# 10 It isn't so easy to get your knickers off when they're in a knot.

[keepingfaith]

Isn't Kansas the state where the political muscle of the churches banned the teaching of evolution in public schools? And this is a large non-denominational, right-wing, anti-choice church? (well, probably everything in Kansas is anti-choice). That Clay is singing in church doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I think his Christmas music fits well in church. But this particular type of church? Not for me, baby. If the venue makes a dime off this concert, not for me.

However, if it's a benefit for Kansas tornado victims, and the church isn't profiting, then that's a different story. But I need to know more about this one.

[cindilu2]

I think I'll angst over this tour before I worry about the next one.

I'm pretty sure the venue benefits in some way from everything that happens there, even if it's only covering its expenses. Not much truly happens for 100% charity in this world.

I'm just happy that Clay will be exposed to another group of new fans (a la the SCC appearance). It's all good.

Edited May 30, 2007 by cindilu2

[JennaZ]

I think I'll angst over this tour before I worry about the next one.

LOL. I'm with you on this one, cindilu2.

[Couch Tomato]

I'm living in some sort of ground hog day. Every time I try to post YSRN's PM to me from yesterday pops up on my screen. hee

With this church, it will be easier to know what they stand for and what it supports. But I have been to so many clay concerts out of town and all kinds of places and all kinds of halls. I have no clue where the money goes after I pay for my ticket or whether it pays for issues I would support if I knew or wouldn't . My guess is both. I guess it helps that I'm sort of a slacker in this case. Yeah I care about recycling. But I will still eat at a place that puts its food in stryofoam. LOL.And I worked at one time for a recycling center and my boss had a real problem with that. I'm very apathetic and cynical about politics and for the next year I will hate all demos and repubs alike. Hate the process.So I commend those with commitments. I know if Clay was playing somewhere I wanted to go, I'd be hard pressed to say no.

Hey Jenna!!

[ldyjocelyn]

I think I'll angst over this tour before I worry about the next one.

Heh. Good one!

[muskifest]

I think I'll angst over this tour before I worry about the next one.

Heh. Good one!

Yeah, but I'm still enjoying visions of dangling carrots and capped cucumbers NOW!

[KAndre]

I don't have a lot to say because I'm one of those not planning on doing Witchita - unless it's something special I just ain't going.

And the joys of living in a capitalistic society - don't like what that venue is talking about, don't go - I have a lot of lines I don't cross. I just hope this heads off some of the"I was blindsided" and "how dare he sing religious songs in a secular event". Though it would be funny if he decided "Touch" was christmassy and wailed it out in the nave!

[cindilu2]

I think I'll angst over this tour before I worry about the next one.

Heh. Good one!

Yeah, but I'm still enjoying visions of dangling carrots and capped cucumbers NOW!

[Claygasm]

I will be the first to admit I hardly research who is profiting from each of Clay's concerts, but if I went to a venue's website and found public statements of their views and those views were in direct conflict with my own, as is the case with this church in Kansas, I could not in good faith give them any of my money. Its the same reason I refuse to buy Domino's pizza. This church has a newletter on their site that is filled with IMO so much hate and intolerance its, well, let's just say its not very Christian! And from things Clay has said, I suspect its not his kind of Christianity! If this church were in my own backyard, I would not go to this concert.

That said, I truly believe we know more about this venue than Clay does. I keep remembering his remark on Kimmel where he said "they" just tell him where to go and he goes! I would like to think he would be appalled at some of this church's tenents. I don't know that to be true, but I would like to think it.

I also do not think this signals any change in direction for Clay as far as his career is concerned. I don't think this is a trend for the Christmas tour and in and of itself it is not causing me any angst. I have enough of that in my real life right now, so its the last thing I will give myself when it comes to Clay's Christmas tour! But, any time I see words of intolerance and hatred like I saw on that church's website, well, that always causes me angst - and a great deal of sadness. And the only thing I can do about it when I see it is to do anything I can to not support it.

Unfortunately since I had no desire to go to Kansas anyway, I guess my choosing not to go won't make any difference.

That said, I have been largely MIA lately (just pretend you all noticed, 'kay?). I have been living with my stomach in knots the last week or so. I am not usually one to post about what is going on in my real life when its not good, but I just feel like I - and my family - could use lots of good thoughts and energy right now. In the midst of starting the beginning of the end of our business and facing unemployment and my father facing the debt this business has accumulated in the past few years, we are all waiting anxiously the results of some medical tests on my father. The worst case scenario is really bad, but chances are that will not be the case. Still, to say my mother, father and I are scared to death would be an understatement. Not that there is ever a good time for something like this to happen, but this couldn't be a worse time! I swear sometimes I am going to lose what little is left of my mind! So if you all could offer up some good thoughts and send good karma his way, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm sure everything will be ok, but its still mucho scary.

