#42: We're still having fun, and you're still the one!

[bottlecap]

Off to watch the season premiere of Pushing Daisies - love that show!

:nature-smiley-013: Me, too! Clay needs to be on this show. :nature-smiley-014:

cindilu2, I snagged an October calender from your Clayboard profile. I love Mr. Crooked Smile!

[annabear]

Off to watch the season premiere of Pushing Daisies - love that show!

:nature-smiley-013: Me, too! Clay needs to be on this show. :nature-smiley-014:

Oh YES!

[wandacleo]

I would hope that Clay isn't the same person people fell in love with 5 years ago!!!!

People grow and change and become adults in their 20s (well, some take a few decades longer), so they SHOULD be different.

God, I'd hate to think I was stuck at age 23. I was an idiot.

(OK, I admit some people think I still AM.)

Jesus.

[HeidiHo]

Off to watch the season premiere of Pushing Daisies - love that show!

OMG!! Me too!! Please tell me that Olive isn’t gone from the show!! I love her!! But I really love Ned.

Tonight is a good night for TV - Pushing Daisies, Private Practice and Dirty, Sexy Money (my second fav after Pushing Daisies).

I would hope that Clay isn't the same person people fell in love with 5 years ago!!!!

People grow and change and become adults in their 20s (well, some take a few decades longer), so they SHOULD be different.

God, I'd hate to think I was stuck at age 23. I was an idiot.

(OK, I admit some people think I still AM.)

Jesus.

People quote stuff Clay said 5 years ago all the time, as if it should still be true. It don’t work that way. I agree with you – if his outer appearance shows his age, why shouldn’t his inner??

[georgiesmybaby]

:F_05BL17blowkiss: Right back at you Annabear.

I was thinking I'd lurk for a few days, but since I've been caught, I'm one of the new members, although I *think* I registered after that 5AM influx. Can't speak for anyone else, but in my case Fear and From Claygary had both mentioned that they thought I might be happy here at FCA. It's been a long time since I really felt comfortable at any board. I'd been meaning to visit FCA for some time, but RL got in the way.

And then last week happened and though I have tried to be supportive at the OFC, I really just find myself banging my head on my keyboard in frustration. Last night I found myself wishing I could post a huge flashing neon sign with the message "PEOPLE, Where Is the Freakin' Love?" Anyway, for the past few days, I have been reading here quite a bit, and it didn't take me long to realize that I like it here and think I'll fit just fine. You guys rock!

I guess the important thing for me is to affirm that I love the good caring man in that banner up there, and for many reasons. Not the least of which is that he has a voice like no other. And now that we've established my affection for him- what in the heck was he wearing last night? The scariest thing about that outfit, for me, was that his sneakers actually matched so I'm thinking maybe he was really trying. BWAH

In the past I've been more of a reader/lurker than a poster, but look forward to getting to know all of you. *Waves to Annabear, Fear, Claygary...and any other friends I may be missing*

[Couch Tomato]

couchie, I see where it seemed like I was suggesting "don't post unless you can be nice" but that's not what I meant. I want to post over there and I will. I understand that many can't stomach it and that's completely understandable. I was saying that I think Clay was smart to do this and applaud those who continue to try, however fruitless it seems.

No I thought you were saying that people who could shrug off the new reality needed to step back and let others come to terms with it, not just over the next two weeks but however long it takes. Thanks for the explanation.

I couldn't take my mind off this stuff all day long for some reason. It made me think and when it comes to this fandom I stopped thinking 2 years ago and just started enjoying it so this might not come out quite the way it is in my head.

Even though I could absorb the new reality in a "blink of an eye" doesn't mean his not an announcement isn't affecting me too. I'm not one that thinks that the entire world has been fixated on Clay and his entire career has been one diss after another. He's gotten plenty of praise and kudos and he's had success. Yet even I understand that there was an element out there that always seemed to have Clay in their crosshairs and it did get tiring. Yet I found ignoring them so much easier than this. I'm not breezing through the fact that the people with Clay in their crosshairs at the moments are fans rather than nameless faceless asshats.

