#33: Let's all chant "I think it can! I think it can! I think it can!"

[luckiest1]

Fear is trying to talk me into getting an individual ticket, but I don't thinkI can afford being a fan of this guy. It would also include plane fare and boarding for the dog and and and basic disruption of my boring. Then there would be taht auction with things I want but can't afford, etc.

Hee, just sit on your auction paddle. I never placed a bid but I enjoyed that auction probably more than any other live Clay function I've attended! I just hope that I can manage to snag a ticket for my daughter and I when the time comes. Last time, it was a pretty difficult thing to do.

[HeidiHo]

Seems the convo may have moved on from this, but oh well, I have PMS and it makes me want to share. <g>

I don't get it. It's lack of self respect and of others. It's...

...how I see the treatment by the media of people they don't even know--a kind of hit-and-run attitude, a drive-by killing of reputation that people armed with a keyboard and some advertising dollars commit, leaving scarred and sometimes shattered human roadkill in their wake. It truly makes me sick.

I hope all is truly well at the end of this latest media onslaught of disrespect and cruelty. I hope---whatever the truth is---all the people caught in the sights of this particular attack will be able to find a way to make it all well. Including us---Clay's fans.

Basically, seeing the venom spewing against Clay and Jaymes just has me totally disheartened about the state of our world. That's sorta hyperbolic, I know, but unfortunately it has some validity.

This has nothing to do with Clay being a daddy – just want to make that clear. Muski is being general and I am being general.

I feel this way sometimes too, and it’s not just about Clay. In fact, it’s often not about Clay. Sometimes it’s not even about someone’s sexuality. I’ve even gotten a bit weepy about it, because it’s very disheartening. I think that Clay fits in this because he’s made me more sensitive to things that are unconscious to many people. Do people realize how hateful they are? I do hope not. That’s why I say something about it, even when it’s not about Clay. It’s not about being gay – I sincerely believe there is nothing wrong with being gay. I have a gay relative and gay friends. But where I have to speak up is when there is this hateful undertone or blatant nasty tone of voice. I often make comments when that tone isn’t there, because people don’t realize that “harmless” jokes lead you or others down a path that can become nasty. Ridicule. That it’s okay to be nasty. That it’s such a prevalent topic of conversation makes me wonder – are we *really* “okay” with homosexuality?? If it was so okay, like, say, being heterosexual, then would there be such a need to discuss it? Seriously. One thing I have said here and elsewhere is: “If you don’t CARE about it, you shouldn’t so obviously CARE about it.”

I have a very good friend who is very involved in arts and movies, and who has lots of gay friends. Very liberal. We were having lunch with another friend who is also very liberal. The first friend says, “I hate so and so.” I ask why. The first words out of his mouth were: “He’s so GAY.” Suffice it to say, I was shocked. He went on to say “He’s always in my office talking to me and annoying me, asking me about my clothes, and he’s not good at his job” basically listed a whole bunch of reasons why he wouldn’t like the guy (and I know the guy and he doesn’t bother me but I don’t have to work with him). Unfortunately, I started down the whole “how do you know he’s gay” path due to my shock, which wasn’t the way to go. I basically called him out. The other guy rode with me and on our way back to the office, he says: “it really offends me that this guy is obviously gay, and yet he’s married.” I nearly had a fucking heart attack. I then asked him about what sexual positions he and his wife use and how often they have sex. Seriously. I made the point that what someone does in their home is none of their business and why on earth should he be offended – it doesn’t affect him in the slightest and he’s using stereotypes as a basis for truth and using that as a reason to be offended. Can you BE more obtuse? I said that what offends me that I’m friends with two fucking bigots. He protested, and I said when someone says they hate someone and the first thing out of their mouth as a reason why is because they’re gay, then they have issues. Why do you fucking care? My second friend got the whole “tone of voice” thing, but I don’t know if my first friend did. If I made them think, that’s great, but part of me wonders if they just don’t talk about it in front of me anymore. But I hope even that makes them THINK about what they are saying and how they feel.

