#37: Whenever he's ready, I'm ready for whatever he's ready for.

[aikim]

CG I agree with what you say and yes, criticism is warranted at time in order for one to grow and learn. For me the problem has always been the choice of words and how it is presented and of course; like luckiest1; we all have our tolerance levels and what would seem disrespectful to me would not to you.

I understand disagreeing with Clay's choices but when the disagreement is presented in a way that Clay is characterized as a clueless boob who doesn't know how to run his career or his life, well then I have a problem.

But like you said, variety is the spice of life and the one thing you can say about this fandom is that it is never dull.

Kim

[Couch Tomato]

I agree with your last 2 paragraphs CG. That's why I love this place....to me critical thinking doesn't equate negative talking. That's was one of my peevees elsewhere...if you criticized Clay you were smart and had a brain and if you didn't you kinda were accused of loving everything about him. Drove me mad. I always knew you could have deep interesting and fun conversations without tearing the man and his "people" apart. It was one of our hopes when we started the place. Not saying we're perfect or that it's right for everyone but I definitely enjoy coming here to read every day.

I also agree that what someone else chooses to do with my words is on them...and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Like i said, I haven't changed my posting style because of it BUT I'm also glad that my posting style really isn't inducive? conducive? (damn my mind is failing me LOL) to being used in a destructive way. And although it wouldn't be my fault and wouldn't feel guilty over it ...I would care a great deal.

Jamar..I forgot to tell you thanks for the TAR news? eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee two fo them? yahoo. I love that show.

I also loved the spinach anaolgy.

Break over.

[Ansamcw]

Yup CG...no argument in what you said whatsoever.

I do believe part of owning what you do and say is accepting the consequences of your words and actions. Not everyone will agree and they will say so...thats great. Some people will get offended...that's life. Just move on.

I never worry or change my behavior because of haters. The post of mine that was used by haters was a story about my cait and her reaction to Clay. she is the one other clay fan in the family. Someone took that and other posts by mothers to illustrate how we neglect our children. When someone told me that...I just shrugged. Pond scum's opinion does not matter to me...the people that listen to what he says does not matter to me. Never bothered me and didn;t make me change one bit.

[djs111]

I guess I come from a family and group of friends who are blatenly honest with each other. I think criticism - positive or negative - is very constructive. How can you learn if you don't hear all sides? I want to know, in a respectful way, if someone thinks I have screwed up, look like shit, made a mistake, etc. I also want to know if someone thinks I did great, look great or made a really good decision. I count on the people I love and trust to tell me these things, to give me their honest feedback. I don't always heed what they say, but I always listen. I try to take from the negative lessons to help me improve myself and my choices. If I can't see their point, I thank them and go my own way.

Fair enough, and all that. It's just that I feel you think that those who don't see the negative, or look for the negative, or whatever, are being blatantly dishonest.

(I don't really see the point in telling someone they look like shit, especially when that is kinda subjective and maybe hurtful, but then that's just me.)

Problem here for me, about taking criticism, is that I don't see many people as Subject Matter Experts - all most people can really express is how something does not please them personally.

I don't count pointing out actual mistakes as criticism. And as far as Clay is concerned, IMO it is kind of a stretch to state he has made a mistake just because he says or does something that does not please someone personally.

Example is You Were There. Some stated with great assumed authority that Clay had Made A Mistake. No he didn't. He just sang something that some people didn't like. A lot of other people quite liked the song and/or the performance. Those people were not delusional or refusing to see the mistake, they just liked the performance. And Clay's career has tootled on just fine (except of course to those who think he made a mistake by not singing more rock-ish songs.) And so it goes.

On another entirely O/T note - the acting in Tina Fey's new American Express commercial, where she pulls strings and flashes her card in order to get into the first class lounge with Martin Scorsese, is priceless. (She thinks she is being offered a film role, Scorsese wants to sell her a time-share in Boca Raton.) Scorsese's last line makes me laugh every time! This has replaced the miniature horse whisperer as my favorite.

[Cotton]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, PLAYBILLER AND CAROLINA CLAY!!\

:hb2: :nana: :hb2: :nana: :hb2:

Just home from work so I'm shamelessly stealing this from Gibby!

Happy Birthday, Girls!!!

:F_05BL17blowkiss: :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[Couch Tomato]

Yay the eHP are boarding their planes...OK actually I need to stop talking about them like they are one person. Actually what I love most that all these women are all so unique. Isn't it amazing how Clay and the internet can just bring us all together. Sooooooo KAndre and Scarlett are about to board YAY.

ETA: Gonna miss you merrrieeee, 00lsee, KF, KarenEh and the other missing possee. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[merrieeee]

Boo Hoo Hoo! I'm not with them!

[Gibby]

I love this. Heavy metal monk...62 year old Italian friar proves age/background no impediment to creativity.

