#34: So, how about that Clay Aiken?

[atinal]

I believe in those early interviews when Clay spoke of having a family, he was speaking in the traditional sense. Perhaps a hint that he's been thinking about this for awhile.

"for all I know the picture that I've tried so hard to find, isn't mine"

ETA: djs, now that's funny, and what about that avacado colored sweater that everyone loves to hate!

[luckiest1]

Hee, thanks djs111. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

I'm just feeling a leeeetle out of step with the fandom at large right now (even though I know that reactions are all over the place). Not the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Time to go for a walk with my iPod, I think.

[Iseeme]

But djs - you forgot his favorite color is green so therefore he must be lying about that too since avocados are green! Can that man NOT make up his mind?

And everybody knows Southerners don't know how to fix avocados! :lmaosmiley-1:

I completely agree with the statement that people's likes and dislikes change over the years. And I also think it's been a problem in the fandom when people quote something he said 5 years ago as the gospel truth now. I think when Clay first was mobbed by the media he wasn't prepared for the intrusive questions and the absolute need for everybody to know his every thought. Since then I think he puts his "interview face" on and the words just kind of come out. That's why we hear the same little stories time and time again from him. I've often wondered if he's thinking about something else when he's answering the same old questions time and time again. That's why I always appreciate it when an interviewer does their homework and really asks him pertinent questions to the time.

As for "love" - there are all kinds of it. And unless IIT and he marries Jaymes and they live in that big house in Raleigh, we may never, ever know just what definition of "love" is between the two of them.

I'm getting a bit more used to this thing now - even though it's been a verrrrrrrry long week - but I'm still bewildered and probably always will be unless Clay decides to speak out. And even then I bet it will be short and terse and I still won't know anything.

[KAndre]

Nah - I think unconditional love can exist between unrelated individuals - most relationships just don't really demand big, spectacular sacrifices. Or people don't see it as unconditional love rather than just crazy - women who have stuck with men through jail, other women, desertion. Others (or even the people involved try to rationalize a lot of it, but a lot of it is just uncondition love - the object just may be inappropriate. And guys? Good lord, some guys will hang on through thick and thin and nothing can shake them. Up to and including murder.

[jmh123]

Oooh! I love more recent Asian movies - Raise The Red Lantern (stunning), The Scent of Green Papaya, The Vertical Ray of the Sun, anything with Tony Leung (I do love Hong Kong Express!)

Love Raise the Red Lantern and Scent of Green Papaya. Haven't see the other two but I'll look for them. In Japan I used to watch Hong Kong movies all the time, most of them not "arty" at all, but just plain entertaining. Fell in love with Leslie Cheung, who later tragically killed himself, and Chow Yun-Fat, who ended up coming here to do some good movies and some not-so-good ones.

Eeeeeee! I can't believe I read Tony Leung's name here --- "In The Mood For Love" (with Maggie Cheung) was sublime! I've been trying to get a copy of Hong Kong Express for ages!

Thanks for sharing these movies, jmh and djs! Other favorites -- "Eat Drink Man Woman", "Farewell my Concubine", "Kagemusha - The Shadow Warrior" and "The Road Home". Was expecting more from "Hero" but I enjoyed it anyway because of Tony and Maggie.

I also love Tony and Maggie, and Eat Drink Man Woman, and Farewell My Concubine (with my beloved Leslie). Pushing Hands is a lesser known film directed by Ang Lee that is definitely worth watching for its exploration of cultural conflicts at home, with the same man who plays the father in Eat Drink Man Woman. Funny fight scene in a restaurant kitchen. Once a Thief (directed by John Woo, with Yun-Fat and Leslie Cheung) is a big favorite of mine, even though it's 100% Hong Kong cheese. Another movie I love for sheer spectacle and its homage to old Hollywood movies is "Run Tiger Run" (Liang zhi lao hu, 1985, also directed by Woo). There's a wonderful scene--an epic battle in a massive living room between a bunch of kids and the bad guys--that is so camp and so funny.

