#28: The man's a joy magnet!

[lilyshine]

Just to add another reaction to YWT. I'm fairly laid back about religious discussions and generally don't think it's any of my business what people believe, nor is what I believe any of theirs. I stay far, far away from any type of religious controversy.

I went to my first concert having ignored most of the Board uproar. Listening to YWT and seeing the video, I felt as if I had been slapped in the face. The other NaTs, I kinda cowered in my seat and tried not to look at the screens. It was a very visceral reaction, not at all rational, for me. I don't know why it hit me so hard, but it did.

I don't now, nor did I then, feel any need to defend, explain or agonize over my reaction. It was what is was and strictly personal to me and my life experience.

[merryclay]

Clay is who he is. People will follow him or they won't. That's the way life is, and Clay has to make his own choices. We all have opinions and try not to sell ourselves out, and I think Clay is the same. I think this album is going to be artistic in the sense that it is a bit outside the box for Clay. I'm trusting Kipper's words. I'm trusting Clay's words. It's going to be different and I can't wait to hear it. It doesn't have to be us; it's about him. I do want a closer look at his life during these last five years. I've invested a lot of time following Clay. I want to know him better. I want to hear his beautiful voice tell his story of hard times and good times. In that sense, the stories are everyone.

I hate to see Spamalot end. I love, love Clay the actor. I love all the success he's had with the show and the NJU that have discovered Clay. I love the excitement in the fandom. I hope it all works out that we all love Clay's new music. We really are a family. No eyerolling, please. LOL!!!Have a great Sun.

[aikim]

Good Morning Everyone,

Re: Sacrificial Love...he talked about that song in the WRAL interviews; he said it was about a relationship that you have to sort of hold you over until the real thing comes along (paraphrasing here)

35 Days until The Closing Night of Spamalot!

37 Days until "On My Way Here" is Here!

92 Days until The Summer of Clay!

Everyone have a great day!

Kim

[merrieeee]

OMG, Halleluija & praise the saints!!!!!!

I just made that profile pic the wallpaper on my new laptop and I am now having a religious experience!!!! I am at work too....I should be ashamed and contrite! Should I say some "Hail Marys and Amens"? Na!

And that folks is as much religious talk as you are ever goin' to get out of me!

Hee keepingfaith I see you down there! How's everything going? Good I hope!

[Kareneh]

OMG, Halleluija & praise the saints!!!!!!

Might I add a "Lord, have Mercy" to that? That's one humdinger of a wallpaper!

And now, I have to run off to try and change my name to Mercy.

[keepingfaith]

Re: Sacrificial Love...he talked about that song in the WRAL interviews; he said it was about a relationship that you have to sort of hold you over until the real thing comes along (paraphrasing here)

That being said, my best guess is that Sacrificial Love is upbeat or whimsical in nature and not a heavy ballad.

I wish I could stay and play, but I'll be gone today. Things are progressing, but my mother's condition is unlikely to improve significantly. She's been beautiful and energetic since childhood and advanced age is depressing her. I think that has contributed greatly to her physical issues. There's a critical downside to being Type A when one loses mobility. My mother was never able to sit down -- and now that she has to, she feels anxiety and a sense of defeat. I think learning how to "do nothing" is a life essential. But, of course that's easy for me to say.

[FromClaygary]

Well, apparently my mission today is to just do this:

Thanks so much for the beautimous pics, Gibby!!!! :F_05BL17blowkiss:

I hope people aren't reliving their experience and everything that came with it.

I'm reliving it all -- that tingly shiver in my spine whenever he whispered "dark" as in "You would rather die than leave us in the dark" and the surge of passion that begins with "You were the Victor and the King" until I pretty much stop breathing from "You are the strength when we have none" on to the end when I'm left gasping as he is slowly lowered from the stage. If anyone beside me had stormed off in a hissy fit during that time I wouldn't have noticed nor would have cared unless the now empty seat were closer to the center than mine, giving me an opportunity to move up.

For me, it's one of the best things he's ever done.

