. I paid off the bills in less than 6 months and only had one job after that and I was paid very well for both these jobs as project leader in one and contract programmer in another.

Edited June 13, 2007 by playbiller

[KAndre]

I agree, especially with the bolded part. That's where tolerance and open-mindedness comes in. I am not the biggest fan of LAA, and if he didn't sing it in concert, it wouldn't bother me one bit. But I hope he does sing it because it means so much to so many -- and I don't want to hear the crying and lamenting certain to come if he doesn't sing it. I want people to be happy and since so many people love that song, I hope they get their heart's desire. And I'm sure I will love it, too!

Chick, give me my brain back! Hell, I don't think there's any consensus in the fandom at all, up to and including just whether or not they like Clay - because there are clearly some fans of aspects of Clay but the whole enchilada just ain't their cuppa. But you just succintly explained how I feel about LAA.

As for allowing people to self-identify - that is ideal, but I think it's inherent in people to classify people - especially by some characteristic that's important to them, for whatever reason it's important to them, to put people in categories "like-me" or "not-like-me". My mother always counts how many black people are in anything - I don't care if it's the Sweedish All-Viking team and also claims to have "black-dar". And putting people in the category "not-like-me" isn't always bad.

[merrieeee]

I must be the only one not quoted by ldyjocelyn! Oh wait you have to post to be quoted

How many days to Houston? I cannot wait to see him. I will not be disappointed in anything he sings as I have no expectations. Don't care what he warbles! Don't care what he wears! Don't care about the hair!

I just want to gaze on him and listen to that gorgeous voice with some of my best budds! And then get to relive it all over again while we render, watch and listen to Clack! Oh Happy Times!

Yes the exclamation point is my friend...Why do you ask?!

[KAndre]

Yeah, right you don't care! You're gonna actually like see him and not a huge green-eyed blob! HA HA!

[Couch Tomato]

WORD ANSA

IMO there is nothing on the surface wrong with having a board like OC because even broaching the subject on most boards is a big fat no no. And I'm sure there are people like me who know people who are gay, choose to live a gay lifestyle, all their friends know about it, but their parents are still wondering when the marriage and babies are going to arrive. It's a deeply personal and emotional issue for a lot of people therefore it has the makings of interesting discussion. It may not be our business but we have named Clay's penis which is also a bit intrusive (yet fun heeeee). But I'm sure that doesn't sit well with some.

Take him at his word is a wonderful thing -- that's the philosphy I believe in. Having a difference of opinion, philosophy, or mindset and expressing it about anything in this fandom or about Clay should be ok. If people get pissed and mad because of something you express really, that's too bad. If someone thinks Clay is gay and will come out of the closet one day... really, WHO THE FREAK CARES. If it's on a board where that opinion is acceptable to say or discuss openly then fine.

If I think the mindless Clay conspracies are STUPID so what. (CLay was used to bring people into the stores to sell Daughtey? uh ok. STUPID!) That's just my opinion. I think the constant spying and policing of boards you don't even belong to, sharing their words all over out of context, contributes to the hostile environment. But that's another issue.

Ideas? Ok! Expression OK? What's not ok is to target people, harrass them, post their pictures and laugh. post addresses, intimidate, or generally cause mischief elsewhere or force your opinion down the throats of others in an agressive, hostile way. I would think people who do any of these things should be called out. I would think all of Clay Nation would be outraged even if you agree with their general philosphy.

I'm abhored by the treatmeant the Clayzorback told us about that she received at the hands of Chexxxys. And she isn't the only one. I know of 3 people who were targeted. Yet even Clazorback didn't want to type out their name? Why? I feel that sometimes I am being equated with that board and I cry foul at that right now. I actually believed 80% of the stuff in the original Chexxxy's blog but the blog comments were vile and had already started calling out people by name, lots of them people I knew. And you know what, some of the people being called out, well I won't be inviting them over to dinner myself. But where does it end. The first time I hear they harrased somebody I knew I removed that blog from my blog links and from FCA. I just don't endorse that kind of action. And I don't censor. There are only 3 Clay sites that I have refused to advertise. I don't care about content. I care about action and only on that basis have I refused to list a site.

ETA: This is a general post. I don't even know the policy of OFC and what is allowed and what isn't. As the official fan site of Clay I do think that is a different animal and should be for the most part a happy happy place. There are other places to get into serious topics. New fans should not have to jump right into the fray of the crazy ass world of Clay fans. But that is Clay's call and once decided that's it. The people who are then combative and hostile and posting to get a rise out of people should face the consequences of their ACTIONS. I hope that's clear.

