#16 Veins flowing with personality, thighs dripping with character.

[cindilu2]

Well I was vilified on the Clayboard for suggesting that some folks might owe Clay an apology.

I am certainly not speaking to those who merely expressed concern, or even dislike for the idea of this tour. I'm speaking to those who used words like 'loser' and 'career suicide' and 'opportunist' and 'fool', both about Clay and his friends. Especially when these things were flung at him before he ever uttered (or typed) a single word about the subject. If anybody really believes that these words aren't hurtful and mean - that these actions don't bear apologizing for... well I'll just say I hope you never consider yourself my fan.

Well, if it makes you feel better. I completely agree with you. I think that some of these people fit the definition of a stalker. They have over-identified to the point that they believe they should control Clay's life and that he should do what they want OR ELSE. There are some sick puppies out there. I'm not kidding. I'm seriously rethinking this whole fandom thing---NOT in relation to Clay (that's safe), but in relation to the message boards and these vicious, mean-spirited people.

If I were Clay, I'd close down the OFC and just get on with my career, ignoring the boards altogether.

wandacleo, quite honestly the fact that I soooo agree with your post actually scares the shit out of me. I should have added 'and don't feel that those actions merit a good, hard look at yourself' to my post as well. I try not to think of it too often, but the idea of what some of these people are capable of should the day ever come that Clay truly falls out of the little box they have him in... *shudder* I don't know if it's possible (or even advisable) to haven an entertainment career without the internet playing at least a part in it. He needs an online outlet (albeit a better managed one than he has today) but there is absolutely NO need for a message board to be a part of it, in my opinion. One way communication. He talks, we listen.

cursed edit button - it lies, I tell you!

Edited September 12, 2007 by cindilu2

[merrieeee]

Just stay here where it's nice and cozy and we are all good people...well except for those who are eveel*g* Besides there are some awesome pictures posted and let's not mention the emoticons (or the smut)!!!!!!

I too get disgusted at times and then I remember if I didn't go read this s**t then I would be far happier! So in a way I only have myself to blame for it. I am trying to not go to "those" places that are doom & gloom factories, even when everything seems to be rosy.

[champion124]

Well I was vilified on the Clayboard for suggesting that some folks might owe Clay an apology.

I am certainly not speaking to those who merely expressed concern, or even dislike for the idea of this tour. I'm speaking to those who used words like 'loser' and 'career suicide' and 'opportunist' and 'fool', both about Clay and his friends. Especially when these things were flung at him before he ever uttered (or typed) a single word about the subject. If anybody really believes that these words aren't hurtful and mean - that these actions don't bear apologizing for... well I'll just say I hope you never consider yourself my fan.

AMEN!

And will anything be learned from yesterday? I hope something positive can come from everyone examining how they behaved. I needed to express my opinion here, I am glad I did. I simply had no where else to speak freely. I reacted to the madness taking place on some bigger boards, I tried to see it with humor as I do with most situations. I post on many boards...and I'm the same person everywhere. I don't know how else to be.

I will think very carefully about if I should have done it differently, but I don't know that others will. I hope it won't be like so many other situations where some make excuses, rationlize their own behavior and paint everyone who behaved differently as 'bad fans". I hope it will be different, but I don't expect it to be. Does that make any sense?

[aikim]

Just dropping by for a quick dose of sanity... :F_05BL17blowkiss: to all!

Kim

ETA Sure is a lot of backpedaling and rationalizing going on out there.

Edited September 12, 2007 by aikim

[lilyshine]

Very OT post hearkening back to a dilemma faced by YSRN before all the strum & drang.

Try this site for grape recipes. http://www.concordgrape.org/ It's too late for this year, but maybe next.

This one especially intrigued me.