For me - as one who is not dealing with the homophobia and religious zealots head on (kudos to those that can take it)- they are kind of an abstract to me right now. I am a preacher's kid so I have some understanding of people who have some ingrained belief system. I know they ain't changing over night if they do at all. My father is a preacher and a theologian who studied the bible through and through. He has a Ph.D in theology. And he too believed and lived the parts of the bible that suited him. Growing up I couldn't listen to the devil's music or wear pants. There were prayer meetings at the church and at home constantly. The part of the bible he believed most was that the man was the head of the household. Never mind that in my household, my mom was the stable force and the breadwinner while he went from job to job to job to job or to minister full time to 10 people or to go back to school or take out stupid loans that got us in financial trouble or start a bible school. The parts of the bible about being kind and loving seemed to escape him. Oh I'm sure you couldn't convince an outsider of that. But the family knew the truth.

He could tell you in a moment who was going to hell - and I'm sure if I found him today (cut him out of my life when I was 25ish) he'd tell me clay Aiken was one of those people and he would use words like abomination. Yet I managed to grow up and reject all of that. But so many didn't - they clung to that kind of thinking and passed it on to their children. So from my experiences - I can actually "get" them. I don't agree or respect it and suspect they will never change - but I get it.

I'm mostly struggling with the fact that I don't understand my friends who insist that he is lying about lying. I can understand their emotion but I can't understand that it's so volatile and angry and that it has escaped the bounds of the OFC and he is being called liar all over the internet. I can't understand why there is no empathy for Clay - or if there is, it doesn't supercede their "hurt" or why it matters that they- a nameless faceless fan - is being called an idiot for not having known. And I don't understand why Clay now must address leading them on or why there are lists of every time he did so, down to smiling at a girl or dancing with a fan.

That's why I actually have a harder time with people who are holding on to the anger because they feel duped and they're being called stupid and it's not our fault we believed it. And now he better apologize before I begin to get past this. So this thing has affected me too and if we are going to go out doling out understanding and patience - then a little needs to be directed my way too. They need to understand why I can't be all supportive of them when I see wounding words directed at Clay like he has committed some heinous crime. I challenge anyone to stand up to the scrutiny and ridicule that I'm sure that he knew was to come and still be courageous enough to take that leap. Walk a mile in his shoes or just a few steps.

I'm not saying I won't get over it. I'm not the grudge holding type. But I just want people even here to understand - that yeah I could give a flying pig that Clay is gay -- but that doesn't mean every thing is all peachy on this side of the fence either. The funny part of this whole thing... when he is free to do so-- he'll say just the right thing to heal most of the wounds. I'm just glad that I know he has people in his life that will be there for him to get past the hateful things being spewed at him from all sides - this time, even those he calls his own.

This took me a minute to write so sorry if I'm posting it in the middle of smut or party or pretty pictures. Just wanted to get it off my chest.

[annabear]

And then last week happened and though I have tried to be supportive at the OFC, I really just find myself banging my head on my keyboard in frustration. Last night I found myself wishing I could post a huge flashing neon sign with the message "PEOPLE, Where Is the Freakin' Love?"

I'm there with ya, although I wanted to bang some other people's heads on the keyboard. Just a little.

Anyway, for the past few days, I have been reading here quite a bit, and it didn't take me long to realize that I like it here and think I'll fit just fine. You guys rock!

Absolutely, you will. Yay!

ETA: Good rant, Couchie!

[wandacleo]

Couchie wrote a book. I'm proud.

I've pretty much given up on OFC and the people who just want to get mileage out of misery.

It's impossible for me to understand how any halfway intelligent person can fail to see that a gay in the closet is in a prison of lies. There is no other way to stay in the closet. Isn't it enough that he must have suffered pure hell and torment (witness Paxil)? How can people be so cruel? (Or so frigging self-centered.) I don't understand it.

