#29: EEEEEEEEEEEE!!! It's really happening!

[Gibby]

And then...the camera pans back and we see that gorgeous hunkman become Clayton again--his long, lean legs sprawling all over the place, his knees knocking together and those boat feet splayed outward in unlikely angels in Converse sneakers!

BWAH! BWAH! :lmaosmiley-1:

God, I love that man.

Heeee, those feet crack me up, too. Now I'm wondering if he had on those sneakers during the actual album shoot!

Of course, I'm also feeling that way with some of what I've read throughout my 5 years in this fandom. It seems that some people still want to hold on to bitterness toward anyone who may have "hurt" Clay -- be it AI, KLo, Ripa, gossip reporters, etc. I personally find this bitterness woefully unattractive, and it truly does make me feel bad when I see it come out (such as the KLo tour blog entries). IMO, life's too short to hold onto grudges. I also believe (don't know it for a fact) that Clay feels the same way -- at least in public. While I do believe a few Coke machines have been beaten up over the years, he seems to be quite good at "letting go and letting God."

May we all learn from the master. *g*

Wow, do I ever agree with you about bitterness! I had a problem with bitterness several years ago (over issues having nothing to do with Clay). I eventually realized that the bitterness was a huge burden, and that it was hurting me a lot more than it hurt the people who hurt me. It was difficult to let go of it, but I finally 'let go and let God' and I feel so much better now.

And I've never felt that Clay's battles were my battles. He's a big boy and will take care of them himself, in his own way. So, what would the point be of being bitter toward people who were nasty to him? It would just make me unhappy. I'd rather enjoy his music and his -er- masculine attribues. Ya know, like broad shoulders, facial/chest hair, etc. What were YOU thinking I meant?

Videos are used more for the internet now. That is why even for ATDW Clay did those simple videos so that they can have something to show on the internet sites. That is what my girls watch on yout tube music videos and its how they discover new artists. If you have an interesting video that gets lots of hits on you tube...you get more people listening.

I agree with you 100% on this! My two teenaged dtrs. are constantly on youtube, watching videos of some sort or another, including music videos. However, if they find something they like, they usually download it right off of youtube without buying the album. Unless they REALLY love the artist, and then they somehow earn or find the money to buy the whole album!

It's a beautimous day here, too. Warm, but not hot. And I'm not scheduled to do anything in particular!!! Yay!! 'Course, I have TONS of stuf to do, but no rehearsals or performances, and I'm not working. So, I'm spending time on the internet, instead of doing the things on my to-do list!

Hi, Claygary! Thanks for checking in.

[HeidiHo]

Actually I really felt something wasn't quite right with the phone lines on final 3 night when only a few percentage points seperated the 3 contestants. I don't believe Kim was ever as popular as Ruben or Clay.

I hesitate to post at length about this because I don't remember how much of the info actually came out. I know there was some discussion about it a while after the show, and I think some commentary from AT&T. BUT, the problem wasn't with the phone lines themselves, IMO, but with how many phone lines they had. I posted (as did HD, I think) about this after the fact. I called it the Bathtub theory - all three contestants have a bathtub with a drain of a set size (ie. a number of phone lines). Now, when you are actually putting water in the tub at a rate that it doesn't drain, but starts filling up, the drain can only let so much water through at a given time. Presumably, all three drains are emptying at the same rate, give or take small fluctuations due to a variety of circumstances. So, what happens when the rate of water coming into the tub is so fast for all three that they all back up? Well, you could have Clay with a full tub, Ruben with a half full tub, and Kim with a quarter full tub - yet all three look the same from the drain end because the volume of water flowing out is statistically the same. That is why all three of them (and Clay and ruben on Finale night) appeared to have very close vote totals - the number of phone lines was not adequate, therefore not reflective of the actual number of fans of a given singer. You'll notice that they've apparently fixed this issues since then. I never thought it was a sign of conspiracy on finale night when the number kept changing between Ruben and Clay - I thought it more likely that they just didnt' know what the hell was going on. The difference between the two was statistically insignificant - it could have gone either way. It didn't even have to be a case of one of Clay's phone lines shutting down. It could have been a slower response on one line - that's how small the difference was, I think.

[Claygasm]

***CG licks her wounds and checks to see if there is any part of her not battered and bruised***

Well, Heidi Ho, I feel like I have just been taken to task by my teacher! Good thing I love ya!