Clay is who he is. People will follow him or they won't. That's the way life is, and Clay has to make his own choices. We all have opinions and try not to sell ourselves out, and I think Clay is the same. I think this album is going to be artistic in the sense that it is a bit outside the box for Clay. I'm trusting Kipper's words. I'm trusting Clay's words. It's going to be different and I can't wait to hear it. It doesn't have to be us; it's about him. I do want a closer look at his life during these last five years. I've invested a lot of time following Clay. I want to know him better. I want to hear his beautiful voice tell his story of hard times and good times. In that sense, the stories are everyone.

and again.....

Thanks for the pictures gibbgirl! They're gorgeous!

[KAndre]

lilyshine, I think I sorta understand your reaction - because honest to goodness when Clay is on a roll live, he can make a performance incredibly intense and personal - I realize the intimacy he can create with his voice swings both ways. And so far, he seems to have saved that overwhelmingness he's capable of performing for YWT and Solitaire and All Is Well....all this reminds me that Clay's performances can trigger wrenching passions - and to me, that makes him an artist of the highest caliber.

On the other hand, I didn't actually clean yesterday either.

I will tryyyyyyyyyyyy to do it today. Maybe.

[FromClaygary]

lilyshine, I think I sorta understand your reaction - because honest to goodness when Clay is on a roll live, he can make a performance incredibly intense and personal - I realize the intimacy he can create with his voice swings both ways. And so far, he seems to have saved that overwhelmingness he's capable of performing for YWT and Solitaire and All Is Well....all this reminds me that Clay's performances can trigger wrenching passions - and to me, that makes him an artist of the highest caliber.

Very good point.

Here's a songwriter who MAY be one of the writers of "Sacrificial Love" on OMWH; but for those being "virgins" like me don't worry, because it isn't on her myspace. I AM finding, though, that the other things on her myspace and her bio are kind of fun and interesting, if you'd like to listen too.

Sharon Vaughn

[jmh123]

I object to the specific theology expressed in YWT, from the fact that the lyric about God saving Isaac completely overlooks the fact that it was God who told Abraham to take Isaac up there and kill him for a sacrifice in the first place ("And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of." Genesis 22:2), to the notion that blind obedience to God is always a good thing (do we feel that way about Islamic suicide bombers?) to the suggestion that God will take care of your real world problems. I thought the presentation was way over the top, and the song was kind of hard to ignore, what with the platform, the white suit, the flying Bibles and so forth. It was the very definition of preachy, with Clay in the pulpit. Now if you like being preached to, if that's something that resonates positively with you, it probably didn't bother you.

The last time I expressed my feelings about the lyrics of the song on this board, the response from many was, "I never listen to lyrics." I think that's true, and I also think that most Christians don't think about the theology of the song whatsoever, given the large number of people who always say, "I don't see the difference between this and AAL or the Christmas songs."

I would never say that anyone ought not to have enjoyed the song; I'd just say that I didn't. I freaked out at the time, but, and here's where I say something different, I learned a lot from the debates over YWT at my old board. I got to know a lot more about different kinds of Christians from the Bible-thumping, KKK hood-wearing, cross-burning, dancing-chewing-gum-playing-cards-is-a-sin Christians I grew up under, or the hyper-political types who get the most attention in the media. I learned that, as in most things, the people who lend themselves to reinforcing a stereotype are not typical. I got to know some people at that old board whom I didn't know very well before then: KAndre, Couch Tomato, ansa, ldyjocelyn--and look at me now hanging out with them on their (my) board because they're some of my favorite people. So I would say that overall it was a very good experience. And I wrote a lovely sacrilegious parody and had a stare-down with Clay in AC as he decended below stage on his platform in AC. So it's all good.

Generally speaking, YWT aside, I don't mind at all when Clay sings songs that express his faith. He feels them intensely, and his passion is hawt. Just didn't care for that one song. So the possibility that the current album might have CCM songs or a CCM flavor is no problem for me.