There's hope for me yet. LOL

*practices primal scream*

Heee - that was fun to watch! I hope I can still do a primal scream like that when I'm 62!

Yup, we all come from different places and those places determine our perceptions of life around us.

I guess I come from a family and group of friends who are blatenly honest with each other. I think criticism - positive or negative - is very constructive. How can you learn if you don't hear all sides? I want to know, in a respectful way, if someone thinks I have screwed up, look like shit, made a mistake, etc. I also want to know if someone thinks I did great, look great or made a really good decision. I count on the people I love and trust to tell me these things, to give me their honest feedback. I don't always heed what they say, but I always listen. I try to take from the negative lessons to help me improve myself and my choices. If I can't see their point, I thank them and go my own way.

CG, I agree with you about the need to hear all kinds of feedback to learn and grow, and the desire for honesty in relationships.

I remember back 27 years ago when I met my hubby. He was doing a survey for a college class, and one of the questions on the survey was what type of characteristic I found most valuable in people (heeee - he said it was for a class, but maybe he was just hitting on me!). Anyway, I told him that I value honesty the most. It's very freeing to be in a relationship where total disclosure and authenticity is the norm. Hubby and I have had the agreement to be honest with each other since we started dating, and I think it's one of the things that has helped us to have a great relationship all these years. And believe me, that honesty involves both positive and negative feedback!

Having two teenage daughters certainly provides ample opportunity to provide both positive and negative feedback. And at my job at the hospital I literally call the cops on people from time to time, and report child abuse, too. That's pretty darn negative feedback!

But I keep those rose-colored glasses handy, so I can don them again after dealing with whatever kind of crap comes my way. I guess they just make me happy. And they're probably on when I'm doing my Clayfan stuff, too.

Yay for the eHP heading to California! Ya'll have a great time, okay?

[HeidiHo]

I used to agree that there seemed to be a pile on here when someone said something negative, but I’ve not seen that in quite some time. What I DO see is people disagreeing with some negative opinions. Of course you’re allowed to say anything negative you want. But some seem to have trouble accepting that other people are allowed to disagree and/or not understand why you may feel that way. It goes both ways. Now I see a few people who seem to take disagreement much more personally than how it appeared to be intended.

Additionally, using words like “controversial” in response to someone’s response to your negative comment gives the whole discussion much more importance than what it actually has and implies things about people who argue with you – like they’re being mean or something. Maybe the people using those words don’t actually feel that way, but the words that are used on a message board are very important because one cannot hear tone of voice. Using words like controversial, tomatoed, roasting, creamed, etc. gives the impression that the person using those words feels attacked which in turn casts aspersions on the person or persons who were simply disagreeing with their opinion. It also implies things about the user. If you post on a message board, someone somewhere will disagree with you. That’s the way it is.

Some don't ever want to say anything at all unless it's positive....and that's great. But if someone does express an opinion and does it in a respectful way....that should be okay as well.

And I think it is OK. It's inevitable on a fan board that an opinion expressing dislike for something will elicit posts from those who do not share your dislike and want to say that they like it, whatever it is. Those should not be construed as statements that you don't have a right to your opinion. When someone disagrees with you, they aren't saying that it wasn't OK to say it, they're saying they disagree. There's no reason to regard those comments that someone does like whatever it is you don't like as criticisms of you.

Exactly!!

As for someone taking my words and using them against Clay - guess what. Not my problem. Not my concern. I cannot and will not live my life worrying about someone else's actions. If someone did that, guess what. The onus is on them, not me. I am only responsible for my actions and my words and how I say them. If someone chooses to twist them, that is a reflection on them, not on me.

I guess I don’t understand, then, why we keep having these discussions. Why not have the same lack of concern when someone here disagrees with you? Do you perhaps place more importance and more weight (and more emotional investment) on the words of people on this board who disagree with you at times than you do of others elsewhere on the net? And if you have people in your life who are so blunt with you, do you get upset by their “pile on” like you seem to here? I guess I feel that if you were really so blasé about people elsewhere on the net, and have no trouble with a blunt family, then what’s at issue here? Seriously, I’m trying to figure this out. Why not treat disagreement on this board as you do the thought that someone might twist your words on the net OR how you would treat family who are blunt with you?

[Couch Tomato]

I think the way I approach my fandom (not posting style) actually changed quite a bit when I needed it to be a fun escape from real life -- rather than something more intense than my real life if that makes any sense. (that just happened to coincide with the ATDW release - living in emergency rooms made Clay's issues with RCA and all the "theories" trivial IMO) I can't even equate how I deal with things with my family to this fandom. Illness, panic attacks, and depression and even the good side of family life are a totally different thing than following a pop star. I also understand that others take an entirely different approach and enjoy different ways of communicating.

