# 9 He's a man of a 1000 faces and all of them are great to look at.

[Claygasm]

I'll drag the one comment I made on the subject over at the CH here:

Hmmm...maybe it's that I'm a really cynical heifer - but I think one of the reasons that Clay's humanitarism sticks out is because it slightly out of the norm...

Most people aren't the "truly caring". Hell, a lot of people don't do jack shit. Simon, honestly to me, seems no better or worse than that majority of people out there. Aside from what he does on AI, I have no idea what the man does or doesn't. But I can say this. I have heard people I know who live here, who weren't born with a silver spoon, deny "real" poverty in America. Or explain to me no one starves in America - because there is help everywhere, they are just too lazy/stupid/ungrateful to get it. And in many ways, our public policies reflect that attitude way more than Clay's.

I don't expect corporate entities to react in the same way individuals do - I don't think it's possible. And there are very few shows on American television that are not profitable (those that aren't are soon gotten rid of) and yet I don't have the expectation that they are giving up their profits for charity.

Yeah, I think AI, Fox, 19E could do better. Hell, I know I could do better. But as long as they aren't committing fraud and aren't providing false advertising - I think the charities are ahead of the game. I personally can live with that. My cynical nature again, few do something for nothing. Everybody get something of out of whatever they do, if it's only to feel good about themselves or to have someone else feel good about them. That's a real benefit. True altruism is hard to come by and even harder to prove. And doing comparisons as to who's more "altruistic" than someone else reminds me of the horrors of the "true fan/good fan/troll/psycho" arguments.

I once again bow to you, KAndre!

I especially liked the bolded part because you know what? As altruistic as Clay is, even HE doesn't give up all his profits to charity! At least he doesn't look like a guy who took a vow of poverty! He didn't buy that 9000 square foot house or those expensive suits with just his good looks! No one - be it a corporation or an individual - gives up all their profits for charity!

[bottlecap]

No one - be it a corporation or an individual - gives up all their profits for charity!

I agree, but on the other hand, I have no issues with putting the corporation's highly-touted and self-congratulatory contributions into the context of what their profits actually are.

[Claygasm]

No one - be it a corporation or an individual - gives up all their profits for charity!

I agree, but on the other hand, I have no issues with putting the corporation's highly-touted and self-congratulatory contributions into the context of what their profits actually are.

But who gets to decide what is an acceptable percentage of their profits to give? Who gets to decide when they have given enough to deserve congratulations? Isn't the fact that they ARE giving the most important thing? Many do not give at all. And in addition to giving monetarily if IGB raises awareness in a country where so many are unaware and that results in more individuals giving, not just during this fundraiser but for a long time to come, how does that get measured?

I just am having a very hard time understanding why people do not think that IGB and all involved - including the corportations who will be giving millions - are not to be commended. And I have to wonder how the condemnation of it would change if Clay were involved.

[KAndre]

Fair enough - but is it fair not to apply that across the board? I dunno - it's like I can appreciate the parable of the widow and her two mites because it was all she had, but if I were the charity, I think I would look at me giving 10% of my salary and Fox given $5 million (0.00001% of theirs) - I'd take the $5 million. The tithing thing never worked particularly well, I think.

[muskifest]

No one - be it a corporation or an individual - gives up all their profits for charity!

I agree, but on the other hand, I have no issues with putting the corporation's highly-touted and self-congratulatory contributions into the context of what their profits actually are.

WORD. (And what follows is my last contribution to: ) To me, if an entity is going to make concerted efforts to promote its fundraising efforts, its sincerity that we all need to give, then that entity should have no problem being up front regarding its own charitable giving profile. Each of us then can determine whether we're okay supporting that entity. Either it walks its talk and is generous with its own 'disposable income' or it is offering itself solely as a vehicle through which OTHER entities can give, while pocketing embarrassing profits in already fat pockets.

Sorta reminds me of when I worked at a well-known city agency that was always touting itself as a non-profit and regularly bemoaning to the worker bees that it was a continuous struggle to 'meet payroll' and so there could only be 2% raises AGAIN this year, while the upper management continued making inflated salaries and adding decks to their vacation homes. Or the corporations that go publicly bankrupt or report record losses and then we learn of their golden parachutes to CEOs that brought them to the brink of destruction.