[jmh123]

With this album, who will we blame if we don't like this album. Not RCA. Seems like Clay got pretty much what he wanted. Who do we blame if this album has too many ballads or message songs or fast songs or whatever. I'll be the first to say I can't say for certain what Clay would sing if it were all up to him. I have an idea but since he hasn't really articulated it before all I have to go by is what he has sung, what he seems to enjoy, the tour cover songs that he chose. I feel I have a bead on Clay although it may not be accurate and he may surprise me. That's part of the fun of all this for me.

Expectations are really high because many think Clay was kept from doing what he wanted to do. I agree that he didn't want to do a covers album at the time. I just don't agree that the songs on ATDW are the kind of songs Clay doesn't like and wants to get away from. So I think there will be shock for instance if Clay has many (5 or so) ballads on his album. I think the slow songs schtick contributed to it because people didn't take it as schtick but a slap at RCA. I never took it that way just as I never thought Clay was saying he wanted to sing the cool songs...or that the cool songs were bad. That also seemed to have many interpretations.

I think fans are tougher on Clay than fans are on most people....

Fans are really, really hard on Clay, and I think his only road to sanity is to please himself.

See, I never really saw Clay as being afraid to offend anyone from the get go - and a LOT more emotionally mature than many of his fans....

I remember vividly being at the concert at Massey Hall in Toronto in 1965 (OMG that is 42 years ago!) when Bob Dylan played the first half acoustically and the second half electric with The Hawks who eventually became The Band. Wow..the amount of booing that took place. These were fans who knew every song and had spent hours discussing and figuring out what exactly he meant by his lyrics. They said he had "sold out". The booing went on from the US to Canada to the UK but Dylan never lacked for fans. The ones I knew who booed remained fans once they got over the shock.

WOW!! You were there. That was a seminal moment in music history. WOW!!!

I wish I could stay and play, but I'll be gone today. Things are progressing, but my mother's condition is unlikely to improve significantly. She's been beautiful and energetic since childhood and advanced age is depressing her. I think that has contributed greatly to her physical issues. There's a critical downside to being Type A when one loses mobility. My mother was never able to sit down -- and now that she has to, she feels anxiety and a sense of defeat. I think learning how to "do nothing" is a life essential. But, of course that's easy for me to say.

{{{keepingfaith}}} I hope you can find a resolution for your parents that will work for them as they transition into this new stage of life. After years of practice, my mother's got this "do nothing" stuff down to a science, in case your mother needs any advice.

[merryclay]

jmh123Wow, I'm sorry you were so taken aback. Sometimes, it is tough, and in the long run, he might not sing the things you want him to. After 5 years, I think we're seeing that Clay is going to try to stay center without forgetting what makes him who he is. I don't think he means to hurt anyone, that's for sure.

[playbiller]

heh, I did my sophmore paper on Job as presented in the play JB and I had already split with the church, so it was a unique take, according to the teacher and I got a b+. I was forming my views of gods and decided I didn't like anyone's view, but they had a right to believe what they wanted as long as they did not act rude to me. Mine was a secular view point of bullies and what nots. I would never read my paper in public (if I coud find it). One thing I had to learn and learn quickly is to accept other views and take what I want from it. Much of religion is story telling and the stories are dramatic and interesting, the other is art inspired by religion. In Job, the god is both demanding and obnoxious and forgiving and kind. I find most religions impracticaal and full of contradictions.

Just don't tell the mother of my Godson's, although Fear is not one I fear, heh. I meant the other one. I signed up for a parish membership for my mother who was dying and wanted to see me regocgnized as one grandson's godmother. I take my responsibility more a moral guide than a religious one. (and now I am going to leave his ceremoney early for Clay - bad, bad, bad,

Wih all that being said, I did not like God Bless the USA highly offensive as manipulative jingoism and bad music besides, but I did not cover my eyes or ears or walk out on any shows where he sang it or demand Clays top singing it.

[Clayzorback]

I agree. Clay always has and always will do what he wants to do, and feels is in his comfort level. That is as it should be. I also agree that those who are fretting about his new CD are coming close to revisiting the ATDW fiasco. I also have battle scar wounds from trying to stop the trashing of that CD. To me, that was the worse thing I have ever seen done in this fandom. Far worse than people not liking YWT and expressing that opinion.