I have sister who was laughing that Star Jones got divorced. Her comment: “That’s what happens when you marry a gay man.” I said, “How do you know Star isn’t just a bitch?” She said: “I don’t know Star.” I replied: “You don’t know her husband either.” Shut down! She said: “Good point.” She objected to my objection about assumptions and bigotry, of course, saying she wasn’t a bigot, and that simply saying someone is gay isn’t an insult. I said, no, it’s not, but when it’s a JOKE used to ridicule then you are starting down a path. There is a fine line between simple jokes and hate speech, IMO. YOU may mean nothing by it, but the constant need to make jokes about someone is part of what makes it so acceptable in society, along with people caring about it so much. People don’t think about what they’re saying and those jokes have a way of validating tripping on down the path to hate speech, IMO.

In my opinion, when you use ANYTHING about someone, any characteristic real or perceived, in order to either attack them or someone who likes them, then you are being hateful, even if it’s only a joke. Substitute the word “black” for “gay” in many of these jokes or comments and see if it’s still acceptable. If you would still say it.

Anyway, bringing this back to Clay – I feel horrible sometimes hearing what is said, and looking at some of these polls. But then, I remind myself that the key is to NOT LOOK. Who cares what they say – Karma will get them. Then I also remind myself that he’s still selling huge numbers of CDs (relatively), he was a success on Broadway, he’s winning people in the business over one by one. He has many people who clearly love him. I will take cues from him and be happy for him and about him. I try to do my part about the nastiness in our society, little by little, by not staying quiet about it. But it’s not effective if the only time you say anything is when it’s in regard to Clay. I am NOT advocating going to these sites and trying to reason with them – just the opposite. Don’t give them hits – that’s the whole reason for these polls to begin with. Don’t argue with people on the net – they are trying to get into arguments. If that’s how you like to spend your day, then there’s probably no hope. I just try to impact the people in my real life. Maybe if everyone did that, it would spread.

I have to believe that someday the pendulum will swing back in the other direction. It doesn’t matter if Clay is gay or not, what matters is that it really not matter any more. My first friend that I posted about did say something the other day that made me hopeful and I think it’s true: “Racism and bigotry in our society are logarithmically decreasing with every generation.” I have faith that most people are inherently good, that the ugliness you see on the net is a nasty subset of people who have no life and who hate that. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have been the two leading democratic candidates for a while now. A black man and a woman. Democrats were registering in record numbers (and had huge turnout compared to those want to vote for old white guys) in order to vote for one or the other. Regardless of who you are for – this is a HUGE deal. But it took time. Lots of time and work. Decades of people not sitting down and shutting up.

I hope that was at least a little clear....

[Clayzorback]

Clayzorback, if it matters, my remarks to you were never intended to feel disrespectful or disdainful toward you, personally. I was distressed by what you said and how you said it...and only quoted your posts in an effort to communicate WHY.

And felt, in my turn, painfully misunderstood.

Again, as I posted yesterday, if I have misjudged you, please accept my apologies. In the interests of honesty and my own self-respect, that's really all I can say.

Apology accepted and no hard feelings toward you OOlsee. I was not trying to target you specifically.

Ya know, Clayzor, you right, in general people do "stick with their own kind", but honestly there are enough exceptions to that generality for most people not to look at "strange" pairing with shock and awe. And frankly, there's a lot of room between "disrespectful" and "rose-colored glasses". Calling somebody a "downgrade" is disrespectful. It's a MAJOR line for a lot of people, especially a lot of people to whom something like that has been said in real life. I've had a guy actually explain to me that he guessed I was glad that my sister married "up" to a white guy. It did not go over well. It's saying someone is of less worth. Saying you think she's too old for him? Not disrespectful. Saying she's not as big as a celebrity? Not disrespectful. Not as talented, not as cute...all fine, all your opinion, you're entitled to it. But what you said hit a hot button for a lot of people. And individuals responded.