Thanks.

[Ansamcw]

Totally respect those people that say they rather skip this concert because they don't want to support this church and their political stance with their money. I say everyone must follow their conscience on this. I also totally respect Clay's right to sing in this Church. One appearance does not define him and his own politics.

I don't know if he is pro-choice or pro-life but its possible he is in the fence on this like I am. I grew up in a predominantly Catholic country, went to Catholic school. When I grew up I firmly believed in pro-life and I didn't know anyone who is pro-choice. Since moving to Canada...I have learned more about the pro-choice stance and at this point I cannot say I disagree either. When I think of Clay's background...its very possible he is pro-life or that a lot of his friends and family are pro-life...and so it may not present a moral dilemma for him to support this Church. at this point I'm sure he is aware of the risk of using this venue. I'm sure he would love it if everyone of his fans can come but if not...maybe he will expand his fanbase to people in this community. I'm sure he will have lots of other venues that are more politically neutral.

eta: AWWW (((Claygasm)))) thanks for sharing...cos I know it can lighten the burden somewhat if it is shared with friends... good Karma, thoughts, energy and prayers going your way. Please keep us posted.

Also ...good point on the possibility he personally does not know anything about this Church, we just don't know.

[ldyjocelyn]

That said, I have been largely MIA lately (just pretend you all noticed, 'kay?).

Actually, I HAD noticed...and I'll be thinking about you and your family. Keep us posted if you feel up to it, 'K?

[Couch Tomato]

CG, when it rains it pours doesn't it? I will send good vilbes your way for your family.

ADMINS make it stop. Please I keep getting a repeat PMs. Oh I'm an admin. That's right. I should figure it out. Never mind.

[KAndre]

See, you're an AD admin. That's why the board is torturing you.

TOO LATE! I SAW IT! HA HA HA HA!

I like being a regular ol' admin.

{{{Claygasm and 'gasm Dad and 'gasm family}}}

And Claygasm, I appreciate you telling your reasons for objecting - I like to understand the reasoning so I can join in or not as needed.

[muskifest]

Lord! (heh)...I just read some of the posts on the OFC thread about this Kansas venue. However, I also followed a link from there to read one of that church's newsletters-- Scary stuff...

Anyhoo....I posted this there:

I have two hopes for this particular concert:

1. That Clay looks out and sees lots of new and different faces--not only the same ones in the front rows that he usually does wherever he goes. I'd love to have him see lots of teenagers, men, AND women out there enjoying his incredible voice, quick wit and loving heart.(I'm remembering the audience in the video of Stephen Curtis Chapman's concert where Clay made a surprise appearnce.) I'd love to think that NEW people---whether it be regular members of this particular church or just others who live within a convenient distance who hear about it and are curious---might become new fans.

2. That there's amazing Clack! I'm selfish and petty that way.

Anyone who knows me knows I'm not a fan of institutionalized spirituality, regardless of its name. I AM a fan of Clay Aiken and beautiful music, however. Clay's a big boy (heh)and I'll leave it up to him to either agree or refuse to play at any particular venue for whatever reason floats his boat. Just as I'm sure he leaves it up to everyone whether or not to pay money to be there if he does.

And I just want to give my buddy Claygasms lots and lots of HUGS and wonderful warm energy. 'Coss I love her and she's always there to give the same to whoever needs 'em whenever they need 'em. :F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss:

ETA:

That said, I truly believe we know more about this venue than Clay does. I keep remembering his remark on Kimmel where he said "they" just tell him where to go and he goes! I would like to think he would be appalled at some of this church's tenents. I don't know that to be true, but I would like to think it.

I thought the same thing, CG. I also remember Clay's info about his own search for understanding and "peace" with his Baptist church's tenets---how he left his church and tried something different---how he came back, not because he agreed with everything the church espouses, but because the feeling of family and familiarity and comfort was what he wanted. Clay is a very thoughtful human being---about life, I mean. Thing is, that he chooses to live more effectively as a "preacher" of any philosophy, religious or otherwise, rather than preach it--well, that makes it all good, to me. I can take what I want and leave the rest.