My opinions are never meant to be about my personal likes and dislikes. I'm already a fan of Clay. If he ever does something I can not love and support, I have the option of just moving on. I'm still here. I consider myself very heavily invested in him and his success. My opinions on anything are usually geared to how I think non fans will like something. About him being successful and enlarging his fanbase. They are not about dissing Clay or trying to tell him what to do. Or for demanding him to do what I like personally. I expect a lot of Clay's existing fans to love everything about him. I'm more concerned about what new people will think. Clay doesn't need my defending and he doesn't need my approval. I am not one bit worried about OMWH. I think it is going to be pretty much more of the same. More like MOAM than ATDW. I won't be hating on it before I even hear it. I hope we don't see the angst revisited like ATDW. I don't even visit other boards and haven't renewed at OFC. I just don't need the angst it gives my blood pressure anymore.

I also think there is a big difference between today's modern CCM and songs like YWT=Blood Will Lose It's Power=The Old Rugged Cross=etc etc..........I don't dislike CCM songs that are not recognizble as very religious songs, like perhaps IWCY, AAL, or Kyrie. I think songs like that in pop concerts are fine. I just don't think doing things like what Clay did with YWT in concert will gain him a lot of new fans. I think keepingfaith is right. He knows he has a lot of religious fans and he probably just thought that he was doing something that appeals to them. I think he has discovered that might of been a mistake. He is a stubborn little cuss though. Hee He didn't stop singing it in his tour, but he hasn't repeated it in any others. Not to say that he won't.

I agree that Clay will and does do what he wants. I also believes he will use ticket sales and venue sizes to determine if what he likes will or is resonating with what the general public likes and will make changes accordingly or settle for a smaller career. Either way is fine with me. It's his life. I've long ago learned that he isn't going to listen to me.

keepingfaith, I am so sorry about your mom and dad. I can only say that I feel for what you are going through and hope it gets better for all.

However I can see myself somewhat in your mom.

advanced age is depressing her

I am not aging graciously either. Probably has a lot to do with my decision to buy that sporty red Chevy Malibu I just bought. Clay makes me feel young again. I am going through my second childhood.............

[jmh123]

jmh123 Wow, I'm sorry you were so taken aback. Sometimes, it is tough, and in the long run, he might not sing the things you want him to. After 5 years, I think we're seeing that Clay is going to try to stay center without forgetting what makes him who he is. I don't think he means to hurt anyone, that's for sure.

It was a long post--you saw this part, right?

Generally speaking, YWT aside, I don't mind at all when Clay sings songs that express his faith. He feels them intensely, and his passion is hawt. Just didn't care for that one song. So the possibility that the current album might have CCM songs or a CCM flavor is no problem for me.

[KAndre]

Oh, hell...the first thought that rolled through my mind on seeing the visual presentation was Elmer!Gantry!Clay - I just didn't think it was particularly preachy and definitely not even close to the definition of "preachy" (chick, I need to introduce you to some of my aunts) - and I also have been preached at in various and sundry way - both subtle and blatant. As one that in general doesn't particular listen to lyrics (nope, the "spinning balls" never bothered me! or the butterfly wings, heh!), for me, I no more expect theological rigorousness (or accuracy) from a gospel song/hymn/CCM than I expect to learn accurate history/anatomy/geography from a pop hit. I'm not a Biblical literalist either, but I do take into consideration the time frame that the Bible was discussing - and the people of the Bible are not exactly civilized. (One of the more fascinating reads a while back for me was "Blogging the Bible" on Slate by a nonobservant Jew. I found it fascinating.) For me, I tend to find that song writers/singer/performance are first and foremost looking for an emotional connection - and logic has nothing to do with it. They pick and choose what to emphasize and frankly backstory tends not to be it. Like Ruben (or the Red Choir) singing "Sweet Home Alabama". One of the few poems I've always liked is The Charge of the Light Brigade (What little poetry I like tends to be old school - "Their's not to reason why, Their's but to do and die.") Courageous, glorious, sounds really impressive - all about one of the more incredibly stupid episodes of the Crimean War.