GRAPE GLAZED CARROTS

(Makes 4-6 Servings)

2 bunches young carrots

1 tablespoon butter or margarine

1/2 cup Concord grape jam

2 tablespoons lemon juice

1/2 teaspoon grated lemon peel

1/4 teaspoon ground ginger

2 tablespoons toasted chopped pecans

Pare carrots and cut into 2-inch pieces by slicing diagonally. Cook until tender in lightly salted water. Drain. Combine butter, Concord grape jam, lemon juice, lemon peel and ginger in a saucepan. Add carrots. Cook for 10 minutes over moderate heat, turning often to thoroughly glaze carrots. Garnish with pecans.

Not that I'll be trying it any time soon. Like someone, maybe Jumpingjacks? above, I'm a non-cook. If it takes more time to prepare than to eat, it's not for me!

[jmh123]

I've been frustrated, sad, amused, and angry many time before, but today I feel deep and abiding shame at this fandom. Going off half-cocked is nothing new, rushing in defense of Clay is old news, hyper-criticism of Clay likewise, but to participate in deep analysis of a news item that was presented as a "maybe," and then to turn around and blame a single individual for it with no benefit of the doubt--it's disgusting. The strong voices should have been saying, "hold off," "give this a little time," "wait and see if it's true," instead of joining in to energize and shape the discourse of criticism of Clay for agreeing to the tour. Then some of the same people are ripping Kim to shreds now that we know he did not, giving her no benefit of the doubt when we of all people should be aware of the complexities of media and PR actions. The cruelty towards Kim as a performer and a person, the smug self-importance of statements implying that "Clay is too good for them," or "their fans should be thrilled that they have this opportunity to tour with someone so superior to them," are simply offensive. The face of this fandom has become bitter and ugly and off-putting. If it is affecting some of us, who are huge fans of the man, so deeply, I can only imagine how it must look to outsiders. Maybe I've just been blinded to some extent, for all my prior fussing about it, but today it has really hit me hard.

ETA: lilyshine, if only I didn't hate cooked carrots...I think that looks really good.

Edited September 12, 2007 by jmh123

[duckyvee]

before all the strum & drang.

Ah, one of my favorite expressions! It sure applied over the past 2 days.

[wandacleo]

I've been frustrated, sad, amused, and angry many time before, but today I feel deep and abiding shame at this fandom. Going off half-cocked is nothing new, rushing in defense of Clay is old news, hyper-criticism of Clay likewise, but to participate in deep analysis of a news item that was presented as a "maybe," and then to turn around and blame a single individual for it with no benefit of the doubt--it's disgusting. The strong voices should have been saying, "hold off," "give this a little time," "wait and see if it's true," instead of joining in to energize and shape the discourse of criticism of Clay for agreeing to the tour. Then some of the same people are ripping Kim to shreds now that we know he did not, giving her no benefit of the doubt when we of all people should be aware of the complexities of media and PR actions. The cruelty towards Kim as a performer and a person, the smug self-importance of statements implying that "Clay is too good for them," or "their fans should be thrilled that they have this opportunity to tour with someone so superior to them," are simply offensive. The face of this fandom has become bitter and ugly and off-putting. If it is affecting some of us, who are huge fans of the man, so deeply, I can only imagine how it must look to outsiders. Maybe I've just been blinded to some extent, for all my prior fussing about it, but today it has really hit me hard.

Amen

[laljeterfan]

jmh- in response to your post above, I so agree- it is embarassing. They are now also discussing ways that Team Clay can go about publically denying this information- as if it is really of that much importance to anyone outside of the fandom- and also trying to decide how we, as Clay's fans, can go about getting the information out there that this was a false story. I really don't get the importance of this little blurb to the world at large- and I guess it boils down to the "people will not view Clay as cool, successful, etc, if he has to resort to this kind of tour" crap. Not to mention all of the discussions about how if it were to true, how he would have had to negotiate to somehow get higher billing, because he has sold millions of cd's and toured successfully x # of times, yada, yada, yada. Sometimes I just have to shake my head, and wonder why Clay keeps doing it. Hopefully, all of the good outweighs all of the bad- I just wish that the fandom didn't ever contribute to the "bad" part of it.