Oh and another movie I recommend is "King of Masks," made on the mainland, about a Peking Opera star with an unusual skill who is looking for an heir to teach.

Wishing you a speedy recovery, laughn!!

In other news, all is well - we have cat pee! The patient is doing well.

YAY!!!

djs111, very funny!!!

[Scarlett]

Eeeeeee! I can't believe I read Tony Leung's name here --- "In The Mood For Love" (with Maggie Cheung) was sublime! I've been trying to get a copy of Hong Kong Express for ages!

Oh, I love Eat Drink Man Woman immoderately - and I am afraid I meant Chunking Express, which can be had from Amazon for not very much. I should buy a copy, myself. I have one of those DVD players that plays PAL and NTSC, which comes in handy.

I'm heading to Fry's on my lunch hour to look for it -- this is the movie where he's a cop and it's about him and his partner, right? I just remember someone raving about it and that it was called something-or-other Express. Will report back... (unless I find something else interesting in Fry's, LOL!).

...and BWAH! on the avocados.

So... do you think would arranged marriages be about unconditional love, at least the ones that 'work'?

ETA:

Oooh! I love more recent Asian movies - Raise The Red Lantern (stunning), The Scent of Green Papaya, The Vertical Ray of the Sun, anything with Tony Leung (I do love Hong Kong Express!)

Love Raise the Red Lantern and Scent of Green Papaya. Haven't see the other two but I'll look for them. In Japan I used to watch Hong Kong movies all the time, most of them not "arty" at all, but just plain entertaining. Fell in love with Leslie Cheung, who later tragically killed himself, and Chow Yun-Fat, who ended up coming here to do some good movies and some not-so-good ones.

Eeeeeee! I can't believe I read Tony Leung's name here --- "In The Mood For Love" (with Maggie Cheung) was sublime! I've been trying to get a copy of Hong Kong Express for ages!

Thanks for sharing these movies, jmh and djs! Other favorites -- "Eat Drink Man Woman", "Farewell my Concubine", "Kagemusha - The Shadow Warrior" and "The Road Home". Was expecting more from "Hero" but I enjoyed it anyway because of Tony and Maggie.

I also love Tony and Maggie, and Eat Drink Man Woman, and Farewell My Concubine (with my beloved Leslie). Pushing Hands is a lesser known film directed by Ang Lee that is definitely worth watching for its exploration of cultural conflicts at home, with the same man who plays the father in Eat Drink Man Woman. Funny fight scene in a restaurant kitchen. Once a Thief (directed by John Woo, with Yun-Fat and Leslie Cheung) is a big favorite of mine, even though it's 100% Hong Kong cheese. Another movie I love for sheer spectacle and its homage to old Hollywood movies is "Run Tiger Run" (Liang zhi lao hu, 1985, also directed by Woo). There's a wonderful scene--an epic battle in a massive living room between a bunch of kids and the bad guys--that is so camp and so funny.

Oh and another movie I recommend is "King of Masks," made on the mainland, about a Peking Opera star with an unusual skill who is looking for an heir to teach.

Edits the Fry's shopping list -- thanks for the v. timely post, jmh! Can't wait to watch and discuss!

[muskifest]

Jenna...gotta say that your suggestion re: the scenario of Clay and Jaymes NOT being in a committed relationship but still having a baby together makes the most sense for that scenario, which was the one of the 'what ifs' that has been giving me the most trouble reconciling for myself. Comparing it to having a child from a former marriage/relationship.

I'm not one of those who would have any problem with Clay and Jaymes actually BEING a couple and having the baby. I have no problem imagining the two of them in a deep relationship that includes romantic/sexual love. I certainly have no problem with her age. It's a number.

I'm also not one entertaining other scenarios at this particular time; that is, I am not even trying to put my head around the 'Clay asking Jaymes to carry his baby for him' or 'Jaymes asking Clay to give her a baby' or all those suggestions.

So I have three ways I'm processing this whole thing. It keeps me sane.