I know some good as well as some bad came out of the YWT episode (waves madly at jhm123) - and my sweetie rattboi helped me to clarify a lot of what I thought but couldn't articulate...especially about how people didn't mind the religious songs that could be hidden as "generically spiritual" but just didn't want Clay to be obvious with it. Like I said to someone on another board - "generic" and "compromise" don't say art to me. There is a LOT of art I don't like, ain't gonna go see - but it's still art that speaks to someone, if only the artist.

I'm sort of missing the point of trying to figure out what "nonfans" want. If they are really "nonfans", what they don't want is Clay. If they are "not yet fans", they will like Clay when they hear him. Like many of our people here. And push come to shove, he may put out one thing they like, and they will like it but still not become a fan. I'm sure Daughtry, Green Day, Nickelback, the Beatles sees me as a "nonfan" because in general I don't like their stuff. But they may have one cut I like. I'll buy it and listen to it. Still not a fan though.

I'll wait to listen to Clay's actual tracks. Too many of his songs are too different than other people's versions and I can't really get a feel for what Clay will do listen to someone else. I should be good, as there are no mice in any of the titles.

[Clayzorback]

Elmer Gantry Clay? He would sure be good at it.

I miss the old days when the board had more smuttier thread title suggestions! I guess the smutters have become out numbered on here.

[aikim]

The lyrics of YWT have always sort of confused me because the complaint has always been about the Christianity of the song and yet reading the lyrics there is a lot of the Old Testament in them and a lot of it didn't make sense to me. Talking about the God Of Abraham and David and then at the end, the Risen Lamb of God as if they are the one and the same (and as a Catholic, I do believe that), when Jesus Christ is not universally recognized. Just was never quite sure what the songwriter was doing there.

I actually did clean yesterday; cleaned my whole kitchen and just finished ironing the curtains so I can re-hang them. Always get the cleaning bug in spring time and have been known to take a week of vacation so can I clean my whole house from top to bottom. Not doing that this year though, decided that is just too much work and who is going to see if the tops of the celing fans are dusty?

Kim

[Couch Tomato]

Elmer Gantry Clay? He would sure be good at it.

I miss the old days when the board had more smuttier thread title suggestions! I guess the smutters have become outnumbered on here.

well it's not for lack of smut so you just have to say "thread title?"

JMH thanks for your post. You know I kinda tuned out most of the YWT talk at the time. Amost everyone in my family is a "christian" so don't even understand the kind of christian you grew up around JMH or frankly the political Christians that are always in the news. It has just never been my experience. I'm glad you learned through this experience.

Regarding the song writing for YWT..I think I'll go back and read them...don't know if I ever connected them but I think people who write "church songs" and enjoy music of that vein probably are like any other "poets." They take a little artistic license.

The Blood..that is an old song... It's sonthing I sang in the choir 35 years ago so it's always been one of my favorite Clay demos. I don't think I've listened to the Saddle up song more than twice.

Anyway enjoyed the convo.

Keepingfaith - I so know what you are going through. It's a tough thing to deal with. Good luck!

[wandacleo]

My God, you all have been talking up a storm here. I was so far behind.

YWT--I never thought of it as anything other than Clay's PERSONAL expression of faith--not sure how that would affect me. I'm a complete heathen, but I ran right out and bought the songbook so I could play that beautiful song on the piano. I like Gregorian chants too--doesn't make me feel pressured to become Catholic.

[jmh123]

My God, you all have been talking up a storm here. I was so far behind.

YWT--I never thought of it as anything other than Clay's PERSONAL expression of faith--not sure how that would affect me. I'm a complete heathen, but I ran right out and bought the songbook so I could play that beautiful song on the piano. I like Gregorian chants too--doesn't make me feel pressured to become Catholic.

Preachy doesn't necessary mean "pressure to become...." To me it means, in your face. The staging and the video were overkill, IMO. If Clay sang a Gregorian chant dressed as a Catholic priest, with his backup singers in costume waving those incense-burner thingies on a chain, accompanied by a video of medieval Catholic iconography, some might that that was over the top too. Except for KAndre, who would call it Art. (smooches KAndre) :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Come to think of it, no wonder Clay loves Spamalot! Hee! Hope that doesn't give him any ideas for the next tour.