Back to the matter at hand: I'm nobody's minion except Clay's; he can do with or to me whatever the hell he wants ...other than him, however, I try to stay on even ground with my associates. And KAndre, you have a very cute non-surreptitious ass, as do I. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Now, I really do think it's time that Muski does what Muski really loves to do. Anybody want to look at some yummy Clay body parts?

Luscious Lips:

Classic Chest

And Chest Hair

Holdable Hands

Beauteous BellyButton

And of course.....

[KAndre]

HA! You can't run out on us now! (See, I told ya we occasionally like beating dead horses!)

Sorta reminds me of when I worked at a well-known city agency that was always touting itself as a non-profit and regularly bemoaning to the worker bees that it was a continuous struggle to 'meet payroll' and so there could only be 2% raises AGAIN this year, while the upper management continued making inflated salaries and adding decks to their vacation homes. Or the corporations that go publicly bankrupt or report record losses and then we learn of their golden parachutes to CEOs that brought them to the brink of destruction.

But the agency was both the worker bees (who apparently did what was needed) as well as the fat cats. The agency is composed of a lot of individuals with a variety of motivations and really, were the worker bees who weren't volunteers there just out of the goodness of their hearts as well? I know some people work as places and take a personal hit out of their income - but there usually is a line they are not willing to cross.

I admit, I like my ass though.

[Claygasm]

Fair enough - but is it fair not to apply that across the board? I dunno - it's like I can appreciate the parable of the widow and her two mites because it was all she had, but if I were the charity, I think I would look at me giving 10% of my salary and Fox given $5 million (0.00001% of theirs) - I'd take the $5 million. The tithing thing never worked particularly well, I think.

I would take the $5 million too and I would be very grateful for it - no matter how well lined their fat pockets were. To not be happy and grateful for that kind of money is looking a gift horse in the mouth.

But I still want to know - who gets to decide what percentage of the profits is good enough? Is there some kind of rule book I am not aware of??

And what the hell is wrong with giving $5 million dollars?

[Couch Tomato]

: )

BWAH!! I must upload that one when I get home.

Don't think we've beaten this topic too much yet though.

Corporations aren't in business to give away money. And they get all kinds of sweet tax breaks when they do give. And whatever sponsor is helping out on IGB.... well I'm sure this isn't their only thing they give to. I don't expect a public opening of the purse of the zero trio (they are wage slaves) but it would be nice if the corp that ownes idol give their bit too. If they do we will hear about it. But I don't want or expect Clay to support TBAF with his own dollars and I don't expect employees of the show to do something over the top to prove they are worthy either.

[atinal]

Interrupting the discussion of the horse whose carcus is now having his skin put back on his body only to be beaten again to say:

I love "Opinions for minions"

and "Muskitell" or how about MuskiTales

[ldyjocelyn]

But I still want to know - who gets to decide what percentage of the profits is good enough? Is there some kind of rule book I am not aware of??

I've never seen one, but I think my own copy would be titled "ldyjocelyn's Guide to Percentages in Giving" (now being sold on Amazon!). In other words, it's gonna really be on each and every individual. Some people will look at a corporation who gives 0.00001% of their profits (no matter the size of the profits) and think that is cooler than anything in the world. Others won't be happy until 1000% of a company's profits are donated to charity, and even then, they'll find something to complain about. And many people (including me) fall in the middle. The choice is theirs.

My feelings about all this is that I'm glad $5 million was donated to charity, but I've also got enough cyncisim in my blood to know that there conceivably could be a LOT more given, IMO. OTOH, I think the awareness that was raised last night, and the discussions that are following (at least here), are probably worth more than the money.

[Divayenta]

One more slap on the old mare's ass- at the end of the day, I'm thankful for ANY kind of consciousness raising. I agree with sis Kandre that the altruistic one upsmanship is looking like good fan/bad fan to me , too.

I also have to throw in one of my pet causes: Bringing down the world birth rate for earth sustainability. We just can't help anybody if populations are booming out of control. Don't get me wrong, help the ones who are already here, by all means.