1. Clay and Jaymes are in a loving, committed relationship and are having a baby together. They may or may not sign a paper in the future to 'prove it' or may have done so in the past already. They are in love and plan to share their lives together with their child. They might even adopt more later.

2. Clay and Jaymes have a close, abiding love for each other and both want a child very badly. They've discussed the issue exhaustively and decided that in their present circumstances they are comfortable sharing a child, even though they realize that they do not have/want a future together as a romantic/life-partner relationship. They've considered the ramifications of this plan on their potential future relationships with others and agree to always be devoted parents to their child, regardless.

3. It's all a bunch of hooey and another example of the kind of journalism our media feeds our celebrity news-crazed public.

Any one of these scenarios is feasible to me, so I'm preparing myself for all of them.

Meanwhile, my 13-yr-old daughter is exhibiting the classic signs of that age and creating great angst from her parents; my 16 yr old is being amazingly responsible and calm lately and has me worried; my husband is dealing with his own aging/self-destructive parent issues and is showing the strain; my 87-yr-old mother is displaying all the signs of a woman hopelessly in love and the object of her affection is a two-timing gigilo who's not even aware he HAS two girlfriends; and I'm having knee problems that I refuse to attribute to 'old age' but am getting an x-ray anyway so the picture of an arthritic joint will make it impossible to ignore.

Let's come up with some possible scenarios for resolution of these mysteries, 'kay?

:lmaosmiley-1:

ETA: no spelling of 'gigilo' 'gigalo' looks right to me!

[Iseeme]

Scarlett said:

So... do you think would arranged marriages be about unconditional love, at least the ones that 'work'?

I think arranged marraiges work when it's part of their culture. I had several Indian (east Indian) men working for me and they were very happily ensconced in arranged marraiges. One of them didn't meet his bride-to-be until the several days of ceremonys started. The other was sent to India to find a wife. I asked him "well, what if you don't love her?" His answer was "well, she'll be my wife!" I came back with "but Ranjit, what if you dont' love her?" Again his answer was "but Sue, she'll be my wife!" That is so not in my frame of reference and yet the man is very happily married and has a couple of kids. Who knows if he loves her in what my definition of love would be - but she's his wife!

So like KAndre is saying - there are all kinds of love and they don't have to be romantic to experience it.

I do love my kitties unconditionally - but I guess that's different! And I do love my son and granddaughter unconditionally - but I can't say I ever loved a man in quite the same way. (OMG - do you think that's why I have cats instead of a husband???? hee)

(GIGOLO) and I like the scenarios you stated. Makes sense.

[claytonic]

Nah - I think unconditional love can exist between unrelated individuals - most relationships just don't really demand big, spectacular sacrifices. Or people don't see it as unconditional love rather than just crazy - women who have stuck with men through jail, other women, desertion. Others (or even the people involved try to rationalize a lot of it, but a lot of it is just uncondition love - the object just may be inappropriate. And guys? Good lord, some guys will hang on through thick and thin and nothing can shake them. Up to and including murder.

You see, I don't see women who stick with an abusive man as unconditional love, I see it as co-dependency or a personal agenda.

[Couch Tomato]

my 87-yr-old mother is displaying all the signs of a woman hopelessly in love and the object of her affection is a two-timing gigilo who's not even aware he HAS two girlfriends;

ETA: no spelling of 'gigilo' 'gigalo' looks right to me!

LOL Muski...ahhhh :F_05BL17blowkiss: I know this is a big problem for you but I always giggle a little bit. I do hope this is one I'll avoid with my mom.

[djs111]

I'm heading to Fry's on my lunch hour to look for it -- this is the movie where he's a cop and it's about him and his partner, right? I just remember someone raving about it and that it was called something-or-other Express. Will report back... (unless I find something else interesting in Fry's, LOL!).

The movie is really two separate movies, both set in Hong Kong. I love the second story best, Tony Leung is a cop who get involved with the girl behind the lunch counter he usually goes to for lunch. It is a riot, and even though it is not Tokyo, I love the busy bustle-y feel of Hong Kong, reminds me of Japan.

...and BWAH! on the avocados.