[lilyshine]

I'm always surprised at how strongly and how differently people respond to art, whether graphic, music or performance. It really seems to hit parts of the brain/soul/psyche in a direct manner. I always think of an incident that happened to me a few many years ago.

I was working in NY at the World Trade Center and a co-worker and I had gone out to lunch. On the way back we stopped to listen to a German "Oom-pah" band that was playing in the lobby. Not my favorite kind of music, but cheerful and better than going back to work!

This was years before the fall of the Berlin Wall. As the last number the band played "Deutschland Uber Alles". I was enjoying the melody which I had grown up with as a favorite hymn as well as being the tune to my Alma Mater. My friend grabbed my arm and said, "Let's go." I asked him why and he told me that he had lost most of his family in the Holocaust and couldn't listen to that tune without remembering.

Three different people, three very different reactions.

The band was proud to play their National Anthem at a time when Germany was beginning to flourish.

I was enjoying good memories.

My friend was stung by bad memories.

There was no wrong or right, just very different reactions to something that moved all the listeners.

[jmh123]

For me, I tend to find that song writers/singer/performance are first and foremost looking for an emotional connection - and logic has nothing to do with it. They pick and choose what to emphasize and frankly backstory tends not to be it. Like Ruben (or the Red Choir) singing "Sweet Home Alabama".

I do hear you on this. In school when I was growing up, from the first grade on, after the National Anthem was played on the public address system every morning, it was followed by Dixie. I never associated the song with racism or paid attention to the lyrics. I now totally understand and appreciate why people react very negatively to that song, and I do not think it would be a good idea for a perfomer to include it in a concert, especially with accompanying symbolism, but I have positive connections to the song on that pre-verbal level you are talking about and the meaning I get from it is very different from the meaning others would rightfully feel.

Or what lilyshine said better.

[Clayzorback]

My God, you all have been talking up a storm here. I was so far behind.

YWT--I never thought of it as anything other than Clay's PERSONAL expression of faith--not sure how that would affect me. I'm a complete heathen, but I ran right out and bought the songbook so I could play that beautiful song on the piano. I like Gregorian chants too--doesn't make me feel pressured to become Catholic.

Preachy doesn't necessary mean "pressure to become...." To me it means, in your face. The staging and the video were overkill, IMO. If Clay sang a Gregorian chant dressed as a Catholic priest, with his backup singers in costume waving those incense-burner thingies on a chain, accompanied by a video of medieval Catholic iconography, some might that that was over the top too. Except for KAndre, who would call it Art. (smooches KAndre) :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Come to think of it, no wonder Clay loves Spamalot! Hee! Hope that doesn't give him any ideas for the next tour.

Nice post jmh. I agree.

well it's not for lack of smut so you just have to say "thread title?"

I used to couchie. It just seems they never get voted for anymore. There seems to be more people on here now that apparently prefer the "family friendly" goo goo stuff. The smut suggestions never win the vote. No problem really, I just kind of noticed that and I miss it. I see only two of us voted for the "Where's The Smut" suggestion. Kind of backs up my theory somewhat........

[Couch Tomato]

well it's not for lack of smut so you just have to say "thread title?"

I used tocouchie. It just seems they never get voted for anymore. There seems to be more people on here now that apparently prefer the "family friendly" goo goo stuff. The smut suggestions never win the vote. No problem really, I just kind of noticed that and I miss it. I see only two of us voted for the "Where's The Smut" suggestion. Kind of backs up my theory somewhat........

well if you look at teh one that's slightly ahead it can be quite the smut if your twist to the left. heh I also think it's pretty representative of FCA as it's always been -- excited over Clay.

And since I have to go out soon there may be a bit of premature thread title changing and I'm sorry about that if everyone didn't get a chance to vote. We'll get ourselves together next time..of course because Ansa and LadyJ will be back hee. They may take away my keys.

ETA: heee thought it was it's really coming...I see smut where there is none..and frankly that's this board's influence. I've already been pretty smutless. heh.

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