[Couch Tomato]

I don't mind a petition for LAA..where do I sign. As long as people know he'll sing what he wants and do not demand. I thought the Touch stuff was fun and Clay's comebacks funnier. But it got ridiculous after awhile... and after one of his comebacks was a bit snappy in tone it seemed obvious to me it was a lost cause and enoough was enough.

[muskifest]

I don't care about content. I care about action and only on that basis have I refused to list a site.

So does that mean my new site, "Muski Does Clay Infinite Ways" will make it to the FCA links page?

[Couch Tomato]

I don't care about content. I care about action and only on that basis have I refused to list a site.

So does that mean my new site, "Muski Does Clay Infinite Ways" will make it to the FCA links page?

Not only would I list it..it would be featured as MUST SEE.

[Ansamcw]

On the subject of the OFCMB, there is a thread with well over 200 responses now, in The Man, begging Clay to sing LAL on the tour. I don't have a problem with people expressing their love for the song, but I tend to get a little bit put off by all the posts expressing how disappointed they will be if he doesn't sing it. How about just waiting until the first show and being happy about what he does choose to sing?

But that's just me, being a bitch again.

First of all...why do some people say LAL...isn't it LAA Lover all alone???

You are me...I get put off by this too. I also think this does not really help. remember TOUCH!!!

I think Clay knows that the fans loved his song. if he does not choose to sing it...there must be some important reason. If the song is just too personal for him to share... hundreds of pages of fans asking for it might just make him more self conscious and make him dig his heels in.

WORD to KAndre about the gaydar. I think its part of human nature to try and simplify the information we gather...so we tend to classify things according to our experiences. What makes this bad is if a person refuse to open their minds to the fact that one aspect does not make a person or that there are always exception to the rule and be willing to learn more about a person or situation and not jump to conclusions about them. I don;t think its really being disrespectful to believe that Clay might be gay. BUT it is disrespectful to insist he is and that he should try and get out of the closet.

[luckiest1]

As for allowing people to self-identify - that is ideal, but I think it's inherent in people to classify people - especially by some characteristic that's important to them, for whatever reason it's important to them, to put people in categories "like-me" or "not-like-me". My mother always counts how many black people are in anything - I don't care if it's the Sweedish All-Viking team and also claims to have "black-dar".

Hee, "black-dar" CMSU. It reminds me of the Amanda Marshall song "Shades of Grey". Awesome song.

First of all...why do some people say LAL...isn't it LAA Lover all alone???

You are me...I get put off by this too. I also think this does not really help. remember TOUCH!!!

I think Clay knows that the fans loved his song. if he does not choose to sing it...there must be some important reason. If the song is just too personal for him to share... hundreds of pages of fans asking for it might just make him more self conscious and make him dig his heels in.

Ooops! I don't know why I always type LAL instead of LAA! I guess it's the "L" sound in alone that gets me every time.

ITA with your reasoning on this, too. If he sings it - woo hoo! If he doesn't, I'm sure he has his reasons. I just don't want to see it turn into another Touch.

Edited June 13, 2007 by luckiest1

[Couch Tomato]

As for allowing people to self-identify - that is ideal, but I think it's inherent in people to classify people - especially by some characteristic that's important to them, for whatever reason it's important to them, to put people in categories "like-me" or "not-like-me". My mother always counts how many black people are in anything - I don't care if it's the Sweedish All-Viking team and also claims to have "black-dar". And putting people in the category "not-like-me" isn't always bad.

BWAH..yep I can relate. My mom will root for any black reality contestant just cuz. Like on Survivor..the black guy drank the win when everybody was asleep and got voted off as he well he should. She kept coming up with all kinds of excuses for him. But I just kept repeating..BUT HE DRANK THE WINE! LOL.

[laughn]

Well - we know something that Clay has changed that fans complained about

1. JNT 05 he changed from Black to white suits (or tea white)

2. In the NAT, he added Still the one to pick up the act.

There are probably other times as well.Sometimes he listens, other times he does not - like the Tears run dry fans that hatted it, while he ignored the spinning ball remarks and seems to be in your face about it.

If I remember correctly, he also changed some of the jumbotron images for YWT as the tour moved on. Got rid of the crosses I believe and went with clouds and sky.

A crisis could cut his career short, but I don't see any such thing in his future, People pick at him and yet he goes on, unfazed.

I think his success is going to be based on his varied fandom - where not everyone loves everything, but there is something to love for everyone.

Totally agree...as much as a pain in the ass as this fandom can be to each other, I think it is also one of the reasons his fans have stayed so cra-enthuastic. Like his hair or his clothes or his song choice, just wait around for another minute and it will change and it will be the next guy's turn to fall in love all over again.