"Prevailing attitude" that Clay is perfect? Bullshit. The closest thing I see to a prevailing attitude is that he has a much better grasp of what's good for him, his family and his career than anyone on the outside looking in. At this point, on most of the subjects that come up, I think he's doing OK. Hell, nothing he's done bothers me as much as the blond thing (which I admit I bitch about) but beyond that - what has Clay or his posse done that requires us to be disrespectful? Called our children ugly? Bitchslapped our mamas? Told us we were fat? Nobody is making anybody wear rose-colored goggles, but ya know what? In general, mostly people who like Clay post here. Therefore most people who post here give him the benefit of the doubt. That's how this works. I personally don't think everyone here likes everything he does (mouse song singing, anyone?) but that fan thing usually means you like a lot of what he does. If you can't stand up to the prevailing wind, that's not our issue. I personally didn't like ANY of the AOL sessions. Read what seemed to be everyone's deep and abiding love, shrugged and went on. Still don't feel forced into liking them. "Prevailing attitude" or no.

Thank you KAndre for acknowledging that this does happen in real life. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know a bit about human kind. No way do I think that people should exclude people, who may not be their peers, but in general it is the way of life.

I will agree with you that "Clay is not perfect" used to not be the prevailing attitude on this board. Or at least it wasn't when I joined here. Members here could keep a toe in reality. They could see the good and the bad in things. Smart woman who didn't think Clay was our savior. No pod people. No conspiracies, You could post you didn't care for something and not be tarrred and feathered. It just seems to have changed for some reason. My problem? Yes, but you know people have feelings, and I am no exception. I've brought friends to this board who I feel I have lost. It saddens me. I thought I had made friends on this board. Apparently not. The cold shoulder on this board is so transparent you can cut it with a knife and I just find it sad. The only time I get any acknowledgement from anyone on here anymore is when I say something they don't like. Never mind all the wonderful stuff I might have been posting. Never mind I am as much a fan as anyone else on here. It has become like vultures waiting for me to say something negative so they can come out and feast.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Thankful4Clay]

Requesting gently, might help. A lot of stations won't add the song until it reaches the top 20. This is what moonhead says over at CV. I know nothing.

[playbiller]

Clay's spins are still increasing on AC:

#29 - CLAY AIKEN - On My Way Here - 87 spins during this 7 day period vs. 78 spins from the last 7 day period for a gain of 9 spins and an audience/million rating of 0.248.

This is GOOD!

So, any way ordinary folks can encourage this? I requested "On My Way Here" one time at my local AC station (which I understand is not where his song would be played yet...not until it is a "hit") and once at a Beaumont station that streams (that was on the list of those playing the song). But I haven't persisted. Should I?

So nice of you to ask

1 Buy a download of the single at Itunes, Amazon and/or Rhapsody for 88 cents

2. increase streaming of Clay at AOL, Yahoo, Myspace, what ever

3. So you don't haveto do the streaming yoursself, add the OMWH AOL video to any website you have, and/or add OMWH to your myspace from Clay's myspace and then increase traffic at your myspace by joining groups and making friends.

4. Join rate the music,

5. check to see if Clay is on your local playlist and if so, feel free to occaisionally request.

[jamar1700]

Well...I, for one, have never said or thought or implied that Clay was perfect. Far from it. I think that he is... as I am...an imperfect human being. That said...I do not choose to enumerate, examine or discuss his imperfections much as I have a hard enough time dealing with my own. *g*

[jmh123]

Fear is trying to talk me into getting an individual ticket, but I don't thinkI can afford being a fan of this guy. It would also include plane fare and boarding for the dog and and and basic disruption of my boring. Then there would be taht auction with things I want but can't afford, etc. I think I get my share of opprotunities seing as how many times I ended up at Spamalot and basically saw Clay every time he has been on a NY stage.

I'm probably not going, and I don't have hotel or plane fare or any of that. And I have a friend coming to stay with me who is going. Once was really enough for me.

Ldyj, I hope your knee thing is quickly resolved. I'm thinking maybe torn meniscus just because I've recently had several friends go through that. Minor surgery takes care of it, so I hope it's that or something even less of a big deal.