Thank you kindly!

Not to belabor a point - but in the Olden Days, when we grizzled old posters lament the demise of snark - that was snark. Snark was usually poking fun at ourselves as fans, not taking cheap shots at others. The situation has pretty much completely been reversed, we can't hurt widdle feewings, but we can take passive-aggressive jabs at Clay, family and friends.

Awwwwww, my grandson just said "Give me a hug, you big lug nut " - I said , excuuuuuuse me? He said "Don't you know a lug nut holds the car together, and if you left, my dad and I would fall apart?"

This was even after I fixed him some lunch!

I haved loved a guy long after it was definitely proven that he is a jerk, and have no idea what I would do if he showed up at my door today. I don't feel like I have any agenda, or anything else, he just turns me on. Of course, he was not abusive or anything like that! I don't think there are really labels that can be applied.

[jmh123]

Honestly, I don't believe unconditional love exists except between mother and child. Sometimes between father and child but never between a man and a woman, friends and family outside the mother and child bond. Think about it. Relationships are always conditional.

My father loved me unconditionally. My mother--not even close. She loves me, deeply, but she just isn't able to feel unconditional love.

ETA: I don't think putting up with abuse is about unconditional love either--I think there's some disagreement here about what that term means. To me it means total acceptance of who you are as a person, loving you for exactly who you are, not for what you do or don't do--it doesn't mean taking a bunch of shit from someone cause you looooooove him.

[Iseeme]

You see, I don't see women who stick with an abusive man as unconditional love, I see it as co-dependency or a personal agenda.

But those are labels we put on that situation. I bet that woman doesn't see herself as a co-dependent. I had another employee who worked for me who was a battered wife. We actually had to sneak her out of the building a few times because the police couldn't get there in time to enforce him staying away from her. And yet when you talked to her about it (while looking at her black eyes and puffy lip) she would declare her love for him and that he just needed (fill in the blank) and he wouldn't do this anymore!

ETA: I would agree with JMH that the definition of unconditional love might be questionable. I guess the reason I'm applying it to the situation I described is that no matter what this asshole did to this woman she would go back to him, make excuses for him, defend him, not press charges against him even though she was in danger of losing her job because of absences, etc. It had more to do with her self-worth than love, but she thought she loved him.

[gbmifan]

I sitting here, probably a little slap happy, because I worked at our High School Post Grad Party last night. I was their from 1pm yesterday to 3am this morning. Came home and had had so much coffee could not go to sleep for another hour.

I have been reading and agreeing with parts of everyone post. If this is true, and I believe it is, I hope that they are happy with their decision. I would not of dreamed of this scenerio for him, but I also think that this did not come out of the blue and was well thought out. He is just an incredible person with a great spirit and an even more incredible voice, that I want the world for him. Sometimes when I see all the hate from the media I hope that he will just not decide to chuck it all in. That would be very heartbreaking. I have decided for me to, just let him whenever he is ready, communicate with us and not get myself all upset over all the media .

[atinal]

...and BWAH! on the avocados.

Thank you kindly!

Not to belabor a point - but in the Olden Days, when we grizzled old posters lament the demise of snark - that was snark. Snark was usually poking fun at ourselves as fans, not taking cheap shots at others. The situation has pretty much completely been reversed, we can't hurt widdle feewings, but we can take passive-aggressive jabs at Clay, family and friends.

I remember when I first found the Clay message boards, I was so struck by the humor that was demonstrated by regular posters. I miss those days when we were able to laugh at us I wonder what happened, was it when outsiders started laughing at us (Cue stereotypical Claymate reference) that we became so sensitive?

[KAndre]

Yep, gotta agree with Iseeme - "co-dependency" or "personal agenda" are external rationalization because society may find the love object inappropriate for whatever reason...doesn't make it any less "love" - just like parents love their little badass spawns of Satan running around annoying me. Almost by definition, they are "loving" regardless of the conditions. It's not necessarily take shit from people, but if who they are is an asshole, and you love them despite them being an asshole, you sometime still love them but can't live with them because they are ASSHOLES - it's still unconditional love. That you would probably rather do without, but still.