The one sticky point that usually elicits a lot of conflict is about Clay;s sexuality. I do hope that the fans in general will just accept that Clay does ping some people's gaydar. The fact that some people find gaydars to be dumb is beside the point...some people think Clay is gay and there is nothing wrong with that. Clay has accepted it, have given up on answering the question and moved on. His attitude...people can say he is gay, can write it and think it and believe it....but it does not make it true. Arguing with people will not change people's mind...so just agree to disagree...and let it go. I know some fans simply don't want it on Clay's board but why? Its not as if its a secret that people think he is gay...Its just buying into the notion that this will be bad for Clay's career. Well...that perception isn't going to change soon. that perception has been around since Clay first came out on AI...and yet he has a nice career going. So I say people should just let go of the fight. Yup it can be irritating...but as Clay said, just IGNORE.

Yes! Well said ansa . I had dinner last night with a friend who likes Clay but she's not on any boards. She's gone to a few concerts and she'll be going with me this summer as well. She told me that it bothered her when the first thing people say when she mentions Clay is that, 'he's gay.' I asked her what she said in response. She said she answered nothing. She didn't know what to say...it sort of embarrassed her. I asked her if it mattered to her if he were straight or gay, and she said 'no', just that she was bothered because she didn't know how to reply. I told her she could give them Clay's response and tell then it just wasn't a topic up for discussion...but then I also gave her the answer I use if people ever bring up the subject with me. I told her to tell them that since he doesn't sing out of his penis I really don't care to keep track of what he does with that part of his body. (...and BTW, if he ever does, I wouldn't want to see the blood bath at Ticketmaster for front row seats.)

I am one of the members of the OFC that prefers discussion of Clay's sexuality to be off limits on the site.

For example, I am reminded of the disgusting, disgraceful tabloid media frenzy in Europe during Mercury's last days here on earth.

What positives/enhancements are provided by including facets of Clay's personal life to the site/message board? I am seriously attempting to understand the importance or need.

lightmyfire from what I understand, the page 6/Canoe article that was brought over by someone who was curious about Clay being in Paris. They didn't carry the article in wanting to discuss 'diva screeching' or 'swimming under the Eiffel Tower' or any of that crap. They were hyped about Clay possibly being in Paris. If people had focused on the possibility of the Paris trip instead of the obvious 'wussy' digs, then at least something might have been talked about of interest, and the rest could fallen away with the trash.

It seems to me if you try to hide all the negative crap, or worse, fight about it, you give it more power...and any power is more than it deserves. For me, it's better to read it, figure out what that one kernel of truth might be, snort at the stupidity, laugh if you can, wrinkle your face in disgust, then move on...

[muskifest]

I find the whole Gaydar thing fascinating. I know that when I first started work here, I had that GORGEOUS pic of Clay in the open-necked tux on my desktop. You know the one---he's lying on the grass (gah) with his hands under his head (gah) and he's looking up with eyes that promise such delicious things (muski takes a moment)....

A coworker---the hAWT guy whose body reminds me of a toned Clay and even has green eyes and fills his jeans quite nicely (muski takes another moment---how many moments am I allowed?) and who didn't come out of the closet until his senior year of college when he met the man of his dreams, had sex for the first time in his life, "married" him and now--12 years later---has a loving home with a daughter, too!---

Anyway, this guy came into my office and saw the picture one day and said..."Uh...huh. That's Clay? He's quite gay, isn't he?"

I told him that according to Clay he isn't. His response was, "Well, maybe he just hasn't gotten there yet. Took me a while, too. But...just look at him....he's gay."

All righty, then.

Whatever. I actually can see why someone who's LOOKING for Clay being gay could look at that picture and apply some stereotypical "identifiers" to it so as to make them "conclude" that he is. But...when I look at that picture, the feelings I get have absolutely nothing to do with him not wanting to do wonderful heterosexual things to and with me.

So sue me.

[FullyFunctional]

OMG, so much word to go around.

First of all, I need a wedding dress because I am going to spirit Ansa, couchtomato and KAndre off (along with some others here) for a good old fashioned mass wedding.

IMO there is nothing on the surface wrong with having a board like OC because even broaching the subject on most boards is a big fat no no. And I'm sure there are people like me who know people who are gay, choose to live a gay lifestyle, all their friends know about it, but their parents are still wondering when the marriage and babies are going to arrive. It's a deeply personal and emotional issue for a lot of people therefore it has the makings of interesting discussion. It may not be our business but we have named Clay's penis which is also a bit intrusive (yet fun heeeee). But I'm sure that doesn't sit well with some.