FromClaygary and anyone with back problems, I think I posted this once before, but the best position I know for your back is to lie flat on your back on the floor and prop up your knees with pillows under them where they bend so that there's no muscles involved in holding your legs up. Your feet should still be on the floor. Your back is straight, and you're not using your back to support your head or legs. Just lie there and try to relax everything. It helps. Back when I was having back problems I also slept with pillows under my knees.

To everyone who is unhappy for whatever reason, {{{hugs}}}.

[muskifest]

I think the constant critique of the fans is one thing that has driven Clay private. While Clay may be a target for comments, I am not comfortable the way many of his friends and family have become fodder for threads on many boards and likethe way they are discussed here instead.

Now this I can get behind, play.

Heidi...I enjoyed reading your post. And I've basically taken that approach this time around---just say no to the opportunities to have that "the world is going to hell in a handbasket" situations a part of my life. I can only change myself and have influence (if it's a good day and Venus is in Jupiter's rising thing) on my children. Think globally, acting locally---or as Clay Aiken likes to say, "Baby steps"...heh.

Clay perfect? Damned right he is. Perfectly hawt! (Well, except in those Jenna Bush pics...or maybe those ones when he went to a fashion show..oh and that Wicked show he went to in LA...uh....never mind) And he has a perfect voice! (Never mind the sometimes whiny/nasally quality I hear sometimes and get driven to volume-turning-down by...or some of the way he pronounces words---Good grief! Didn't he learn how to speak right in that Southern hick school of his?...and then there are those times when he really sings too much like a girl...) And he's all about helpin' the chillren and whatnot and is going to save the world (well, he DID say he doesn't always pick up Raleigh's poo and he has said he's not politically correct and...)

You get my drift, I hope...

However, there is one aspect of Clay that I refuse to lose my fantasies about....

I'm a private kinda gal, though, so you're just gonna have to guess what that is.....

[Couch Tomato]

Great post Heidi.

[muskifest]

No...now just STOP trying to get me to stay! heh...Hubby just showed me a card his spring softball team (he was the coach) gave him at their end of hte year party and I have to share

On the front is a picture of four cows and each has a bubble above her head with words, as if they were talking...

First cow:

MOOO-chas Gracias!

Second:

Thank you DAIRY much!

Third:

I'm UDDERLY grateful!

Fourth:

Thanks HEIFER so much!

BWAH! I just had to post this---'coss I immediately thought of KAndre when I read the 'heifer' part! :lmaosmiley-1:

So...have a good day, everybody! I'm off to spend a day in the sun, sitting on my fat ass and watching Carrie kick some softball ass! :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[wandacleo]

I am personally a complete and total shit.

How in the hell could I criticize Clay?

[laljeterfan]

Great post by propounder at CH:

propounder

unchained

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had some down moments last night after reading the yahoo piece and just a few of the comments. This morning I'll attempt to answer some of my own questions posted last night.

I've long observed that in RL people sneering at and belittling others, because they dislike someone in particular or they need to elevate themselves, usually criticize and nitpick on some aspects, attributes or competence of the target, where they themselves feel superior in. I've seen dumb attractive people laughing at someone smart but not conventionally beautiful, a housewife relentlessly criticizing her intelligent and successful daughter-in-law's domestic skills, and people judging and looking down on others based on what they sell, not that they can afford these merchandises or services themselves. I attend corporate presentations regularly and was recently rather upset to realize the most intelligent few attendees were laughed at behind their backs for what they wear or "inappropriate" (challenging) questions asked of the presenters. In other words, these critics and sneerers feel it necessary to qualify themselves. Except in bullying situations where the victims are completely powerless, or in congregations of only like-minded people, most criticism and disparaging words invoke some reasoning and debate, even if not out loud. Well well, the anonymity of cyber space takes away any need of qualifying oneself before derogating others. Nobody can see exactly how unattractive or what a failure you are. It is not even necessary to offer any reasoning or rationale for free expressions on line. Just spewing any hostility and calling names to one's heart's content will do. Insecurity and jealousy thus turn easily into pure and unveiled hatred and vileness without a need for disguise. What liberation! Not only can you mock the inferior, now you can fling any filth at those infinitely out of your league. The bullied can be bullies instantly just as they are, without any modification in their physical or mental makeup.