But I reserve the right to have first dibs on taking all the....yummy parts. heh. Speaking of which, thanks cindilu, for reminding me that although bananas ain't veggies, they COULD be cucumbers in disguise!

Edited May 30, 2007 by muskifest

[Clayzorback]

My head isn't going to explode if Clay books churches. It seems appropriate enough for Christmas music. I respect Claygasm and her stance. {{{{hugs and good wishes to you & your family}}} I also understand that Clay does not do the booking, his team does. He just shows up. I'm sure he has no idea, or time to research each venues political stance on things, as luckiest1 stated. I might blow a gasket, though, if his regular tours start getting booked in churches. Now that would be another story. LOL I was one who did not like Clay's regular concerts used to minister to me. I do not like anybody, and that includes Clay, to minister to me. It is a huge turn off to most people. I'm glad Clay stopped doing that. I'm not a big fan of the Christmas tours, in general. Not my cup of tea. So I won't be going to Wichita. However I realize it is Clay's cup of tea and I can choose to go or not to go. I attended one JNT and I enjoyed myself, but I am not going to spend around $200.00-$300.00 to travel to another one. If he comes to my home town, then I more than likely would go.

HaHaHa I think Clay already has enough far right wing conservative Christian fans. IMHO some of them are too involved in mothering , protecting, and fighting for him. To a point that it is hurting him. So I can't join the camp that thinks it is a good idea to attract more. LOL I'm sorry no offense intended to anyone. I'm not putting down Christians or religion. However, I would like to see him start appealing more to the mainstream sector of the population. I don't care what age. Attract people that aren't so OTT and want to involve themselves so much in his career. I would like to see fans who aren't pearl clutchers, and so full of angst and worry. Fans who don't have time to worry if some "nobody" in a blog somewhere hints at his sexuality as being gay. WE don't need anymore Detectives in the fandom. They have done enough damage already thank you very much.

[00lsee]

Waves to my eHP buddies and several other familiar faces... Just checking out the digs, yo!

[ldyjocelyn]

HaHaHa I think Clay already has enough far right wing conservative Christian fans. IMHO some of them are too involved in mothering , protecting, and fighting for him. To a point that it is hurting him.

Thing is, I've seen just as many, IMO, that are left wing non-Christians that are mothering, protecting, and fighting for him. I think Christianity has very little to do with this. IMO, it's more of an overinvestiture in Clay than anything else. JMO.

However, I would like to see him start appealing more to the mainstream sector of the population.

But what is that really? "Mainstream" to you could be totally different than "mainstream" to me. And, in my experience as a person in the Midwest, "mainstream" frequently (not always) equals Christian. Again, JMO.

Think I can use "MO" in this post any more?

I'm in the middle of reading a book right now called "Religious Literacy." The author, Stephen Prothero, believes that there needs to be a basic understanding of ALL religious cultures, in order to understand this country. Both the right-wing and the left (and that includes me, even as a Christian *g*) must understand the basics of the Bible, the tenets of the Quran, Buddhist holy books, and so much more, to be able to discuss issues happening in this world today. It's a fascinating book, and I'm going to be following it up with some basic works on many of the big world religions. Anyway, this paragraph may be apropos of nothing, but the conversation keeps reminding me of it.

WE don't need anymore Detectives in the fandom. They have done enough damage already thank you very much.

This? I agree with.

*waves at 00lsee*

[muskifest]

OOOH! OOlsee's here! Don't go away! :F_05BL17blowkiss: We got GREAT 'digs' here!

However, I feel I must ask....

what's your position on phallic veggies?

[Ansamcw]

Waves to my eHP buddies and several other familiar faces... Just checking out the digs, yo!

EEEEEEEEEE 00lsee...great to see you here!!!!

hope you post more...

hee muski and phallic veggies...so we have dancing brocolis and dancing bananas...we need dancing cucumbers now???

[Kareneh]

This church has a newletter on their site that is filled with IMO so much hate and intolerance its, well, let's just say its not very Christian! And from things Clay has said, I suspect its not his kind of Christianity! If this church were in my own backyard, I would not go to this concert.

Well, there's the fine print, dang! I guess I'd have to bow out of this one, too, if that's the kind of religion they practice. Oh well...at least I won't be a pillar of salt afterall ....heh! that spike in my salinity wouldn't have my blood pressure any good, so all is well.