I have rebuttals to almost everything you said but since I now feel like my opinion is worthless <snark> I'll shut up about that subject.

I'll just slink away now...... **sniff**

[cha cha trusty]

I don't want to spoiler this for anyone.... I'm with merriieeee - anything Clay is in I can't wait to see, hear, touch, or feel. (muski, do what you will!! heee! is this still pg 69?)

But I just had this one thought when I saw this screencap:

OMG!! He's borrowed Tyra's raincoat!!

I mean seriously! They look like they've gone shopping together and got matching raincoats!

:F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[Couch Tomato]

***CG licks her wounds and checks to see if there is any part of her not battered and bruised***

Well, Heidi Ho, I feel like I have just been taken to task by my teacher! Good thing I love ya!

I have rebuttals to almost everything you said but since I now feel like my opinion is worthless <snark> I'll shut up about that subject.

I'll just slink away now...... **sniff**

bwah..uh huh...you'll slink away alright. LOL I know you. You're turned on a bit..admit it. heee

God, I'm sick of working...it's so hard to keep your eye on the prize when it's perfect weather conditions out side.

[merrieeee]

God, I'm sick of working...it's so hard to keep your eye on the prize when it's perfect weather conditions out side.

It is a glorious day here today and I need to be doing all sorts of "stuff" but I'm not. I'm sitting on my back deck again enjoying the warmth.

It's funny but I now take certain things for granted that a few years ago would have been thought impossible. Sitting outside, surfing the net. listening to music and all wireless. Ain't technology grand? I have become so spoiled now.

Bye the way trench coats are the in item. They were shown a lot on the runways this spring. See our man is on the cutting edge again. Now if we could get him to throw away a few items.........well more than a few.

One moment he is hawt, sexy, studmuffin, GQ Clay and then in an instance he is goofy, endearing Clayton. I sometimes wonder if the fact that Clay has those Clay/Clayton moments, like in the webisode, is how he keeps his sanity.

Does that even make any sense?

[ivy]

I used to work in the development group for the Network Operations Center at AT&T. We put in the systems that monitored the land lines. Think NASA's control center on TV when spaceships are launched. It looked liked that with tables full of computer equipment and people in front of PCs, monitoring huge 3 x 4 foot (or 4 x 5 foot) screens at the front of the room. It was located in Bedminster NJ. I was there a few times as we did installations on weekends. We would fly out Saturday morning getting there before 7am or 8am and return late Sunday. [We stayed up all night Saturday night testing the install and returned home without stopping to rest at a hotel. I remember one trip driving to the Newark airport to return home long after dark late Sunday, and watching the planes as ribbons of lights in the sky taking off from the airport. It was amazing. you could see the lights moving up into the sky for miles almost perfectly aligned behind each other.] There are probably pictures on the internet somewhere too. I can't recall if the columns were 4 screens high or not with several in each row. For some reason, the number 45 sticks in my mind but that may be too many. On those screens we would show graphs and data flows. You could zoom in or out and switch to different cities and different views of the equipment shown in a graphical format. You could troubleshoot failed equipment and other problems.

I did some searching. You can see a picture here: http://www.corp.att.com/history/nethistory/management.html

I was thinking there were 45 screens but here is an excerpt from that article:

AT&T revamped and modernized the NOC in 1987, adding a 75-screen video wall where computer-driven support systems provided information on multiple layers and categories of network activity. Managers used computer systems and terminals to find detailed information on any switch or route in the network. They then used those same systems to issue instructions to any place in the network.

Here is another article with a picture of how the new system looks now. In my day it was much the same but probably smaller. Scroll down to in search of a company's soul:

http://www.ou.edu/class/prestech/articles/...fingCenters.htm

The land lines can be thought of as roads carrying traffic (phone calls) criss crossing across the country. Some have less traffic than others. When something fails, calls are blocked and cannot get through. If there are too many calls they cannot get through and calls are lost or rerouted. That night millions of calls were attempted. We used to reroute calls when there were problems or excessive calls. In those days (early 90s), if you were calling from say Cincinnati to Columbus, suppose there was a problem on the main line between Cincinnati and Columbus, we would reroute to get through. You would not know it, but the call could be routed through any point even as far away as NYC or LA.

