#46: Avoid the crazy, enjoy the good, and chill.

[FearofH2O]

In the beginning of this fandom Clay was trying to set an example for children. He was prepared to be a teacher of kids with special needs and later to become a school principal. The only pictures we saw were professional photos. The few private photos showed Clay had a devilish side. Now we are getting private pictures of him taken by friends, some of which show him being a little devilish. He can't control pictures that are on the internet. Clay fans will dig out every last one of them.

Any picture is just a moment in time, a fraction of a second, and we have no way of interpreting what they mean. From the little that I have heard about him, he is still a very private and somewhat shy person. Who wants every picture ever taken of one put out for public scrutiny? He has been mocked, teased, called ugly, called sexy etc. I'm sure he avoids pictures unless he can approve them. We have seen him at the stagedoor when someone puts a camera right up in his face, put his hand over the lens. I can't think of anyone who would like to see a photo of the inside of one's nose on the internet. Some fans can be especially brutle and he has no way of knowing who is a fan or not a fan.

After saying that, I do like to see photos of him. If they are ones that are not flattering I don't save them. If they are great I'll save some of them. I think he is a good man who really supports many causes of children. I don't know what conservative means. Politically, morally, emotionally? Politically I'm liberal. Morally I'm pretty conservative. But no matter what I firmly believe that all people were created equal and should be treated as equals, no matter sexual orientation, race, religion, physical or mental disabilities. Clay was gay five years ago, loved children five years ago, prayed to his God five years ago and was a great singer five years ago. So what changed? The internet? If it's the fans, Clay can't help that.

Sorry for the long diatribe. I hope I didn't make too many grammatical errors. I'm no writer.

[luckiest1]

Clay was gay five years ago, loved children five years ago, prayed to his God five years ago and was a great singer five years ago. So what changed? The internet? If it's the fans, Clay can't help that.

[cindilu2]

Clay is not responsible for the fantasies we create around photos and rumours. Judging Clay by that Flock of Seagulls photos just doesn't compute - we 'know' that it was a new-cast-member prank/party. So unfair. Judging him for it because of what other people say about it? Even moreso. Even the Reed rumours, while fun, could be entirely false - and if that turns out to be the case, well that's my bad for getting caught up in them, not Clay's. He has the absolute right not to comment on his private life.

Of course Clay has changed over the years we've known him. It would be rather scary if he didn't. However, I do think that the perception of change has been greatly influenced by the boards - clearly it has for you, Jaycee.

Has he changed fundamentally? Well, from what he's shown us (concrete facts, not speculation or opinion) he's dedicated a large portion of his life to BAF, to Unicef, and now to raising a son with love and honesty. That sounds a lot like the man who has said all along he wants to live a life of service, to be a good person. Personally, my respect and admiration for him grows with each new thing we learn about him, and I suspect if we knew everything he's faced over these five years, I would respect him even more.

ETA: Fear, you posted while I was typing - just wanted to add a big ol' WORD to you.

[tribeca]

I kind of got the vibe from her (Jaycee) when she talked about being conservative it was about all the talk about Clay's family jewels that was brothering her. IMO she just wanted to be heard. Sometimes it isn't we want people to agree with us we just want people to listen to what we are saying.

I just want to say something & I hope people understand this just because someone doesn't like/agree/understand something Clay says or does it doesn't mean that they have a problem with him being gay. I have seen that a lot on MB lately.

[djs111]

Public Service Announcement -

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/16/salmo...ref=mpstoryview

Kellogg to recall products over salmonella concerns

Kellogg officials said Friday they are voluntarily recalling 16 products that contain peanut butter that could be connected to a recent salmonella outbreak.

The Kellogg products to be recalled include Keebler cheese and peanut butter sandwich crackers and Keebler and Famous Amos peanut butter cookies said Kris Charles a company spokeswoman.

According to the Food and Drug Administration, salmonella was found in the Blakely, Georgia, plant of Peanut Corp. of America, which works with Kellogg.