But, I don't for one second believe it would be this vitriolic if he had admitted to a 5-year affair and two illegitimate children with a WOMAN. And, I don't care shit if I never see any of these moaning bitches again.

So shoot me.

On that cheerful note--WELCOME Georgiesmybaby!!!!

[muskifest]

<snip> I understand that there was an element out there that always seemed to have Clay in their crosshairs and it did get tiring. Yet I found ignoring them so much easier than this. I'm not breezing through the fact that the people with Clay in their crosshairs at the moments are fans rather than nameless faceless asshats.

<snip>

I'm sure if I found him today (cut him out of my life when I was 25ish) he'd tell me clay Aiken was one of those people and he would use words like abomination. Yet I managed to grow up and reject all of that. But so many didn't - they clung to that kind of thinking and passed it on to their children. So from my experiences - I can actually "get" them. I don't agree or respect it and suspect they will never change - but I get it.

I'm mostly struggling with the fact that I don't understand my friends who insist that he is lying about lying. I can understand their emotion but I can't understand that it's so volatile and angry and that it has escaped the bounds of the OFC and he is being called liar all over the internet. I can't understand why there is no empathy for Clay - or if there is, it doesn't supercede their "hurt" or why it matters that they- a nameless faceless fan - is being called an idiot for not having known. And I don't understand why Clay now must address leading them on or why there are lists of every time he did so, down to smiling at a girl or dancing with a fan.

That's why I actually have a harder time with people who are holding on to the anger because they feel duped and they're being called stupid and it's not our fault we believed it. And now he better apologize before I begin to get past this. So this thing has affected me too and if we are going to go out doling out understanding and patience - then a little needs to be directed my way too. They need to understand why I can't be all supportive of them when I see wounding words directed at Clay like he has committed some heinous crime. I challenge anyone to stand up to the scrutiny and ridicule that I'm sure that he knew was to come and still be courageous enough to take that leap.

<snip>

I'm just glad that I know he has people in his life that will be there for him to get past the hateful things being spewed at him from all sides - this time, even those he calls his own.

<snip>

Right on, Couchie! Right the fuck on! :F_05BL17blowkiss: (especially the parts I bolded....)

[ldyjocelyn]

Can someone please give me a recommendation for quality cellophanes or whatever material is used in good protective sleeves for my magazines? Some of the so-called sheet protectors aren't very good and the print sticks to them. And .... where can I get the good stuff? I know you librarians know!

Try this site: University Products, the Archival Suppliers Explore around in the "Acid free boxes" section as well as the "Collectibles Storage" section (where I found the magazine sleeves). I bought several archival boxes and magazine sleeves with them several years ago. Warning, they are not cheap!

couchie, loved your rant. I've been feeling a lot of emotions today. Part of it is because of work; annabear, I didn't throw up, but I cried several times in my office alone. But that's for another time. The other part pretty much as couchie said -- I love Clay and have no problems with the past week at all, but I feel so much frustration in the fandom that it's wearing me down. I too understand where many are having problems, even if I don't like it. I have family members who are staunchly conservative in this regard, and may very likely shun me because I love Clay (whereas they didn't before all that much). And yet, I want this world to see that homosexuals can be loving human beings, and helpful, and smart, and should not be discriminated against. I just can't figure out the way exactly to get those that turn against gays to see that; is there truly a way? I guess that's what I find so frustrating -- I want this world perfect, and I know it can't be.

And now I think I'm going to go cry again.

Hey to georgiesmybaby!