Celebrities, especially, become favorite targets for mocking and slanders without justification because somehow such attacks are pre-justified by virtue of their celibrity status. They put themselves out there, reaping a lot of benefits and some of them behave very questionably in public. Moreover, you want to gossip about some one you and other people "know". Even the not so anonymous such as entertainments news writers and critics take it as guilt free open season for free expression of their own base emotions.

However, though these losers with keyboards may think others can't see their inadequacies and failings in life, their ugliness and pitiableness are blazingly evident. I fully understand why Clay is so targeted. From now on, the only emotion they will ever evoke from me is pity. And I do hope, as advocated by Chardonnay, all you intelligent and articulate people will not, in a sickened and enraged moment, lower yourselves to anywhere closer to their level if you feel the need to educate them somehow.

Nobody can take away my respect for somebody else who has earned it, except the person himself or herself. Contempt is not contagious for me.

................................................................................

...............................................................

Great post, HeidiHo. It is very difficult dealing with the biases and prejudices of others. One of the favorite sayings of my teen-aged son and his age group is the "He's/She's/That's so gay" remark, which they use to describe any person, place or thing that they consider sub-par or lame. Doesn't necessarily even have to do with someone's sexuality, when using it about a person. It's a way of feeling morally superior. I have tried with my son to explain to him why I dislike the saying so much- that it implies that being gay is somehow wrong or bad. He has been reminded that one of his Uncle's (my youngest brother) is gay, and his best friend confided to me that his older brother had told him that he is bisexual, so I have tried to drive it home to both of them that these are still and ultimately just human beings. It's a tough concept to grasp for teenagers- and one many adults have not even figured out.

[alspazz]

One of the favorite sayings of my teen-aged son and his age group is the "He's/She's/That's so gay" remark, which they use to describe any person, place or thing that they consider sub-par or lame. Doesn't necessarily even have to do with someone's sexuality, when using it about a person. It's a way of feeling morally superior.

My tween daughter and her friends use that also. I've discussed with her why it isn't appropriate, but I think it is so pervasive that it is a battle I'm not going to win. I hope it is just one of the societal phrase phases, sort of like Valley-girl speak of the 80's. I look forward to the day when "that's so gay!!" becomes "so yesterday" (one phrase I CAN live with!!)

I tried to watch TMZ the other night, but found it so full of sneering I couldn't stomach it. Is THIS what is celebrated in society now? Good grief.

[keepingfaith]

My point about the primitive folk just discovered is that I cannot say their life is better or worse than mine, it is just different. I have friends who dropped out, I have friends with advanced degrees, I have friends of all ages, colors, genders, shapes, political persuasions, and nationalities. Some work, some don't, some have money and some just don't. I like interesting people with different viewpoints (hence I am used to disagreeing with people without animosity). I have been blessed by the people in my life. I don't really have a social circle, just a bunch of individuals, but when I give a party, it is usually an eyeopener with the combination of people, only a few actually know or like each other. Ha!

Playbiller, I could have written that paragraph about myself.

Heidi Ho, are we broken up? Ansa just swooped in and swept you off your feet? Okay, I guess I can understand that, Ansa has been looking pretty hot to me lately too.

[playbiller]

I am personally a complete and total shit.

How in the hell could I criticize Clay?

Wandacleo is a charming bright and very funny woman who I enjoyed having lunch with - if I see a lie, I will call people on it! So there! Take that!