There were at least 3 major companies who lost thousands of calls that night. There was even an article about it several months later with some high-level statistics. There was even an article about some Church receiving a ton of calls for Clay. The bathtub theory is correct.

I tried the entire time myself and did not get one call through. What is funny is that many fans checked Ruben's lines that night when they could not get through thus recording votes for Ruben. Ruben is a nice guy. It all worked out in the end. Nothing can ever be proved. They had the data in the databases had they had chosen to pull it out at least AT&T had it. I don't know about the other companies. I imagine it is long gone by now. I haven't thought about this for a couple of years now.

[Cotton]

OK if you had your choice, what is the one thing you want to see Clay do to promote this CD?

I would LOVE to see him host SNL!

We know he's perfectly capable of the comedy. I think he could do a killer opening.

But of course, I'd want him to sing, too! But after seeing him do the Kimmel fight - and after seeing SPAMalot - the man can do ANY damned thing Micheals (?) can come up with for him to do!

Re: Vincent:

I used to be a big Groban fan - nothing like my Clay fandom, but I did visit his fan site a few times. And used to have his CD playing in my car ALL. THE. TIME.

I used to try to sing along with Vincent - I love the song. But I could NEVER make that particular entrance. It's very strange (therefore difficlut) timing. So I knew immediately that Clay had missed an entrance, not forgotten lyrics. I think he handled it professionally, coming in at the first musical opportunity and getting back on track.

My beef with TPTB adding a verse - is that HE NEVER GOT TO REHEARSE IT! I think that is just wrong, wrong, wrong! I heard at after the show was long over (It might have been when talking to Diane at the Bobblehead night, but don't hold me to that.) that the show was running short and they added the verse, not that they didn't want him to do such a short version. But the short version is what Clay said on AIR? I haven't seen that one yet BECAUSE OF BASEBALL & NASCAR! pffft!

Anyway, I don't think Clay would talk about the show running short even if it were true, because that would be more like whining and blaming the show. But that's just MHO. I did talk to Diane at Bobblehead, there was one person between D and me that night. She talked about not liking him in black, that he was too skinny! heh She talked about him NEVER being in the bottom three.

One other cute thing she told me was something she observed when she and Faye went to Hollywood. She talked about how he was already being treated like a star. She said the minute he stepped off stage he was swarmed by people wanting to be near him - bringing him water, seeing if there was anything they could do for him, etc.

The man is a magnet. A super magnet. And I must be a rusty ol' bit of iron!

[bottlecap]

Been home from NYC for a bit, thanks to Northwest and the very kind Mr. laughn who piced us up from the airport, and I'm so tired I can hardly see straight. I will just bullet point a few things for now, as you've probably had better and more complete recaps of Friday and Saturday's shows already from fans who didn't have to pay $5.00 for 25 minutes of internet time.

I had a fabulous time in New York, and despite what laughn will try to tell you, I did occasionally eat something besides a hot dog from the vendor on the corner near the hotel. (Yes, having a hot dog from a cart was one of the things on my list of "Things to do while in NYC.")

Speaking of the hotel, the walls were very, very brown. I don't even know what else to tell you about the place we stayed, other than that. It was ...interesting.

Spam was fantastic. I thought there was no way that Tom and Rick could be as funny as the recaps had been describing them, but I was wrong. I would follow those guys to other shows, provided they had featured parts. Rick's Knights of Ni for the Saturday matinee schtick was to sing "La Bamba", and it just went on and on to gales of laughter from the audience. Tom's physical comedy as Prince Herbert was beyond amazing.

Oh, and that singer Idoly dude who played Sir Robin? Was pretty cute. More on him later, when I have more energy to be coherent. I just can't imagine, in his wildest dreams, Clay ever, ever thought he would earn wild applause for pretending to soil his pants. Talk about surreal...

Got to go finish unpacking. There's no place like home.... :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[goldarngirl]

I truly wish they would not show full photos of Clay from head to toe. Seriously. Those feet should not be highlighted. The size isn't as bad as the way they turn out. That is what makes them unattractive to most people, I would venture. Of course I'm drunk, so what do I know..................

Heh, bite your tongue! Some of us have a foot fetish....be kind.

Somehow I just knew there would be a post by you after that I figured I just had to wait. Believe me Clayzorback, luckiest1 knows of which she speaks.