Edited September 12, 2007 by laljeterfan

[wandacleo]

jmh- in response to your post above, I so agree- it is embarassing. They are now also discussing ways that Team Clay can go about publically denying this information- as if it is really of that much importance to anyone outside of the fandom- and also trying to decide how we, as Clay's fans, can go about getting the information out there that this was a false story. I really don't get the importance of this little blurb to the world at large- and I guess it boils down to the "people will not view Clay as cool, successful, etc, if he has to resort to this kind of tour" crap. Not to mention all of the discussions about how if it were to true, how he would have had to negotiate to somehow get higher billing, because he has sold millions of cd's and toured successfully x # of times, yada, yada, yada. Sometimes I just have to shake my head, and wonder why Clay keeps doing it. Hopefully, all of the good outweighs all of the bad- I just wish that the fandom didn't ever contribute to the "bad" part of it.

I don't mean to be a post whore (honestly), but OH MY GOD!!!! Please tell me people aren't busy emailing to set the record straight. I'm sorry. Other than a few Claymates, who gives a shit about this????? These people are lunatics.

[Scarlett]

Thanks, couchie! {{{hugs}}} It's been great to know you and everyone here and thank you to you and ansa for building us a nice home. *Snuggles up some more and tucks in the blanket all 'round.*

Thank you too, keepingfaith. I'm had to stop at WY but will finish WPB soon.

I hope I'm not blowtorching puppies by writing this, though...

I'm generally happy about Clay -- I think the angriest look I ever gave him was when he took the camera in Fort Myers and that didn't last more than a second or two -- but I still also generally happy about Clayland. Call me Anne Frank or something but when I'm tempted to tell someone "it's only a tour" or "it's only 1 note in 1 show" or "it's only an album and besides I kinda like it", I usually end up saying to myself, "it's just another fan" or "it's just another board".

I keep the Food Network on as my white noise, and there's a commercial that's been running lately about a girl who comes home to visit with her mom and while she's there, their cranky neighbor swings by to complain that garden was overgrown and that there was going to be a wedding at her place, etc. You can tell by the looks that the mom and daughter exchange that this has been going on all of their lives and that there's really nothing wrong with the garden. The ending is not what I expected.

I don't mean to suggest that anyone should tolerate abuse (unless the abuser keeps you supplied with pit tickets, yikes that means she get to hit me in Omaha too), but that commercial and others aired by the Foundation for a Better Life give me hope.

[Couch Tomato]

Unfortunately there is nothing to be done. The "respect for other posters" and "no board on board" talk means no self examination, no dialogue, no fixing things for next time. Also unfortunately, since Kim is to blame nobody feels they did anything wrong at all. I'm sorry but the "yay, so glad to be wrongs" after your wallowing and disgusting posts just wouldn't cut it with me.

Self examination is good. What would I do differently. I'll think about that but I frankly just tried to keep an open mind. I came up with pros and cons and just waited for the truth to come out. But the ones to really tell us how we did here are the ones who absolutely hated the idea. I know some feelings were hurt. I also saw people trying to assure others that it wasn't the liking or not liking but the OTT reaction. I know I saw it coming as soon as I saw the first report. But still, Puddins, and merriee, and Jenna and aikim and even others who absolutely didn't like this idea -- you're the ones to help us fix anything we need to fix for next time.

Wah, going to the weight thread. I have gained 5 pounds since last month! WHYYYYYYYY.

[KAndre]

See, now I'm gonna have to watch the Food Network for some surprise ending commercial. Dang you, Scarlett!

Gimme a hint: Is there decapitation involved?

And Couchie's right - we (I) do need to hear if I (we) could have expressed myself better - because I know I am very fond of a bitter kind of humor...

[Couch Tomato]

They are now also discussing ways that Team Clay can go about publically denying this information- as if it is really of that much importance to anyone outside of the fandom- and also trying to decide how we, as Clay's fans, can go about getting the information out there that this was a false story. .

WTF, this is a non story. Just a few gossip bloggers and DJs. Clay fans leaving their holes to spread the word about how Clay is just so superior would do more harm than good.