I approved this message

[ldyjocelyn]

Have there been times when I've felt I could be critical of Clay? Sure. But what did I do? Almost in every instance, on a message board -- I said nothing. Nothing. It's not that I didn't feel like saying something, but I was raised in the "if you can't say anything good, don't say anything" kind of thing. Is that wrong the wrong kind of attitude to be raised in? I would say if it is within your own family, or even your close friends, it could be. But since I really don't know Clay, I don't feel the need to tell him when I think he's done something wrong, or looks bad, or whatever. I might say something, via email, to a friend, but that honestly is the extent of it.

I remember one time vividly when I was growing up. My parents and I were watching the Miss America pageant, and for some reason, my parents were saying fairly benign stuff like "I don't like her hair," "that's not a pretty dress," etc. What did I do? Totally started crying. I knew that these contestants were on TV and couldn't hear a thing, but even my 7-year-old-self didn't like that kind of criticism.

So...that leads me to a thank you for Heidi's post. What she says is to true, ignoring the bad is so much of what I try to do with so much of this in today's society. I'll admit that I'm a bit of a gossip hound regarding celebrities -- I read People magazine while doing my workouts at the gym. And yet, I sometimes feel guilty doing that, because I know this kind of gossip is part of the problem with so much of today's world.

As far as the changing of the tone of the board -- it happens. And then, there's a choice to be made by the individuals who make up the board. There may be a day that I don't like the way FCA is going, and then I'll stop posting there and find somewhere else. It's what I did before I came to FCA full time. Thing is, I like the way it's going right now. It's an interesting mix of people, from all walks of life, with very different attitudes about all sorts of things. I've learned a lot from every single one here, even those who have chosen to move away from the board after posting here for a while.

"FCA -- where fans of Clay come to play." To me, the "come to play" part is what I look forward to more than anything else.

In other news....

Thanks jmh on the information on meniscus. It sounds exactly like what I have, so hopefully I can see my doctor soon to get a diagnosis. Thanks also for the information on how to sleep with a bad back. I'll try that tonight....

Off to plant some flowers. Gorgeous day here again....

kf, we can still be married, right?

[Lotus]

Back in 2005 when Clay was in Vancouver and gave the TV interview to The Standard, when he was asked what he's looking for in a woman and mentioned strong, independent, and passionate about something ... wasn't he staying with Jaymes at her house? I remember that from somewhere.

http://www.clackunlimited.com/clack/TV_App...e/The_Standard/

Raleigh is so cute in that interview.

Hee, I love all these clips you are bringing back, reminding me of. Just watched the Standard interview again, that was a great one. And I do believe that yes, he was staying at Jaymes' house that time. Now I need to go dig out that JBT footage!

It was early in my fandom that I read a blog of his concerning time spent in B.C. It might have been at the time of the interview or at the time of the Foster Gala and it was at Jaymes house. I remember being ticked off in my rain forest west coast chauvinism when he made mention of the view and the desolate islands...desolate? what?

Thanks for mentioning this interview which I just watched for the first time in a long while. It really is one of the best and longest interviews with him. It is interesting to note how different Clay's definition of success is from some of his fans.

He says Failure is putting out an album that is not true to him. Success is putting out an album that represents him in a good and honest way.

[ToldForThis]

Well, think I will try to put some of my thoughts together about this...... hopefully in a respectful manner and without upsetting anyone..... but I am usually out-of-step with most.

I guess i had hoped that Clay would fall in love and marry someone close to his own age, but in a way, I guess I am not too surprised. Of course, we have not heard anything about marriage nor had a confirmation to the gossip.

Anyway/regardless, I am going to do a little armchair analysis here.......

this is all just my OPINION......

....Clay has trust issues, particularly with women and particularly since he has become famous.

....I don’t think he yet sees himself as handsome when he looks in the mirror.

..... I think that Clay has found Jaymes to be a person he can trust, communicate with, trust, share with, trust, love, trust. . and a person that loves him with their whole being.

...... I do think that Clay loves Jaymes...... but I have no idea if he is IN love.

..... it is a shame that age seems to a factor for some (me included).........

Some friends of my parents married..... she was around 20 years older than him. They never had children, but had a very happy marriage and he loved her dearly. This was 50 years ago........ and yes, they were talked about.