But empower the girls, the women with education. Eve Ensler of "Vagina Monologues" fame makes that her primary cause. I just got her letter from Haiti where 1 out of 3 women are raped due to patriarchal attitudes and hellish civil unrest. When women have power, the birth rate goes down, ALWAYS, there is less disease, more food, more peace. Just google "V-Day" and read about her organization. She has already built a school in Afghanistan. Her play is shown the world over. I'll quit now for fear of getting jumped on.

Clay content: :TourExcite: I love being surprised by this man. Can't wait to see what he brings us this summer.

And muski, girl, I"ve never seen that "Mr. Happy" shot before. Angela sure does it for him, doesn't she? (see couchie's avi!) She looks like you , Couch. NO wonder you like that shot!

[KAndre]

We share the same cynical blood!

And Lord knows I agree with Couchie, as I ignore the requests for political contributions at my company....

[cha cha trusty]

wow - you all have been busy little posting beavers today! I have just swung by to drop off this blog about last night's show.

http://community.tvguide.com/blog/TV-Show-...-Idol/700140777

and to test this color to see if it matches the color on the board well enough!!

:F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[muskifest]

Diva, babe...

I'll quit now for fear of getting jumped on.

Honey, you should be fearful of me jumping on you, but not for any bad reason...heh. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

and atinal...BWAH! I like MuskiTales, although I fear that it would too easily be mistaken for MuskiTail and that's a whole 'nother non-surreptitious ass.

[playbiller]

Well, well, our DSL lines are back up - I think they are upgrading.

1. tithing/ or just giving. Years ago, I decided to make a concious decision about how much to give and not give unlimited amounts - this way I had enough for the people I want to give to, but that does not exclude sudden donations here and there to a local food bank or contirbuting objects that would help, just not large donations. I think it may sound cold, but that is the way I feel about things. The conveninece of the woman's shelter store down the road make s it a wonderful place to dispose of things when I am finished with them, but don't want to bother selling them - toys, clothes dishes, etc without really depriving me of any income. The red cross is just down the street - so giving blood is no big deal.

2. The most generous people are usually people who don't have a lot. I can actually see Randy and Payula being more sympathetic because they came from now where and saw people struggle, but sometimes it just hardens people into thinking if they did it, so can everyone else. I think the big thing that is not recognized whne people can't get out of poverty is the depression and overwhelmed feelings that surropund them that keep them from escaping poverty. I remember a few things that stunned me about poverty in the city and made me feel that I acted poorly by not reacting. - when Gorbachov vistited NYC, I was working in the city and one day I got on the subway and noticed there were no lurkers, no abject poor - they had disappeared from the city, no one asking for money - 3 days later they returned. Turns out the police rounded them all up and moved them out of the city while the international press would be flooding the area - many people were taken against thier will. It sickened me, but I did not know what I could have done. The second incident took place when I was young and living in pretty much poverty myself - just started working, used all savings to get apartment and furnish it with lawn furniture, roomate had no job and was out of money, so I was paying both out bills - one night I was walking to the path train and passed a small park where there was a family with 5 small children - they were kids talking. Seems like they were up from some country place, out of money and food and were planning to sleep in the part. I did not know what I could, I did not have more than 5 dollars with me (used to live on the edge of nothing) I don't think I could even afford bus fare to take them home with me, certainly not a lot to feed them. I did not even stop to talk to them, just went home. I still feel bad about that so very many years later.

I am going with any money will help people, some corporations are very charitable (old Ben an Jerry's), others not. I can't followthem all. I think the bigest thing about IGB is if it can bring people out of their self invovled mall centered life and seeing the world around us. There are more have not's than haves.

[Totally]

Fascinating discussion. I often wish I had more to give.

Clayzorback Thanks for your take on this board! People treating each other with respect is important to me. I also value tolerance, compassion, and the ability to try to see things from someone else's POV.

Muski You and I do share a love of Clay and graphic sex wrapped together in fiction. One of the things I've always loved about you. It seems this conversation could use a little SMUT to loosen things up.

I'll have to think about that one...got to go pick up the 10 year old from school right now. Later!

[atinal]

Clay-centric, I don't know who came up with that word, or if I even spelled it right, but I feel that a lot of the discussion about IGB centers around this.