[cha cha trusty]

Of course, I'm also feeling that way with some of what I've read throughout my 5 years in this fandom. It seems that some people still want to hold on to bitterness toward anyone who may have "hurt" Clay -- be it AI, KLo, Ripa, gossip reporters, etc. I personally find this bitterness woefully unattractive, and it truly does make me feel bad when I see it come out (such as the KLo tour blog entries). IMO, life's too short to hold onto grudges. I also believe (don't know it for a fact) that Clay feels the same way -- at least in public. While I do believe a few Coke machines have been beaten up over the years, he seems to be quite good at "letting go and letting God."

For some reason this reminded me of an incident at my work one time about 10 yrs ago. (I don't work there any more.) But there was some kind of altercation/rudeness involving one of the Asst. Managers and one of the employees, and I later in the day commented upon to the Asst Mgr and asked what he was going to do about it later. He said, "Pretend like it didn't happen."

That seems to be what some fans just can't do, because it involves letting go of whatever grievances you have with anyone perceived to have "hurt Clay." I'd much rather just knock over a few coke machines and "pretend like it didn't happen."

:F_05BL17blowkiss:

eta: I was right - the AI Rewind that recorded at 3 am is billed as "3 to 2," but it actually is the "4 to 3" show. I have to wait until 10 pm tonight!

[laughn]

I had a fabulous time in New York, and despite what laughn will try to tell you, I did occasionally eat something besides a hot dog from the vendor on the corner near the hotel. (Yes, having a hot dog from a cart was one of the things on my list of "Things to do while in NYC.")

...and here, every time you got that lustful, hungry, predatory look in your eye, I thought you were just thinking of Clay...

:F_05BL17blowkiss:

[bottlecap]

MMMMMMM.... spicy mustard....

[HeidiHo]

And you know, Clayzr, that I feel the same but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The TV show "American Idol" had no stake in the winner's success. Their stake was in the show's ratings. I also believe there are pretty stringent controls over "cheating" on contest type shows.

Actually, in that 19E is part of the same company as 19M, which managed all of the winners and many of the runners up (including Clay, for a bit), they do have a stake in the success of the winners and those they managed. However, that speaks more to a LACK of cheating, IMO, in terms of the show. I think they try to steer it a bit, try to tell the public who they should like, etc. But lets face it – AI would NOT have picked Taylor Hicks as the winner. And I don’t know that they would have picked Kelly.

All that said, it is a HUGE conflict of interest because the ratings are more important than the success of the winner and runner up. So, when the winner or runner up want to do something outside recording (say – making a ford commercial for mucho dinero), 19M is managing them and vetting deals, but they’ll want to make sure that they don’t do anything that is opposite to the goals of 19E’s show – like make a BMW commercial instead. There were very strong rumors going around that this is how Clay got out of his contract with 19M – that they had turned something down that would have been in his best interest (some kind of commercial I think the rumor said) without even consulting him because it went against 19E’s goals. Clay has/had a high powered attorney. Personally, I think this is one of the reasons for the attitude you see from the judges toward Clay post-AI – I think they don’t like the fact that he is so freakin’ smart and savvy. And he used it against them. It was either something like that or that 19M was taking a ridiculous percentage (wasn’t it like 60%?) and his attorney made the case of that being unreasonable this is me speculating.

But the part I really disagree with you is about the friendships between Kim, Ruben and Clay. I feel positive at least in the beginning that Kim and Clay's friendship was genuine.

I agree. It’s only recently that I think it may have changed and I think the problem (if there is one) is Kim – definitely NOT Ruben.

Well, Heidi Ho, I feel like I have just been taken to task by my teacher!

Yeah, I get that way sometimes. It sounds cold, maybe, but it’s never personal. At least, HERE it’s not. <g>

There were at least 3 major companies who lost thousands of calls that night. There was even an article about it several months later with some high-level statistics. There was even an article about some Church receiving a ton of calls for Clay. The bathtub theory is correct.

I tried the entire time myself and did not get one call through. What is funny is that many fans checked Ruben's lines that night when they could not get through thus recording votes for Ruben. Ruben is a nice guy. It all worked out in the end. Nothing can ever be proved. They had the data in the databases had they had chosen to pull it out at least AT&T had it. I don't know about the other companies. I imagine it is long gone by now. I haven't thought about this for a couple of years now.

Okay, thanks – I knew there was something more specific that I was referring to, but my brain doesn’t retain some details occasionally.