Preliminary investigations suggest that peanut butter and peanut paste manufactured by Peanut Corp. to be used in products like cookies, crackers and ice cream is the probable source of illness.

I was at the grocery store yesterday, and I saw someone picking through the cracker-snacky-thingies that I used to include in my son's lunches - and I thought - well, I was complacent about this latest thing, but who knows where all that commercial peanut butter went?

Jaycee - I think Clay is still Clay. I lurve him. I am totally squicked by some of the stuff by fans concerning actual sexual practices and positions - no matter who with! - but that has nothing to do with Clay, and I quickly learned when to avoid or scroll.

That's just me.

Heeee....down here in Florida, there is a tempest in a teapot about banning nudity and get-ups like a freaking sock on a penis, held there by a piece of fishing line around the waist, on family beaches.

Evidently if you don't wish for you or your children to see someone's junk, you are a PRUDE!!!!! Just like some say if you don't really need to know about Clay's actual sex life in great detail, you are a HOMOPHOBE!!!!

I don't even want to know about my own sister's actual, um, positioning, when she has sex with her husband.

IMO everyone's entitled to what they like, just not entitled to force me to like/look at it too. And make judgements on me if I don't care to see it.

That logic escapes some people down here.

There is not a person in the universe that can affect my Clay fandom but Clay himself. Other fans? or haters? or nabobs of negativity? None really affect me except those fans that I have grown to like and respect - just like in person.

[jamar1700]

just because someone doesn't like/agree/understand something Clay says or does it doesn't mean that they have a problem with him being gay.

But what exactly has Clay done or said for someone not to "like" here?

It's a picture. It's only a picture. Clay didn't publicize it, he might not have even seen it and he isn't doing anything in the picture except standing there. WTH?

[tribeca]

just because someone doesn't like/agree/understand something Clay says or does it doesn't mean that they have a problem with him being gay.

But what exactly has Clay done or said for someone not to "like" here?

It's a picture. It's only a picture. Clay didn't publicize it, he might not have even seen it and he isn't doing anything in the picture except standing there. WTH?

I don't know you would have to ask the person who didn't like it. I was speaking in general.

[cindilu2]

just because someone doesn't like/agree/understand something Clay says or does it doesn't mean that they have a problem with him being gay.

But what exactly has Clay done or said for someone not to "like" here?

It's a picture. It's only a picture. Clay didn't publicize it, he might not have even seen it and he isn't doing anything in the picture except standing there. WTH?

Exactly. The crotch-talk and sexual connotations speak to the poster's proclivities, not Clay's. Letting that influence your opinion of his character is just unfair.

*disclaimer: cindilu2 welcomes crotch-talk and sexual connotation. She has fun with it. She does not hold Clay Aiken responsible for it in any way except for his amazingly large....inspiration. That is all.

[jamar1700]

see below...

[tribeca]

Jamar

I wasn't really referring to your post. I have just witnessed this a lot lately. If you say something all of sudden you don't agree with Clay being gay.

There was an example on YouTube

where 2 people where auguring on a Clay video

one posted

I miss him

and the next person posted

what do you miss? he is the same person just because he is gay

and it went on for a while

when all the person who said the missed him meant that the missed seeing him in concert.

[jamar1700]

I don't know you would have to ask the person who didn't like it. I was speaking in general.

Well...I was sorta speaking in general too, just using the specific example we have been discussing.

My point was that much of what is talked about on the Clay boards is about fan perception and speculation about what Clay may be thinking or doing and very little of it is about the things Clay actually says and does.

edited for brevity...

and again cuz I ain't makin' no sense...

--

Okay...time to go to the store and try to avoid peanut butter...

[FearofH2O]

Jaycee, I wasn't commenting on you as a poster, I think everyone should post what they really feel, but my feelings about Clay haven't changed over the last five years so I was posting my feelings. Scrolling is no problem, you make your own happiness, no one else should affect it. Some like angst others don't. Clay has nothing to do with the boards, except the OFC so I can't blame him for the tone of a message board.

ETA: jaymar said it much better.