There should be some lively discussions ensuing over this one in the coming weeks. Maybe I'm glad I'll be half out of the loop for awhile. I have no way of knowing how much input Clay has into what venues he plays. It makes sense that halls and theatres who rent out advertise in industry pubclications or on websites designed for that purpose. I figure it's just a matter of marrying the date, the size and the geography and Clay gets a list in the end and updates along the way. Who knows? I don't see one church venue as a trend but I see there will be those who will crucify him for appearing there. Is it safe to go peeking into the OFC?

{{{{Claygasm & family}}}}

Talk about dangling a carrot as an enticement. Talk about your cobs of corn. Talk about leaving off the dressing...talk about...

What muski? No french?

I see 00lsee!! **waves**

:F_05BL17blowkiss:

hee muski and phallic veggies...so we have dancing brocolis and dancing bananas...we need dancing cucumbers now???

ansamcw, I'd like to make a case for zucchinis, as well.

[Couch Tomato]

TOO LATE! I SAW IT! HA HA HA HA!

I guess you need a little mean streak in you to take over the world.

Checks spelling..and hit sub...

Thing is, I've seen just as many, IMO, that are left wing non-Christians that are mothering, protecting, and fighting for him. I think Christianity has very little to do with this. IMO, it's more of an overinvestiture in Clay than anything else. JMO.

I agree with this. Plus I've hung around Christians all my life and wouldn't know a right wing one if they slapped me in the face. I probably look at christianity differently than most though. I can even separate out the people from the doctine based on the fact that I pretty much ignored a lot of it when I was growing up while still participating on a certain level.

.

*waves at 00lsee*

Me too!

Dang, lunch over?

[keepingfaith]

Apropos of nothing, it just occurred to me that the venue where I saw probably the majority of big rock concerts in my life .... from Led Zeppelin, to Neil Young and Crazy Horse, ZZ Top, Paul McCartney & Wings (and on and on) is now the biggest church in town.

And I saw some great NBA championship games there, too!

[Ansamcw]

HaHaHa I think Clay already has enough far right wing conservative Christian fans. IMHO some of them are too involved in mothering , protecting, and fighting for him. To a point that it is hurting him. So I can't join the camp that thinks it is a good idea to attract more. LOL I'm sorry no offense intended to anyone. I'm not putting down Christians or religion. However, I would like to see him start appealing more to the mainstream sector of the population. I don't care what age. Attract people that aren't so OTT and want to involve themselves so much in his career. I would like to see fans who aren't pearl clutchers, and so full of angst and worry. Fans who don't have time to worry if some "nobody" in a blog somewhere hints at his sexuality as being gay. WE don't need anymore Detectives in the fandom. They have done enough damage already thank you very much.

Well I will word ldyj's response to this cos I know for a fact some of the people that are most vocal about Clay;s direction are not Christians. I also know that a lot of the worriers and pearl clutchers are from opposite side of the political spectrum because they worry that Clay's Christianity won;t be seen as cool or turn a lot of potential listeners off. I also know of fans that go ballistic at every suggestion that he is gay and are not right wing Christians.

To me...Clay is a good example of an open minded Christian. He is a good role model for all kinds of young people. I would hope that by attracting young fans from fundamental Christians and extreme right...he can influence them to be more open to other belief systems and lifestyles.

[playbiller]

truthfully, I have stopped being quite as honorable as I used to be. Yes, I went into WalMart and bought AIW - shoot me - that is all I bought though, although I did bother their staff and file a complaint about one person.

I hate WalMart and all it stands for.

There are local venues that took my state taxes to become monuments to corporations (thank you very much Christie (who cares if you inhale human body parts ) Whitman. I still go there when there is a show I want to see.

I have friends that believe things that make me shake my head and wonder if they had a major brain trauma in the last few years (a mother who encouraged her son to sign up and serve in Iraq so he could feel good about himself?!?!? A master degreed nurse who decided that evolution did not happen - not in the bible to which she has recently become very attached) and I still give them birthday presents and talk to them, I just leave when the topic turns into something I can't handle. I no longer try to change their minds - I feel when they don't have them anymore, what is the point. But they are nice, if not the brightest, people.

Compromise - I have learned to live with it.

[ivy]

I personally can't take much of the angst about the venues. If people have good reasons for not attending fine. Just don't shove them in my face with 1000 posts about it. I'm trying to be careful because I know some here may not like that particular venue. No problem. But then I'm sure if people did research, there would not be many approved venues. Some will like it. Some will not. *shrug* I hope that those who don't will let the rest of us enjoy the concert and don't go into the tailspin I'm starting to see on a couple of boards.