Why is my quote thingy not working??

[Couch Tomato]

Why is my quote thingy not working??

Hey looks good to me.

[FromClaygary]

I don't want to spoiler this for anyone.... I'm with merriieeee - anything Clay is in I can't wait to see, hear, touch, or feel. (muski, do what you will!! heee! is this still pg 69?)

But I just had this one thought when I saw this screencap:

OMG!! He's borrowed Tyra's raincoat!!

I mean seriously! They look like they've gone shopping together and got matching raincoats!

:F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss:

HAHAHAHAHA!! I wondered what it was about that coat that was bugging me....I think that's it!! I know you're joking, but it actually does look a bit too small for him in the shoulders/arms!

ETA: or perhaps there was a little coughclothingmixupcough and he got the wrong one back on?

[aikim]

Intermission report from cablegirl:

No Hannah tonight. Emily someone is the replacement. She is good, but different than Hannah, and much smaller. She wears a completely different dress during "Find Your Grail" than Hannah.

She said the crowd is good but more subdued than this afternoon.

Theatre looked pretty full, but hard to tell because she can't really see into the balcony. There may be some open seats on the side.

Clay is doing really well, of course, and is very funny.

His screaming during "run away" is something else!

He seems pretty happy and pretty on tonight.

Galahad is still sweating alot - LOL

"song that goes like this" seemed different because it's the two new people - still a newer Galahad and the Hannah replacement. Her voice is not as strong so it sounds very different.

[cha cha trusty]

I don't want to spoiler this for anyone.... I'm with merriieeee - anything Clay is in I can't wait to see, hear, touch, or feel. (muski, do what you will!! heee! is this still pg 69?)

But I just had this one thought when I saw this screencap:

OMG!! He's borrowed Tyra's raincoat!!

I mean seriously! They look like they've gone shopping together and got matching raincoats!

:F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss:

HAHAHAHAHA!! I wondered what it was about that coat that was bugging me....I think that's it!! I know you're joking, but it actually does look a bit too small for him in the shoulders/arms!

ETA: or perhaps there was a little coughclothingmixupcough and he got the wrong one back on?

Well, I actually checked and the buttons are on different sides and hers doesn't have epaulettes. That doesn't discount the "shopping together" theory tho!!

Off to watch "The Big Give!" and wait for Idol Rewind! :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[duckyvee]

To everyone coming home.... have a safe trip. JAMAR where are you?

JaMar's in NY until sometime tomorrow (Monday). She's at Spamalot tonight. I took the train into the city to spend the day with her yesterday and we got seats for last night's show at the last minute. Had a great time!

:Boss:

[Marilyon98]

Didn't watch rewind since it doesn't air until tomorrow but I really did not like Clay's "Vincent". And I remember thinking at the time he forgot the words before the judges said anything (which knowing what we know now really wouldn't be that hard to believe!). I thought it was a sleep inducing performance. I will never believe having him sing it was part of any conspiracy. He pulled that song out of the bowl. As to adding something to the song and that messed him up - again, its part of TV and the time they needed to fill and in the end he still messed it up. He may not have forgotten the words, but he still messed it up.

Just wanted to respond to this- I thought as you did, until I read this:

The conjecture started again last week, when the three contestants each sang a song chosen at random from a bowl containing hundreds of choices. Kimberley miraculously chose “Band of Gold,” a number she’d performed on the show before. What are the chances of that? It turns out that the “random” round was much more stage-managed than it appeared. Despite all those papers in the bowls, there were only four songs per contestant, all carefully chosen to suit the singers’ vocal style and range. “There wasn’t ‘The Macarena’ in there or anything,” says Lythgoe. “It wasn’t going to be stupid.”

IDOLFORUMS from May 2003

So the choice of "Vincent" was not as random as it looked. And he messed it up because it was changed an hour and a half before the show- so even though the lyrics were on the telepromplter, the cue as to when to come in was lost on him due to lack of rehearsal.

I have to be honest, I watched rewind last night. And I switched the channel when he came out-I just couldnt watch it again, even though it was not THAT bad.

That whole article at idolforums was very revealing. Of course, we KNEW they steered the outcome in the direction they wanted.

But I think Clay has done alright since then.

and he is awfully HOT!!