Scarlett..you are wise. Yeah I'm still in the throw their clothes in a heap and burn them part of the divorce. Hopefully I'll be at the point where I can remember the good times soon. I was almost there actually before this latest ruckus.

And do we need a spoiler thread for commercials? I wanna know. heh.

[champion124]

Self examination is good. What would I do differently. I'll think about that but I frankly just tried to keep an open mind. I came up with pros and cons and just waited for the truth to come out. But the ones to really tell us how we did here are the ones who absolutely hated the idea. I know some feelings were hurt. I also saw people trying to assure others that it wasn't the liking or not liking but the OTT reaction. I know I saw it coming as soon as I saw the first report. But still, Puddins, and merriee, and Jenna and aikim and even others who absolutely didn't like this idea -- you're the ones to help us fix anything we need to fix for next time.

[Stargazer]

I really really love this picture!!!

[lightmyfire]

I've been frustrated, sad, amused, and angry many time before, but today I feel deep and abiding shame at this fandom. Going off half-cocked is nothing new, rushing in defense of Clay is old news, hyper-criticism of Clay likewise, but to participate in deep analysis of a news item that was presented as a "maybe," and then to turn around and blame a single individual for it with no benefit of the doubt--it's disgusting. The strong voices should have been saying, "hold off," "give this a little time," "wait and see if it's true," instead of joining in to energize and shape the discourse of criticism of Clay for agreeing to the tour. Then some of the same people are ripping Kim to shreds now that we know he did not, giving her no benefit of the doubt when we of all people should be aware of the complexities of media and PR actions. The cruelty towards Kim as a performer and a person, the smug self-importance of statements implying that "Clay is too good for them," or "their fans should be thrilled that they have this opportunity to tour with someone so superior to them," are simply offensive. The face of this fandom has become bitter and ugly and off-putting. If it is affecting some of us, who are huge fans of the man, so deeply, I can only imagine how it must look to outsiders. Maybe I've just been blinded to some extent, for all my prior fussing about it, but today it has really hit me hard.

ETA: lilyshine, if only I didn't hate cooked carrots...I think that looks really good.

I agree with you in respect to the present face of this fandom. I would define it as you have.

Having said that...and you know I have a deep respect for your commentary even when the two of us have opposing view points or thought processes.....

And it appears that I am alone on an island....Kim is responsible for her quoted statements to Billboard.

Not her management, not her label. She is responsible for providing the press this story. Her credibility perhaps will take a hit, but I don't believe she deserves a beating. Kim made a mistake.

I don't have knowledge as to who the strong voices were or the leaders in this case.

I logged onto Billboard which is a weekly ritual (normally Thursday nights) for me on Monday night as my life has been one hectic mess. I read the breaking news releases. I didn't log onto the OFC or here. Tuesday morning, I logged onto the OFC and it is there were I viewed the scan of the printed version of the publication dated the 15th. At that point, I concluded that Kim had interviewed with Billboard and issued direct statements in respect to this issue in great detail. This wasn't a case in which an entertainment blog was the source. Two specific Billboard articles...I came to the opinion that this trio tour was the real deal. The printed statements were assigned exclusively to Kim, not a management or label representative. I later learned of the press release which they are responsible for. Her management and Curb made a mistake. I don't know if Billboard attempted to contact Clay's or Ruben's managment teams and were unsuccessful or not. If they didn't, they should have. Personally, I don't believe that this interview took place months ago as I first learned of it in the breaking news section.

We all live and learn...

Edited September 12, 2007 by lightmyfire

[Guest Toots]

I think the Evil Houston Posse interviews for positions on the team. You guys all rock!!!

[Couch Tomato]

I guess I never read it as a done deal - just something she wanted to happen and she had talked about with Ruben and Clay and how it would be. Should she have done that with a reporter? Maybe not. Bu I still don't know the details like whether he interviewed her for an hour and this was one of a plethoria of things she mentioned - then he later went hmmm..this is great- I'll lead with it. But even so, I still don't think the punishment fit the crime. We agree on that for sure. As for Curb, I'll go with Bottle's explanation.