[ldyjocelyn]

Not a lot of time here, as it is my husband's "birthday weekend" (it was actually last Wednesday, but we always celebrate as a birthday), but I just wanted to pop in here to thank everyone for trying to stay respectful around here. Jaycee, your feelings are yours, own them. The key to message board posting is to not take everything so personally -- and I've found that from being a fan of Clay Aiken. Heck, I don't take half of what HE says personally.

Also...saw the touring company of Spamalot last night. I'll report more later, but I will say that it's still a hella fun show, but IMO Clay was sorely missed.

jamar, I read that Nerds book a few months ago -- picked it up actually because of Clay. LOL. I thought it fascinating.

[kimiye]

I didn't intend to generalize or stereotype but having lived in Asia for almost 10 years, including attending school where 99% of the students are Asian, they weren't ALL smart. There were those who were average or a little above average but did very well because of the focus and extra-curricular activities placed on academic achievement. Of course, there was always a bunch of wiz-kids that would have done brilliantly, no matter what. (I also attended a small private school in Asia where 99% of the kids were NON-Asian, and let me tell you, the difference was stark).

I'm certain you know so much more about it than I do. Sorry to have questioned your expertise.

I am no expert, and I don't like stereotyping either but generalizing from knowing the Asian members on a small(ish) forum is also stereotyping, no?

Would you like to go back and quote me where I generalized about Asians? I did not. You assumed. All I said was the small group of Asian people on this board that I know are really smart. What I apparently didn't make clear is that it sounded like you were saying they could only achieve well because they had parents who spent money on private schooling. That's what I was objecting to in your post.

I also don't agree with your using "statistics" like "99%" from your years in Asia as supporting evidence for your suppositions about all Asians, or for that matter, about non-Asians. It's just your interpretation of your experience, and not any sort of empirical data.

So let's just say that we have some Asian FCA'ers who fit your example of "wiz" kids and then we can agree on something. But they don't deserve to have you denigrate their achievements because of your assumptions about Asians and private education.

jamar1700, thanks for your link about nerd culture and anti-intellectualism. It was fascinating! Funny how Clay has called himself a nerd, while I lovingly called him a geek from the very first time I laid eyes on him.

[bottlecap]

IMO she just wanted to be heard. Sometimes it isn't we want people to agree with us we just want people to listen to what we are saying.

And that's a very good point to remember. Thank you.

[jmh123]

IMO she just wanted to be heard. Sometimes it isn't we want people to agree with us we just want people to listen to what we are saying.

And that's a very good point to remember. Thank you.

It is indeed, a very good point.

[merryclay]

Those silly pictures made me laugh. That was their dress-up day and it seems the goal was to be a bit campy. Clay surely looks cool.

Sometimes, it bothers me when people act like they want Clay to be this OTT gay guy. I don't think he's anything like that, but he does like to do funny and outrageous things and act like a goober. tm kc. All the people that know him seem to love him. That tells me a lot, and they are terribly loyal to him. Broadway is a bit OTT, anyway.

[luckiest1]

I am totally squicked by some of the stuff by fans concerning actual sexual practices and positions - no matter who with! - but that has nothing to do with Clay, and I quickly learned when to avoid or scroll.

That's just me.

Heeee....down here in Florida, there is a tempest in a teapot about banning nudity and get-ups like a freaking sock on a penis, held there by a piece of fishing line around the waist, on family beaches.

Evidently if you don't wish for you or your children to see someone's junk, you are a PRUDE!!!!! Just like some say if you don't really need to know about Clay's actual sex life in great detail, you are a HOMOPHOBE!!!!

I don't even want to know about my own sister's actual, um, positioning, when she has sex with her husband.

Hmmmm, not sure where you are reading, but I sure haven't seen anything like that here.

OK, off to run errands and all that boring weekend stuff. Ciao!

[jmh123]

Heeee....down here in Florida, there is a tempest in a teapot about banning nudity and get-ups like a freaking sock on a penis, held there by a piece of fishing line around the waist, on family beaches.

I sure haven't seen anything like that here.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist some creative quoting.)