[Claygasm]

Intermission report from cablegirl:

No Hannah tonight. Emily someone is the replacement. She is good, but different than Hannah, and much smaller. She wears a completely different dress during "Find Your Grail" than Hannah.

She said the crowd is good but more subdued than this afternoon.

Theatre looked pretty full, but hard to tell because she can't really see into the balcony. There may be some open seats on the side.

Clay is doing really well, of course, and is very funny.

His screaming during "run away" is something else!

He seems pretty happy and pretty on tonight.

Galahad is still sweating alot - LOL

"song that goes like this" seemed different because it's the two new people - still a newer Galahad and the Hannah replacement. Her voice is not as strong so it sounds very different.

Emily is Emily Tsu and my lurker friend and I loved her! We actually preferred her to Hannah! Very different from Hannah but personally I preferred her interpretation of LOTL.

But we have come to conclusion we are truly alone in the fandom on this one.

ETA: Marilyn, IMO it was still fair and IMO he still messed it up and even if he hadn't, after just watching Rewind, I have to say it was not good. It was, as Simon said, dreary. I am sure his 4 songs were all ballads, but you know what? They were - and still are - his forte so that should have been to his advantage, not to his disadvantage.

After watching Rewind I came to the same conclusion I did all those years ago. Kim IMO did the best that week with Ruben and Clay about tied. She did not have the fan base they did so she went home.

I will NEVER believe there was any conspiracy - especially during the top 3 - because all TPTB were interested in were ratings and it was obvious that the biggest ratings would come from a Clay/Ruben finale.

Something Ansa mentioned earlier about the difference in the online Clay fans and Ruben fans. I am pretty sure the online fandoms of these two during AI2 were a minute percentage of those who watched AI2 and those who voted on AI2. To this day we always say that Clay's online fans are just a small percentage of his fans. We say he couldn't sell 500,000 copies of ATDW with just "us". Well, back in the day, there were even fewer fans online. So the reactions of the ones online could not really be representative of all those watching and voting.

Personally I believe it was a fair vote and a fair competition that was over 5 years ago and, IMO, this fandom needs to let it go already!

[Couch Tomato]

Cindilu sent me these two pretty wallpapers..

and wide screen

ok hope this works

[laljeterfan]

ETA: Marilyn, IMO it was still fair and IMO he still messed it up and even if he hadn't, after just watching Rewind, I have to say it was not good. It was, as Simon said, dreary. I am sure his 4 songs were all ballads, but you know what? They were - and still are - his forte so that should have been to his advantage, not to his disadvantage.

Not quite sure how he could have changed the song up to make it less "dreary". It's not the kind of song you can speed up without totally bastardizing the song and the meaning behind it. Vocally, I think Clay did a nice job with the song.

As for the "ethics" of changing his song at the last minute- you can't tell me that TPTB didn't know until the last minute how much of the song was going to be sung. To wait until the last minute to change it- just all kinds of wrong IMO>

[Thankful4Clay]

Something Ansa mentioned earlier about the difference in the online Clay fans and Ruben fans. I am pretty sure the online fandoms of these two during AI2 were a minute percentage of those who watched AI2 and those who voted on AI2. To this day we always say that Clay's online fans are just a small percentage of his fans. We say he couldn't sell 500,000 copies of ATDW with just "us". Well, back in the day, there were even fewer fans online. So the reactions of the ones online could not really be representative of all those watching and voting.

Personally I believe it was a fair vote and a fair competition that was over 5 years ago and, IMO, this fandom needs to let it go already!

I was not an intense online fan during AI2. When I voted for Clay, I voted maybe ten times. I had NO idea people were voting for the entire two hours.

Now, take the thousands of fans online and add up the number of votes generated over two hours, and I do think that they could have made a difference.

I really do think the majority of the fandom has let it go already. AI Rewind is bringing it all back and that is why it is being discussed. The passion that we had about this at the end of AI2 was out of this world. I don't believe most people are still passionate about this.

Clay has risen above the results and so have most of us.

[Couch Tomato]

I definitely think the emotional sting is gone which means to me people are over it for the most part...doesn't mean they're going to suddenly say...oh yeah, it was all fair and square. That will never happen. I think it will pop up for discussion every now and then.

But CG.. you'll think Clay fans are damn near normal if you go read the TWoP conspiracy thread. Makes us look like amateurs.

Yep Thankful hee I should have just read you first.