WORD. If a bunch of people want a space of their own to have a kind of "niche" fandom, so be it. I am not condoning the behavior of any individual members who might create "mischief" elsewhere, but I don't care if someone wants to create a board where they sit around and call Clay gay, or a board where people fantasize about knitting with Clay, or a board for Amish Clay Lovers, or whatever, I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with are people who gather for the sole purpose of carrying on witch hunts against other fans and engaging in what I consider to be borderline illegal. I don't think that kind of speculation belongs on the OFC, but what someone does on their own board is not my concern until they bring it into my face. And yes, the occasional OC member does make innuendos at the OFC and try to rile people up, but I just scroll past them. Yes, that's immature behavior. No, I don't have to play in to the immature behavior, give the person what they want, and overreact.

I'll come right out and say that I was one of the people who was cyber-bullied by self-styled "warriors for Clay". I am posting under an alter now, and I don't really give a crap if anyone knows who I am (ebird), but the experience pretty much soured me on the fandom as a whole for months. I pretty much left until I finally decided that I wasn't going to let myself be intimidated by some overinvested people who thought they were engaging in some silly epic battle between good and evil. It's their problem, not mine. I want to thank you, couchtomato, for acknowledging one of the proverbial elephants in the fandom room. I consider these people to be no different than the "haters" on the Clay hate blogs. The targets are different, but the vileness is the same. It's refreshing to hear people openly and finally speaking up about what has been going on behind the scenes. People have received nasty PMs that have told them to leave the fandom. People have had their pictures posted while other people make snide comments about their physical appearance. People have been investigated; their private lives exposed. I don't know if these people are still active now, but it certainly was a feeding frenzy at one time. When you try to explain this entire situation to a total stranger outside the fandom, the reaction is generally a double take.

I love Clay like I love chocolate cake and ducklings (and that's a LOT), but at no time do I take on any part of his life as my own personal battle. He's a strong man, and he appears to be telling us that he lets the annoying parts of life just roll off.

I cannot agree more with Ansa here:

So if someone suggests that something means Clay is gay, I suggest the best response is...well that is your opinion, I totally disagree but if thats your opinion, I respect that. Then disengage...ignore. To say anything further would just play into this persons agenda...that is to discuss Clay's sexuality.

I have seen some people I've been posting with for several years now slowly turn into paranoid, bitter people I don't even recognize. The fandom has apparently ceased to be a source of light hearted fun and celebration for them a long time ago. They've spent so much time dwelling in the muck and mire, keeping up with all the haters and swamp dwellers, that they believe that the entire world is an ugly, hateful place. It's amazing how trivial all the "hater" activity is when you just stop looking for it.

Edited June 13, 2007 by FullyFunctional

[JennaZ]

I have mixed feelings about Kelly’s album problems. I can understand her desire for free artistic expression, but everything costs something…especially in the music business.

Kelly is very young, with lots of lessons yet to learn, this may just be one of them.

Kelly is young, but I think, smarter than people give her credit for. She seems perfectly aware that this album may not sell what the last one did, but it seems to be the kind of music she wants to do. She's made plenty of money, so she may not feel particularly driven to make the most commercial album possible. It may turn out to be a mistake, but she seems to know what the risks are.

I dream of a OFCMB where people will feel free to give their opinion of Clay without fear of being jumped. Where people won;t feel the need to jump on Clay's defense but simply share their different POV and respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion. To be able to agree to disagree and not feel like the other person is against you just because they may have a different POV.

Absolutely. Debate is most civil when there is a "agree to disagree" mentality. Unfortunately, many are so deeply invested in their positions that they forget that no one is going to "win" the argument. Sometimes, you just have to let it go and accept the fact that others share different opinions.

As for fan input, I think Clay does read the boards, but not as frequently or extensively as many fans think he does. Some things impact what he does. Some things don't. It's not a bad idea to see what fans think, but he has a better understanding of the realities of his own situation, and he has his own emotional, artistic, and business needs. I don't think anyone should become a slave to their fan demands.

I once read an interview with Joss Whedon, the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He compared the message board fans to "your big, drunk best friend." It made a lot of sense. They know a lot about you. They care about you. They can be very helpful and invaluable. But they can also hurt you with their unthinkingly brutal honesty, because they don't really know you, and they can do act in ways that are hard to control.

I have seen some people I've been posting with for several years now slowly turn into paranoid, bitter people I don't even recognize. The fandom has apparently ceased to be a source of light hearted fun and celebration for them a long time ago. They've spent so much time dwelling in the muck and mire, keeping up with all the haters and swamp dwellers, that they believe that the entire world is an ugly, hateful place. It's amazing how trivial all the "hater" activity is when you just stop looking for it.

So true, fullyfunctional. It's very easy to lose perspective when one focuses too closely on the negative. Yes, there is a lot of evil in the world. However, there's also a lot of goodness and joy. I wish more people allowed themselves to experience it.