The arranged marriage thing has been around a lot longer than the "ooh, we've been dating for a WHOLE SIX MONTHS - which tells me I wanna spend the next 50 years with you!" (which I admit, I really don't get).

Yeah, the death of laughing at ourselves is what had me retreating from other boards - I am an equal opportunity mocker. But if you can't mock yourself with others, or take as good as you get, I think you're an ass and a hypocrit. One of the posters from the CH I miss dreadfully was madcowjj. One of my favorite skits was where she had Clay drop my fat, bitchy, fake hair wearing ass out of a window. Maybe accidentally on purpose. It was FUNNY. I am totally mockable! So is Clay, in so very many ways. Shut up, the ENTIRE eHP - but especially you, PerusingOne! There is STILL a huge element of silliness and downright insanity on this whole Clay fan thingie for me. Too many people take themselves too fucking seriously.

[Iseeme]

I am definitely post-ho'ing today. Sorry. But there's just good stuff to talk about.

I think the boards changed when some of the mods started supporting the right to freedom of speech and your opinion over common courtesy and respect! That is entirely my opinion, of course. Like someone said earlier, it was okay to say just about anything about Clay, his decisions, his family, his hair, his beloved bodyguard, etc. but God forbid you should be snotty to someone else or call them out on anything. My argument was always that I thought I was on a Clay fanboard - an open board where anyone could login and see what his fans were saying about him and that we needed to show him respect more than we need to be nicey nicey to everybody.

I do think you have a right to your opinion and the concept of "freedom of speech" is certainly important - but you can have all that and still be respectful to one another and especially to Clay. There is a big difference in my mind between "Clay's hair looks like shit - is that fag John still doing it?" and "not too much liking Clay's hair these days but I bet it will change in a few weeks!" Just an example! To me, the former comment is totally unacceptable on an open board and I think some of the asshats that love digging at Clay have used fanboard negative comments in their diatribes.

[FearofH2O]

As one of Clay's fans with some maturity (not necessarily emotionally but age wise) I had a Clay dream last night. I hope it will make luckiest feel better as a fellow romantic. Now I never have Clay dreams so maybe this was my way of solving the angst of some fans. I haven't felt bothered by any scenario but then again I'm not a family member.

Clay and Jaymes had a press conference about the impending birth. They were sitting together and holding hands. This was how they were planning on announcing the situation before the gossip blurbs took it away from them. Clay pretended as if no one had heard that Jaymes was pregnant and he was the father. She was wearing a maternity top and it was obvious that it was close to the birth date.

Then Clay announces the coming birth and that he and Jaymes were not married but it was a possibility at some point. He also mentioned that it was a natural conception and there were no problems anticipated with the birth. They were both exceedingly happy.

The end.

I felt very rested when I woke up. :smiles_141:

[Couch Tomato]

We've lost our humor all the way around. I think we've also lost our ability to lovingly make fun of Clay..because he's been through so much with the trash. The jokes about Faye don't do a good job of masking cruel jabs so I can't read that. And of course our ability to laugh at our own devotion to Clay. The apologizing for things Clay does, the excuse making (it's RCA, his mother, his friends, his management, never him because that would mean he's either really uncool or he's not doing what I want him to do or what I think he will do)... I mean despite everything with this latest thing...I think we actually may have found a little humor... maybe it's just to help some deal but I think that's good. The funniest thing I've seen so far is that little picture of the baby with Raleigh and Durham. Chappel Hill indeed. Hilarious.

And I say we because I include myself. I'm sure in many instances I'm not giving someone the benefit of the doubt that I used to.

[luckiest1]

Awww, thanks for trying to cheer me up, Fear. Wish I could have dreams like that! I'm fine, just a little bewildered by some of what I've read on various boards. And I know, I know, it's my own fault for wandering. I just can't fathom some of the reactions, and some of the jealousy (not surprising) and downright hate (quite surprising) I'm reading towards Jaymes. And the anger directed towards Clay...it blows my mind. Makes me wonder if I've wandered into an alternate universe. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything anymore.