[sheiladownunder]

Clayzorback, if it matters, my remarks to you were never intended to feel disrespectful or disdainful toward you, personally. I was distressed by what you said and how you said it...and only quoted your posts in an effort to communicate WHY.

And felt, in my turn, painfully misunderstood.

Again, as I posted yesterday, if I have misjudged you, please accept my apologies. In the interests of honesty and my own self-respect, that's really all I can say.

Apology accepted and no hard feelings toward you OOlsee. I was not trying to target you specifically.

Ya know, Clayzor, you right, in general people do "stick with their own kind", but honestly there are enough exceptions to that generality for most people not to look at "strange" pairing with shock and awe. And frankly, there's a lot of room between "disrespectful" and "rose-colored glasses". Calling somebody a "downgrade" is disrespectful. It's a MAJOR line for a lot of people, especially a lot of people to whom something like that has been said in real life. I've had a guy actually explain to me that he guessed I was glad that my sister married "up" to a white guy. It did not go over well. It's saying someone is of less worth. Saying you think she's too old for him? Not disrespectful. Saying she's not as big as a celebrity? Not disrespectful. Not as talented, not as cute...all fine, all your opinion, you're entitled to it. But what you said hit a hot button for a lot of people. And individuals responded.

"Prevailing attitude" that Clay is perfect? Bullshit. The closest thing I see to a prevailing attitude is that he has a much better grasp of what's good for him, his family and his career than anyone on the outside looking in. At this point, on most of the subjects that come up, I think he's doing OK. Hell, nothing he's done bothers me as much as the blond thing (which I admit I bitch about) but beyond that - what has Clay or his posse done that requires us to be disrespectful? Called our children ugly? Bitchslapped our mamas? Told us we were fat? Nobody is making anybody wear rose-colored goggles, but ya know what? In general, mostly people who like Clay post here. Therefore most people who post here give him the benefit of the doubt. That's how this works. I personally don't think everyone here likes everything he does (mouse song singing, anyone?) but that fan thing usually means you like a lot of what he does. If you can't stand up to the prevailing wind, that's not our issue. I personally didn't like ANY of the AOL sessions. Read what seemed to be everyone's deep and abiding love, shrugged and went on. Still don't feel forced into liking them. "Prevailing attitude" or no.

Thank you KAndre for acknowledging that this does happen in real life. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know a bit about human kind. No way do I think that people should exclude people, who may not be their peers, but in general it is the way of life.

I will agree with you that "Clay is not perfect" used to not be the prevailing attitude on this board. Or at least it wasn't when I joined here. Members here could keep a toe in reality. They could see the good and the bad in things. Smart woman who didn't think Clay was our savior. No pod people. No conspiracies, You could post you didn't care for something and not be tarrred and feathered. It just seems to have changed for some reason. My problem? Yes, but you know people have feelings, and I am no exception. I've brought friends to this board who I feel I have lost. It saddens me. I thought I had made friends on this board. Apparently not. The cold shoulder on this board is so transparent you can cut it with a knife and I just find it sad. The only time I get any acknowledgement from anyone on here anymore is when I say something they don't like. Never mind all the wonderful stuff I might have been posting. Never mind I am as much a fan as anyone else on here. It has become like vultures waiting for me to say something negative so they can come out and feast.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

Clayzor, I'm not a regular member of this board but just wanted to publicly state that you're the only reason I come here-just to see what you have to say. IMO, you are the most interesting poster on this board. I remember the first trip we took together and it seemed like the only thing we seemed to agree on was that Clay was hot and had a beautiful voice. And we talked and discussed the entire 8 hour trip and did not once get angry or upset with each other. These people just don't know you and how colorful and funny you are.

Keep your chin up. I posted on this board for months and I can so relate to the cold shoulder, the few times I was acknowledged, with the exception of you, was when I said something they didn't like. And then I'm reading on here the other night and someone says basically the same thing I did and hardly a peep from anyone and yet I got dogpiled on for saying the same thing, so I guess a lot of it is who you are, not what you say.