[cindilu2]

Kim is or isn't 100% responsible? Who really knows? Not me, that's for sure. But the posts I've read about her, and I have only barely skimmed the very tamest of boards, are catty and bitchy to the extreme. I hope that the people are writing them, blanketed in the knowledge that they have a right to express their opinions, remember that the next time they are outraged over opinions expressed about Clay.

(and now I will add, without the slightest bit of remorse for my blatant hypocrisy... Skanky Griffin won a fucking Emmy???? arrrrrrrrrgh. Isn't that one of the signs of the apocalypse? excuse me while I vomit)

Edited September 12, 2007 by cindilu2

[jmh123]

I hear you Scarlett, and I know that the moment I start pointing fingers I'm pointing one at myself. It's one of the reasons I bit my tongue and didn't say anything last night, and maybe I am just less wise this morning after seeing one too many anti-Kim posts from someone I wouldn't have expected that from.

I'm glad you still have a great attitude about the boards, and hope you'll keep posting that you feel that way. Sadly, I just don't. But I will, as champion124 also suggested, keep looking inside for some answers. I do know that it's very unlikely that my posting here that I'm ashamed of the fandom is going to change anyone's mind, anymore than laughing about being appalled at the Poddies did, and may just alienate more people and close more ears to anything I might say. I know one could argue that saying something somewhere and and in some way that might make a difference and might change someone's mind would be preferable, and I did try, for a really long time. I've also held my tongue many times, as the hundreds of "post not posted" notepad files on my hard drive can attest to. I'm just really at a loss here, but I will keep searching for a solution for myself.

I hear you, LMF, and I have no problem with your posts about this here. I accept that Kim has a responsibility, I just don't know the specifics, and until I do, I can't judge her (and I don't think you have). I don't accept that she had ulterior motives, or that she needs to be talked about in the absolutely nasty way that I've seen her talked about the last couple of days.

Edited September 12, 2007 by jmh123

[merryclay]

What's a Poddie?

[aikim]

Couchie I will be the first to admit that I can be very sensitive to criticism and tend to take way too many things personally and that is something I need to work on and can't blame it entirely on experiences at other boards; it goes back before Clay was even a mote in Vernon's eye (I was going to say glint but I don't think he every was)...so please don't feel that any of you need to censor yourself on my account...I enjoy the conversation here very much...common sense in the fandom...what a concept!

Kim

[jmh123]

See, now I'm gonna have to watch the Food Network for some surprise ending commercial. Dang you, Scarlett!

Gimme a hint: Is there decapitation involved?

And Couchie's right - we (I) do need to hear if I (we) could have expressed myself better - because I know I am very fond of a bitter kind of humor...

KAndre, I have to say that I love the way you express yourself and wish I were better at really good humor instead of serious pedantic stuff--I'd rather read your responses than mine to stupid stuff. You're witty and you make people laugh, and, as you've said before, you don't discriminate. You'll make fun of anyone.

Edited September 12, 2007 by jmh123

[KAndre]

I had to go back and read the Billboard article - because my first impression was a "maybe-hopefully-perhaps" - and without the brouhaha on the boards would not have though twice about it. One of the things I have learned from the fandom it that probably was a twenty minute interview with Kim - and more likely than not 95% of it was about her and her along. They quote her three times, two of which aren't even complete statements. It also would be nice to know when this interview took place.

I guess my problem with a lot of this is frankly that I don't see what she said as being this horrible, horrible thing. A number of fans did a lot of extrapolation into armageddon, some fans just didn't like the idea - but in and of itself, I don't see the horrible thing she is supposed to have said. The possibility that she sees herself the equal of Clay? In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Clay sees himself as the equal of many who outsell him.

Can anyone show me with facts that the suggestion of a tour with Kim and Ruben will somehow end Clay's career? Beyond that, what exactly did Kim do wrong?