Many of the fans who post on the boards are Clay-centric, almost everything in their lives centers around Clay in some way, shape or form. I've been guilty of it at times. Have you ever been having a discussion with your family about something that has nothing to do with Clay, and yet you think of a situation that has happened to Clay or was said about Clay, and you bring it into the conversation. They kind of roll their eyes, but you know it fits in with the discussion. Sometimes lately I've had to bite my toungue, because I've tried to do less of this. (It doesn't mean I still don't think of something Clay related when the topic is not)

Anyway, as soon as this IGB program started to get promo, the Clay-centric stuff started. " Will Clay be a part of it?" "Clay should be a part of it!" "It's Idol, I don't ever want him to do it again, even if it is for a good cause" "Oh, I'm happy any time Clay is on my TV even if it is Idol" just to mention a few. Then when they felt it was a diss, because it didn't seem he was going to be involved, it escalated.

Personally, I've never had a problem with other celebrity charity efforts like, "We are the World", Farm Aid,

Hurricane Katrina telethon, Princess Di-"Candle in the Wind" or the AI charity singles, I don't really have a problem with IGB either. If it raises money and awareness for good causes, fine. If I want to watch and participate I will and if I don't I won't. Seems simple enough for me. I don't have to decide if Simon et al are sincere. I can be proud of Clay's charitable efforts, but don't feel the need to criticize others. I can also undertand those like bottlecap who feel the deep pockets of Fox and the Idol franchise who are making billions off of this show, should support it big time.

By the way, did anyone see the GMA give back spot with the atheletes this morning? Their group has been responsible for raising nearly half a billion dollars for different charitable causes. One pro football player, sorry don't remember his name, has raised enough money to build 67 houses for single moms. Lots of great stuff they are doing too. So, yeah, Clay isn't the only good guy out there. He's just the one we love the most.

[ldyjocelyn]

Clay isn't the only good guy out there. He's just the one we love the most.

*scurries off to thread title suggestion thread*

:F_05BL17blowkiss:

[playbiller]

Other idols that might belong on the show -

Bo gave his old house to a Katrina victim family and played a number of concerts to raise money for the cause.

Ruben has a foundation that helps kids (music Camp and scholar ships) in Alabama - one of the effected states (by the way, 'some people' are just a bit annoyed that he was left off the cover of People with all the other winners being portrayed)

Guarini and DIGarmo are involved with save the music and have testified in congress on it.

A lot of idols do a lot of stuff, sometimes I think that some Clay fans think that Clay is the only person being snubbed here - he may have more high profile charity work, but there are others. Is anyone who works for UNICEF going to represent it? anyone who works for save the children? In a way, I feel it is rude to others taht we think of only CLay, although I do understand it.

[Totally]

Ruben has a foundation that helps kids (music Camp and scholar ships) in Alabama - one of the effected states (by the way, 'some people' are just a bit annoyed that he was left off the cover of People with all the other winners being portrayed)

I felt really badly for Ruben about that People cover. To be the only AI winner left off of it WAS a big diss. They should have left off William Hung, out of respect for Ruben. Of course, I was happy that Clay was included, even if I hated that picture.

Have you ever been having a discussion with your family about something that has nothing to do with Clay, and yet you think of a situation that has happened to Clay or was said about Clay, and you bring it into the conversation. They kind of roll their eyes, but you know it fits in with the discussion. Sometimes lately I've had to bite my toungue, because I've tried to do less of this. (It doesn't mean I still don't think of something Clay related when the topic is not)

Atinal, I was definately guilty of this, and still am, but am much better at keeping my mouth shut. Almost any subject or story brought to mind some incredibly funny, wonderfully poignant, very relevant, and of course equally important story about Clay that of course EVERYONE in the room would want to hear about.

Just Monday, I was watching Oprah, and she had Dianne Warren on talking about all the hit songs she has written. They had Michael Bolton walk on as a surprise and sing a couple of her songs, including "Because You Loved Me". I'm thinking, "Clay just recorded this! Clay should be on there singing this! Or they should at least mention that he just recorded this and how incredibly wonderful his version was! LOL!