In any case, my walk was nice, and what should come up on random on my iPod but the whole audience interaction bit from the Toronto JBT, where Clay spoke with Reiner (who was at our OMWH lunch a few weeks back) and then spoke with Jaymes, called her the "head Claynadian" and convinced her to get up and dance for the 70s. Followed by the interview he gave about OMWH and how the song ALAWH is the "connective tissue" that brought he and Jaymes together. Yep, I'm a romantic, all right.

[claytonic]

You see, I don't see women who stick with an abusive man as unconditional love, I see it as co-dependency or a personal agenda.

But those are labels we put on that situation. I bet that woman doesn't see herself as a co-dependent. I had another employee who worked for me who was a battered wife. We actually had to sneak her out of the building a few times because the police couldn't get there in time to enforce him staying away from her. And yet when you talked to her about it (while looking at her black eyes and puffy lip) she would declare her love for him and that he just needed (fill in the blank) and he wouldn't do this anymore!

ETA: I would agree with JMH that the definition of unconditional love might be questionable. I guess the reason I'm applying it to the situation I described is that no matter what this asshole did to this woman she would go back to him, make excuses for him, defend him, not press charges against him even though she was in danger of losing her job because of absences, etc. It had more to do with her self-worth than love, but she thought she loved him.

Women who say they love their abusive husband do believe they do. And if she finally has enough and leaves him, she will often replace him the same kind of man. . There are a lot of women like that. It is a very complex situation and she's the enabler until she gets the therapy she needs to break loose from her "comfort-zone"..

When my female friends whine about unconditional love, I tell them to get a dog. Now, THAT's true unconditional love. They love you no matter what.!!!

[djs111]

One of the posters from the CH I miss dreadfully was madcowjj. One of my favorite skits was where she had Clay drop my fat, bitchy, fake hair wearing ass out of a window. Maybe accidentally on purpose. It was FUNNY.

Oh, god - I was a mute dwarf who insisted on talking!

Shut up.

Her skits are still in the archives over there, they are worth reading.....Charlie's Angels, Prince Clay - I used to laugh until I couldn't beethe!

[muskifest]

We've lost our humor all the way around. I think we've also lost our ability to lovingly make fun of Clay..because he's been through so much with the trash. The jokes about Faye don't do a good job of masking cruel jabs so I can't read that. And of course our ability to laugh at our own devotion to Clay. The apologizing for things Clay does, the excuse making (it's RCA, his mother, his friends, his management, never him because that would mean he's either really uncool or he's not doing what I want him to do or what I think he will do)... I mean despite everything with this latest thing...I think we actually may have found a little humor... maybe it's just to help some deal but I think that's good. The funniest thing I've seen so far is that little picture of the baby with Raleigh and Durham. Chappel Hill indeed. Hilarious.

And I say we because I include myself. I'm sure in many instances I'm not giving someone the benefit of the doubt that I used to.

Yep...especially the bolded parts for me.

[atinal]

When my female friends whine about unconditional love, I tell them to get a dog. Now, THAT's true unconditional love. They love you no matter what.!!!

anyone want a beeeutiful cairn terrier puppy!!!!!

[Iseeme]

Well, I hope you all find this funny because I was in a deep, deep funk (as you will remember) on Monday and when I read this it made me laugh outloud. I don't remember who said it but I think it came from CH...

"I always knew Clay would have a Foster child!"

Claytonic - you're absolutely right. This was about 10 years ago and I lost track of the woman, but I know he put her in the hospital a few times and last I heard she was still with him! But this quote reminded me of a stupid joke....

When my female friends whine about unconditional love, I tell them to get a dog. Now, THAT's true unconditional love. They love you no matter what.!!!

The joke goes - If a man wants to find out who loves him the most he should lock his dog and his wife in the trunk of his car. When he comes back an hour later - who is the happiest to see him! THAT is unconditional love..... Unfortunately marrying beasties is illegal in all 52 states and most foreign countries!