[cindilu2]

Bravo, couchie. Bravo. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

The frustrating-est part for me is that they are basing the 'lying about lying' on a few words in the GMA interview and then extrapolatiing them into oblivion (IMO of course). There isn't even a thought about giving the guy a chance, never mind the benefit of the doubt. After all these years, after all he's shown us - that, to me, is despicable. I don't understand it, I don't like it, and there are people that I will never forgive for it. I don't even care if they come back later having 'reconsidered' or 'forgiven' - it won't change the mean (in every sense of the word) parts of them they've shown through this. Petty? Maybe. Do I care? Nope.

I hope he doesn't enable them.

[justclay12]

Just wanted to come in long enough to say that I agree with all of you. However, I'm having a problem with both the ones who are fixated on his "lying" and those who are hung up over religion and homosexuality. That kind of bigotry under the umbrella of religion makes me sick. I believe it was Couchie who brought up that commercial in CA and due to directv and the west coast feeds, I saw that disgusting ad. Saying they needed to vote for a bill that overturns the right for gay marriages because if they don't gays will have the same rights as everyone else. Heaven forbid. How these people can actually say this kind of garbage without realizing how completely opposed to Jesus' teachings and decency this is, not to mention they hypocrisy, just amazes me. I'm hoping that ad will actually convince most people how hateful and vile these nutcases actually are so that they won't win.

Oh, and since I haven't said it today, I love Clay's butt and everything else about him. I'm with Jaymes in that I think he's pretty perfect, except that there is only one of him. And he doesn't blog enough.

[FearofH2O]

couchie, Wow and thank you. Love your perspective.

georgiesmybaby Congratulations for posting again. Several of us are talking about meeting on Sunday for brunch after the Gala. See you at the Gala.

ETA: I think the longer that thread stays open the worse people are going to feel and the wider the chasm in the fandom. I think Clay meant it as a place to say your peace and move on, not to discuss things endlessly. I haven't been there in many days and won't go there again.

I understand feeling bad but at some point each one has to make her/his own decision. This group decision about "lying" or whatever is dangerous. It perpetuates the sadness and avoids individual thought and conclusions.

Play tells me she is not in the lying thing but has other problems. I hope she comes back here happy and as the emoticon queen once again.

[wandacleo]

Ldyjocelyn

Yell.

Better than crying.

:thtwister2:

[keepingfaith]

I think I'm gaining some insight into the fans who cruised the net to post any and everywhere to defend Clay's sexuality. They did it because their love of Clay depended on him being straight. There was such a manic quality to it that it became infamous. So I suppose it's too much to ask that they would once and for all just shut the fuck up.

[ldyjocelyn]

I hope he doesn't enable them.

Just curious...and I've had this dialog with myself too...but what if he does? Reading Jaymes' rant of a few days ago, with her talking about him caring an awful lot about what the fans think makes me wonder. At this point, I want him to stay true to himself (as he has shown us so much in the past week), but it will be interesting if he does address this. He's really damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, in so many ways.

God, now I'm following circular logic. My brain is tired....

OTOH...so we have something make fun of, although I think it's kind of cool in a very weird way...Cameocat at CV found this: Clay's latest fugly, the gray hoodie. The reason I think it looks kinda neat isn't because of that silly pouch, it just looks like it's really, really soft material. I know I'm alone on this one though....

wandacleo, thanks. Everyone plug their ears, OK?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

OK, I do feel a bit better now.

[Scarlett]

{{{couchie}}} I want to protect him from hatred too. It hurts and it's scary to think of people who want to harm him, hurt him, destroy him. I'm scared of making horrible people shut up or go away because they keep coming back, even worse than before. It doesn't keep him safe from harm. It would be great to form a cocoon of love around him and let him live there forever, and maybe Parker and Jaymes have formed that for him. I think the way to make him safe is to make the rest of the world accept him too -- maybe it's too optimistic. But I hear you on being hurt every time someone says something vile about him. And it feels worse when the hatred seems to grow louder because of something he allowed. I think his way is the way that he'll be better protected in the long run but I have to keep reminding myself of that because like you, I love and cry for him too.

ETA:

I hope he doesn't enable them.