[Couch Tomato]

Sometimes, it bothers me when people act like they want Clay to be this OTT gay guy. I don't think he's anything like that, but he does like to do funny and outrageous things and act like a goober. tm kc. All the people that know him seem to love him. That tells me a lot, and they are terribly loyal to him. Broadway is a bit OTT, anyway.

I think this is the point some are getting to merryclay. Why let what other people believe bother you. What people believe doesn't make it true. The thing I have always found fascinating about this fandom is that there are thousands of different pictures of the man that we have created based on what we saw. And Clay's not drinking, being a role model, for example, to me was ALWAYS his public face. Not that he was the opposite in private but I felt he tried to make that distinction. He always said he took into consideration the hour something aired as another example. What he would say on Jimmy Kimmel would not necesarily be something he would say on Good Morning America which allowed him to do Saturday Night Live or Spamalot. Obviously some of the photos that have come out are Clay in private amongst friends. We DON'T know that guy but to me it seems like the Clay we've heard about and seen for ourselves since the beginning. Honestly, one of the reasons that kept me hooked in the early days was the snarky radio interviews he did. He is outrageous and fun and quick and sarcastic,hilariously funny, and a whole bunch of things that said to me...he's not a goody 2 shows. But again, for some reason he has so many images which brings about so many different expectations.

[claytonic]

Would you like to go back and quote me where I generalized about Asians? I did not. You assumed.

QUOTE: "Interesting concept. However, I must say that absolutely all of the Asian FCA'ers that I know don't just "seem to be so smart". They really are smart. I wouldn't say they're just average people who have parents who gave them a leg up."

How do you know what kind of education was provided for them? Did you ask for details on their education? You are making the assumption here. You've based that assumption on the handful of Asians on this board who actually post. I agree, they are clearly intelligent, but what was your point in mentioning it? If ALL the Asians on this board are smart, does it naturally follow that all Asians are smart? You used them as an example. How many Asians do you know? Have you traveled to different parts of Asia? Have you LIVED in different parts of Asia? Have you been educated with them? Have you lived under the same roof with them? Spoken their language, learned about their values. their culture, their spiritual beliefs? Even with all that, the diversity of Asia is mind blowing and generalizations are impossible. But one thing I know in a general sense, they value education highly and go out of their way to provide it for their kids.

All I said was the small group of Asian people on this board that I know are really smart. What I apparently didn't make clear is that it sounded like you were saying they could only achieve well because they had parents who spent money on private schooling. That's what I was objecting to in your post.

Well, that is YOUR assumption, I NEVER said or implied anything so preposterous and, at best, highly insulting. All I was trying to communicate was that Asians, as a culture, value education very highly, and that is why so many of them seem smart. In fact, some may be average but given every opportunity to achieve their greatest potential, which most people don't. I was talking about their values. Asians also have a reputation for being diligent workers. I have worked in businesses that preferred Asian employees because they were regarded as well-educated, well-qualified and diligent. That's a generalization, yes, based on my experience, that Asians in western countries are highly prized in the workforce.

I also don't agree with your using "statistics" like "99%" from your years in Asia as supporting evidence for your suppositions about all Asians, or for that matter, about non-Asians. It's just your interpretation of your experience, and not any sort of empirical data.

Well, of course it is my interpretation, but it surely adds up to more substance than your summary about about handful of Asians who post at a fan forum. You also misunderstood what I said.. I said 99% of the students from the Asian school were Asians, and 99% of the students in the non-Asian school were non-Asians. And based on that, and the attitude and values of the parents... the Asians, overall, were much poorer yet they worked harder and their parents worked harder to provide them with private tuition. Note, I said private tuition, I never said private schooling for THEM, as YOU stated. I was the one who went to a private non-Asian school, not 99% of the Asian kids I knew. Private tuition is common in many Asian countries, even the poorer Asians I knew ... somehow their parents who didn't have much, paid for private, AFTER SCHOOL tuition to give their kids the edge. Because of overcrowding, some schools started very early in the morning and the kids vacated their classrooms by lunchtime. Immediately after lunch, a fresh group of students would take over the classrooms. I knew of a couple of students who went to one school in the morning, and went to another school in the afternoon, that is like having TWO school days in one day, every day. That is how determined they were to give their kids the edge.