[laljeterfan]

Anyway/regardless, I am going to do a little armchair analysis here.......

this is all just my OPINION......

....Clay has trust issues, particularly with women and particularly since he has become famous. ....

I don’t think he yet sees himself as handsome when he looks in the mirror.

I tend to agree with these two statements (well, I agreed with your other ones too, but these are the ones I'm going to address, cause they're close to my heart...)

If I were to wake up tomorrow, and had lost 100 pounds and was suddenly gorgeous, and tons of men were instantly flocking around me, wanting to be with me, although part of me would probably be flattered, another part of me would be a little bit pissed. Since I tend to be a somewhat contrary person (and I think Clay is too), I would be thinking "Wait a minute- I wasn't good enough for you before, but I'm suddenly good enough for you now?" He's made enough jokes of this type for me to believe that it is a real concern for him- which is why I also believed- and IIRC, he actually said in at least one print interview- that he could see himself ending up with someone from "home" that he had known for years.

[Couch Tomato]

I am personally a complete and total shit.

How in the hell could I criticize Clay?

Wandacleo is a charming bright and very funny woman who I enjoyed having lunch with - if I see a lie, I will call people on it! So there! Take that!

I approved this message

Bwah that cracked me up.

[keepingfaith]

I don't get the insider/outsider stuff going on here. Some of the longest, detailed, most from the heart posts I've ever done have been totally and completely ignored. I just assumed they left everyone speechless.

Seriously, I don't post to see how people respond, or if they respond. I post because I have two cents.

LdyJ, how can I marry you if we're twins? Figure that out and we'll talk.

wandacleo ... I've got my eye on you. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[Couch Tomato]

Well I'm not going to try to invalidate your feelings Clayzor, they are yours. My theory is that in a lot of ways the board took hold when many of us wanted to escape and we had something in common so strong that it sustained us for a long time. And while remnants of that still exists, life has moved on. Pod people to me is so 2006. I've let that go for the most part and am focusing on the now. I wonder if we had that one thing in common and now we don't. All I know is that I don't feel like my posting style has changed at all in the last year. Clay is perfectly imperfect. He always has been.

SDU... it's hard to break in sometimes. I understand that. I felt that way at the PROC for an entire year but I kept posting into what I thought was the air. And guess what, I found out later, people were reading and getting to know me even if they weren't responding to me. When I go to my soap boards and it's a tightknit group and I say something oh so witty..hell I don't think I've gotten a response yet. But I'll keep trying if I want to belong. Maybe I'll never fit in...we'll see.

And I also agree that getting to know someone in person gives you a totally different perspective of them. That happened for me last year with Claygasm and this year with keeping faith. Last year I didn't know annabear, this year she was a potential serial killer and now we've slept together. There are some regulars on this board that I don't speak to much but I so enjoy their everyday contributions. I try to convey that to them but may fall short. I think sometimes I'm only thinking that but never tell them directly. That's something I can change. And there are some people pop in now and then I always notice or those that left that I miss. I saw Puddins Joy name at the botton last week and got a big smile. I miss her around here. I didn't tell her that or pm her. Anyway, food for thought.

[HeidiHo]

Heidi Ho, are we broken up? Ansa just swooped in and swept you off your feet? Okay, I guess I can understand that, Ansa has been looking pretty hot to me lately too.

We can still be friends.

<g>

....Clay has trust issues, particularly with women and particularly since he has become famous.

I certainly wouldn’t blame him if this were true. A small part of me might even hope it IS true, because I hate the thought of Clay getting crushed by someone because they used him for something. A little caution is not a bad thing when you are rich and famous.

[Scarlett]

Heidi Ho, are we broken up? Ansa just swooped in and swept you off your feet? Okay, I guess I can understand that, Ansa has been looking pretty hot to me lately too.

*smiles and jiggles self at kf* Are you here on your own?

wandacleo ... I've got my eye on you. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Aww, you already found someone else? *totally crushed*