Just curious...and I've had this dialog with myself too...but what if he does? Reading Jaymes' rant of a few days ago, with her talking about him caring an awful lot about what the fans think makes me wonder. At this point, I want him to stay true to himself (as he has shown us so much in the past week), but it will be interesting if he does address this. He's really damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, in so many ways.

I think we're all worried about the same thing. I trust in his judgement, though, because I believe that meeting hatred with hatred destroys everyone involved. It's scary because not hating makes it seem like we're allowing evil to grow stronger. But that's the strange thing about evil -- we enable it by letting fear and hatred grow inside us.

[00lsee]

I would hope that Clay isn't the same person people fell in love with 5 years ago!!!!

People grow and change and become adults in their 20s (well, some take a few decades longer), so they SHOULD be different.

God, I'd hate to think I was stuck at age 23. I was an idiot.

(OK, I admit some people think I still AM.)

Jesus.

We're sorry. Jesus is not available right now, but if you will leave your name and number and the reason for your supplication at the sound of the harp, your prayer will be answered as soon as possible. Thank you. Remember. Wait for the harp.

ldyjocelyn

OTOH...so we have something make fun of, although I think it's kind of cool in a very weird way...Cameocat at CV found this: Clay's latest fugly, the gray hoodie. The reason I think it looks kinda neat isn't because of that silly pouch, it just looks like it's really, really soft material. I know I'm alone on this one though....

No! Not alone. I like it...I want to touch it! It reminds me of the blue shirt of clingy goodness. *sigh*

[Claygasm]

JMO and I know it doesn't mean diddly, but, my theory on those who are off the deep end...........

IGNORE!!!

I swear people like that WANT to get in arguments, want someone to tell how right they are. They don't care that much about preaching to the choir. If no one went over there and engaged them in a "discussion" then I believe they would talk themselves out.

I know it won't happen, but if everyone just ignored them, didn't post defending Clay or mom or apple pie or whatever, I believe it would come to an end much faster. Nothing anyone says will change how they think anyway, so why waste the time and effort and energy to try?

I know in the big world picture if no one ever tried no change would ever happen. But this is not the real world. Heaven knows the OFC isn't!

And I don't worry about Clay thinking they are representative of the fandom as a whole. I think he knows better.

[trophywife]

Couch, amazing rant! In the five years of being a Clay fan the man has never once caused me any grief. Never got angry or cried unhappy tears by any of his actions. I can't say the same for a few members of the fandom, especially this week.

I don't understand their pain and I'm getting to the point, no I am at that point, where I just don't give a shit.

cindilu2, ITA.

"I don't want them to leave feeling that I lied to them, because I didn't."

In my heart I hear at the end "mean to."

And really, does it even matter? He's been through enough. Why can't they let him be happy?

will be.

ETA: keepingfaith, that's an interesting observation. Now I want to listen to ATDW again.

[bottlecap]

ldyjocelyn

OTOH...so we have something make fun of, although I think it's kind of cool in a very weird way...Cameocat at CV found this: Clay's latest fugly, the gray hoodie. The reason I think it looks kinda neat isn't because of that silly pouch, it just looks like it's really, really soft material. I know I'm alone on this one though....

No! Not alone. I like it...I want to touch it! It reminds me of the blue shirt of clingy goodness. *sigh*

I like the grey shirt precisely because of the unusual cut and details. It looks expensive to me, and it makes me happy to see Clay wearing expensive designer clothes.

[keepingfaith]

I've been wallowing in ATDW today and it has been blissful to hear the songs with new ears. Some of the feelings I had about certain songs being meant for the fans, a lover, a family member, have been rearranged.

Now, when I listen to Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word -- I hear it sung to the fans.

Now when I listen to If You Don't Know Me By Now -- I realize why it wasn't released on the album.