I also know of Asian families who sold their house to send their kids abroad to be educated, believing it was more prestigious to be educated in England, America, Canada or Australia. Perhaps western parents do that too, but I have personally never come across anyone non-Asian who has done it. That was the point I was trying to make, how much value is placed on education. Traditionally, (perhaps that is dying out, I don't know), Asian parents rely on their adult children to support them in their old age. So....making massive sacrifices to educate their kids is, you could say, an investment for their retirement. Seen that way, it makes sense to them to even sell the house, if that is what it takes.

Let me also make it clear.. that I am not generalizing that all Asians are poor and all poor Asians pay for private, after school, tuition so their kids can have the edge. There are plenty of very, VERY wealthy Asians who do the same, but I wasn't talking about them because it is no big deal to give your kids an expensive education when it is no hardship to do so. That goes without saying, but I've said it anyway to ensure there is no misunderstanding. By the same token, there are also poor Asians who for whatever reason, do not pay for special tuition for their kids, they just hope for the best from the school their kids attend. Hopefully, I have covered all bases.

So let's just say that we have some Asian FCA'ers who fit your example of "wiz" kids and then we can agree on something. But they don't deserve to have you denigrate their achievements because of your assumptions about Asians and private education.

Exactly where did I denigrate their achievements? :whatutterclaptrap: How DARE you??! I hope you check first to ensure you know what you are talking about before you make such a hideous accusation like that again.

I am prepared to agree to this... that neither of us seems to be able to understand what the other person was trying to say. Therefore, I hope my point on the importance of education and reading comprehension is, at the very least, valid.

[justclay12]

Wow, some interesting discussions going on since I went to sleep last night. That's what I get for falling asleep, now there will be 6 hours of no posts.

I agree about what most have said about Clay. The fundamentals of who he was 6 years ago are still a large part of who he is today. Part of the changes aren't so much how he's changed, although that also plays a role, but in what we have since found out about him. We only saw a small part of who he was in the beginning, and have since learned so much more about him, and for me, I love him more with each new thing that I've learned about him. He is endlessly fascinating and always entertaining. And he is still one of the best examples of a good, decent man that I've ever seen.

[calurker]

"Clay was gay five years ago, loved children five years ago, prayed to his God five years ago and was a great singer five years ago. So what changed? The internet? If it's the fans, Clay can't help that. "

WOW, FearofH2O.........Those few sentences said it all. All I can say is.. well said. Justclay12, I like the way you think too. Another great mind !!!!!

I realize the above quote is from a post a page or so back (sometimes it takes me a while to catch up) but I was so impressed with the truth of it..... I thought it deserved to be on THIS page too. I do love it when a little light shines through all the crud that fogs some of the boards. On the whole this site is pretty sensible...able to sort fiction and reality......Now , about that picture....hmmm,I like it.

[djs111]

One of the great things I learned when working in Japan was not to say "The Japanese" are anything, do anything, etc. Because it wouldn't be true. Just putting 99% in there doesn't change that.

Somehow the experience in two schools seems to have been extrapolated to "Asians".

My first week of working in the office in Japan - software and testing engineers - swept all of my preconceived notions away. Some people were brilliant, some smart, some dumb as posts, some lazy, some over-achievers.

Just like in America.

I do think Kimiye's experience as an actual Asian might give her a bit of insight.

[00lsee]

Culture? Book learnin'? Genralzashuns?

Ah don't know nuthin' 'bout nuthin', y'all. Excep'n mebbe 'bout them Rednecks. Ah've herd sumpin' 'bout them folks. Unfort'ntly, them's me. Ah mean us. Us is me. We is Redneck. Rednecks. Redneckian.

Aw, hell.

Y'all carry on, tho'. Ah'll jus' go see 'bout the dawgs. Got oursevs a possum hunt t'night, ya knows. Them's goooood eatin'!

/levity