Then the same day, Neal Sedaka was on The View, singing some of his hit songs from his new album, and he didn't mention Clay once!!!!!! Can you believe that!!!!!! Isn't Neal all about THE CLAY????? He even talked about some tribute being done for him at Carngie Hall or some such place and all of the important artists coming together to sing his songs for him and named some of them, and Clay wasn't one of them!!!!!!

WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

So I'm as guilty as any TOTALLY consumed Clay fan (thus my name). At least I am aware of it and can laugh at myself....now. I do want for him to be THE biggest recording star EVAH, and for his talent to be recognized and acknowledged by everyone. I am slowly coming to the realization that that will most likely never happen. But hopefully he will be around in a way that makes him happy for a long, long time.

ETA - I guess I look like I sit around and watch daytime TV all day, huh? I TIVO The View, Oprah, and Ellen, and usually get around to watching parts of some of them while I'm cleaning the kitchen or making dinner or feel like vegging.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Totally

[muskifest]

Hee, Totally :F_05BL17blowkiss: ...you are me...as you already know. At least in this aspect of having to bite my tongue all the time so that I don't make LIFE all about the Clay man. I've gotten better, too, but man oh man, it's tough.

I do like to tease Carrie, though. She'll say something like, "That's a pretty clay pot, huh?" And I'll say with big, wide eyes and squeaky voice, "OOOOH! CLAY!" She then rolls her eyes and shakes her head at her nutty mom. If I do the same with Alex, however, the eye roll becomes laced with venom and any verbal response might just be sharp enough to cut. Then I crack up. Then that makes her madder. Then little shit that I am, I laugh louder...

I think you get the picture. :medium-smiley-070:

Lord. As I've said before, parenting my parent is so much more stressful and EXPENSIVE than parenting my kids. Mom just called to say that yet another tooth came out of her dentures (We just got one repaired a couple of months ago---that and an exam cost $365. Her insurance doesn't have a dental plan. Unfuckingreal)...

Well, all I can say is that I hope she doesn't expect me to do anything about it at 8 am tomorrow 'coss I have a date with Ticketbastard, damn it! :angry22:

Edited April 25, 2007 by muskifest

[Totally]

I feel for you with your mom, Muski, but you've been lucky so far with your kids. My kids (especially the one getting married this summer) have been costing us a veritable FORTUNE! College, rehab, weddings, violins....you name it - we've done it!

But I've been lucky with my parents, and they will be able to afford to take care of themselves.

HUGS.

[merrieeee]

Then the same day, Neal Sedaka was on The View, singing some of his hit songs from his new album, and he didn't mention Clay once!!!!!! Can you believe that!!!!!! Isn't Neal all about THE CLAY????? He even talked about some tribute being done for him at Carngie Hall or some such place and all of the important artists coming together to sing his songs for him and named some of them, and Clay wasn't one of them!!!!!!

When is this NS thing in NY? Is it this weekend? Hmm.....curious minds want to know!

[Ansamcw]

Great conversation today...

I think I do agree with Claygasm, Couchie and Kandre...not really surprised that Simon was so surprised. We also must remember the guy is not from the states...he probably just goes to LA mostly for business...its easy to wear blinders when its not really your home.

Totally ...I used to feel like you...want everything the best for Clay...but I have grown to learn patience and to temper my expectations. It just makes life a lot easier. And Atinal yeah I often find myself thinking of giving CLay examples when talking to friends and family. I do have to do a

OMG I am watching Il Divo and they are so bad...this is the first time I saw them and their voices individually are not strong at all. And this one guy is so cheesy!!! YUCK!!! They are defintiely not the three tenors. The blending was also very bad.

Anyway...so far I am really impressed by the star power they have attracted for this show. I wonder about that Celine rumor cos she hasn;t been mentioned...

hee...loved Ben stiller...and now Jack Black they are hilarious..he is good.

Love the Carrie video and rendition of I'll stand by you. Sounds very much like the original..but still great.

eta: I am such a sucker...Carrie made me cry...so far...except for Ryan..I really think this show has been excellent.

[Ansamcw]

So no one else is watchign IGB??? OK...I guess I can report if there is any clay sighting at all...