Now when I listen to A Thousand Days -- It makes me weak in the knees to hear him sing:

And if the angels came

I'd fight them back to win your soul

And when everything is said and done

They'd go back home

They ought to know, they ought to know

That you're mine all mine

I believe that ATDW was the first album that meant something personal to him, and I didn't get the why of it back then, but I'm beginning to now. For me it has ultimately been satisfying to have the truth stated and to hear things as they are, not as I imagined them to be. I wonder if the second album in development was scrapped and this cover album put out because Clay was beginning to turn the corner on being more open to the world, without explaining it beyond the songs, and using cover songs to subtly convey a new message was kind of brilliant, actually.

[FromClaygary]

Beautiful man, ugly shirt! Maybe bf has been changing too many diapers. Am I the only one that thinks the front of that shirt looks like the front of a diaper?

I actually thought it looked like it might be part of the "equipment" he wears under his costume?

:F_05BL17blowkiss: Right back at you Annabear.

I was thinking I'd lurk for a few days, but since I've been caught, I'm one of the new members, although I *think* I registered after that 5AM influx. Can't speak for anyone else, but in my case Fear and From Claygary had both mentioned that they thought I might be happy here at FCA. It's been a long time since I really felt comfortable at any board. I'd been meaning to visit FCA for some time, but RL got in the way.

And then last week happened and though I have tried to be supportive at the OFC, I really just find myself banging my head on my keyboard in frustration. Last night I found myself wishing I could post a huge flashing neon sign with the message "PEOPLE, Where Is the Freakin' Love?" Anyway, for the past few days, I have been reading here quite a bit, and it didn't take me long to realize that I like it here and think I'll fit just fine. You guys rock!

I guess the important thing for me is to affirm that I love the good caring man in that banner up there, and for many reasons. Not the least of which is that he has a voice like no other. And now that we've established my affection for him- what in the heck was he wearing last night? The scariest thing about that outfit, for me, was that his sneakers actually matched so I'm thinking maybe he was really trying. BWAH

In the past I've been more of a reader/lurker than a poster, but look forward to getting to know all of you. *Waves to Annabear, Fear, Claygary...and any other friends I may be missing*

georgiesmybaby!!! OMG, it's awesomely good to see you here! Weirdest thing....I was thinking about you this morning and almost called you, but I ran out of time. See you in a couple of weeks! I'm in Thursday night, Cheri may have told you. Knew you'd be still with us. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[muskifest]

I like the grey shirt precisely because of the unusual cut and details. It looks expensive to me, and it makes me happy to see Clay wearing expensive designer clothes.

Well, supposedly it's $160 before the sale price of $90 online. I could think of some fun things to do with Clay a man who's wearing such a shirt..... However, for Clay I betcha this shirt would look better in a dark color. I LOVE Clay in dark colors....

Did NOBODY follow that link I gave some time back about Leo DiCaprio and his 'change of heart', etc.? :23: It's so perfect for this situation....almost as if the text was designed to be written NOW---when Clay fans are having problems with something Clay said five years ago.....

And I, too, think the OFC thread's outlived its purpose. I applaud Clay for the good intention of allowing it and I hope that for many it served a purpose. But from what I've seen, it has for some time now only served as a platform for personal grudges and agendas...So I'm at the point where I want to encourage those who truly need time to take it---talk with some friends OFF THE BOARD!, figure some things out...let it simmer a while. THEN try to find some peace and a decision regarding your fan status that you can live with. But...it's all been said (and said and said and said :Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius: ) and I'm beginning to feel that those keeping it going are actually TRYING to create material that can be lifted and used against Clay elsewhere.

And that, my friends, really pisses me off.

And I don't wanna be pissed. I wanna.....I wanna....

Hey, didn't somebody conjure up the visual of the green shirt of clingy goodness?

He was SOOOOO skinny!

[cindilu2]

I said I hope he doesn't - the 'for me' was implied. Whatever he chooses to do (or not) and how he chooses to do it (or not), I'll support, because it's his life and his decision.