[Iseeme]

Was out for lunch today and the restaurant had CNN on a TV and the monk video was played! It was even more hysterical on a larger screen.

No Clay content. Sorry.

ETA: Well shoot, I didn't mean to kill the thread. How about a pretty picture?

Eeeyeww - and I was just reading on the Yahoo home page where a woman found an 8 ft. reticulated python in her washing machine......they think it came in through the water pipes. Sheesh - how big are her water pipes. Iseeme won't be doing laundry for awhile........

[aikim]

Jimmy Kimmel was on The Insider tonight and was wearing a Clay Aiken Jukebox Tour 2005 hat.

The Insider report was about the ABC press conference where Jimmy imitated a reporter asking questions about Jay Leno. There wasn't any Clay mention on the Insider or in any of the articles. But Starfishy at CB noticed the cap and recognized it. Jimmy also wore the same cap to the 2006 Virgin CD signing.

The screencap is from Clayscience21:

Kim

[annabear]

This video was posted on YouTube yesterday. I hadn't seen it before. The interview was done at the time of Aladdin.

Thank you, Lotus! :F_05BL17blowkiss: He looked so young. And CUTE.

Jimmy.....

[Claygasm]

I guess I come from a family and group of friends who are blatenly honest with each other. I think criticism - positive or negative - is very constructive. How can you learn if you don't hear all sides? I want to know, in a respectful way, if someone thinks I have screwed up, look like shit, made a mistake, etc. I also want to know if someone thinks I did great, look great or made a really good decision. I count on the people I love and trust to tell me these things, to give me their honest feedback. I don't always heed what they say, but I always listen. I try to take from the negative lessons to help me improve myself and my choices. If I can't see their point, I thank them and go my own way.

Fair enough, and all that. It's just that I feel you think that those who don't see the negative, or look for the negative, or whatever, are being blatantly dishonest.

Well, that is not what I think - and not what I said.

Problem here for me, about taking criticism, is that I don't see many people as Subject Matter Experts - all most people can really express is how something does not please them personally.

You don't have to be a Subject Matter Expert to have an educated and valid opinion. Since very few people in this world are Subject Matter Experts on most subjects, then according to this logic, no one should criticize and no one should express their opinions - negative OR positive. See, saying something is wonderful implies knowledge enough of the situation to deem it wonderful. So it seems to me if you don't have to be an expect to say something is wonderful, you shouldn't have to be an expert to say something negative. Works both ways.

I am not an expert on most things, but I sure think I am entitled to my opinions on things - and have the right to express those opinions. They are just my opinions and are not meant to be a definitive analysis.

In fact, just look at the definition of the word "opinion":

o·pin·ion Audio Help /əˈpɪnyən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation

–noun

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Nowhere in the definition does it say you have to be a Subject Matter Expert. In fact, it even states that the belief rests on grounds "insufficient to produce complete certainty".

I don't count pointing out actual mistakes as criticism. And as far as Clay is concerned, IMO it is kind of a stretch to state he has made a mistake just because he says or does something that does not please someone personally.

Example is You Were There. Some stated with great assumed authority that Clay had Made A Mistake. No he didn't. He just sang something that some people didn't like. A lot of other people quite liked the song and/or the performance. Those people were not delusional or refusing to see the mistake, they just liked the performance. And Clay's career has tootled on just fine (except of course to those who think he made a mistake by not singing more rock-ish songs.) And so it goes.

Well, you KNOW I disagree with you here and you most likely know I believe YWT was a HUGE mistake! I will not rehash all the reasons why I believe it was a mistake. Been there. Done that. And that was not the only thing he has done I believe was a mistake. Not only that, I personally believe that Clay thinks some of his choices were probably a mistake - maybe even his decision to sing YWT in hindsight. To think Clay hasn't made mistakes seems a bit unrealistic. Making mistakes is part of being a human being and Clay is very much a human being.

As for someone taking my words and using them against Clay - guess what. Not my problem. Not my concern. I cannot and will not live my life worrying about someone else's actions. If someone did that, guess what. The onus is on them, not me. I am only responsible for my actions and my words and how I say them. If someone chooses to twist them, that is a reflection on them, not on me.

I guess I don’t understand, then, why we keep having these discussions.

Because I like having discussions!

Why not have the same lack of concern when someone here disagrees with you?

Not caring what other people do is not the same thing as having a discussion that involves opposing points of view. I like to try and understand why others say what they say and think what they think. I find that interesting and sometimes even enlightening.

Do you perhaps place more importance and more weight (and more emotional investment) on the words of people on this board who disagree with you at times than you do of others elsewhere on the net?

This is probably true because I do have some kind of social relationship with the people on this board, Many I have met. I have even walked dark streets late at night in search of booze with some! I think people always place a greater importance on the opinions of those they have some kind of relationship with than those they have never heard of nor are in any way part of there lives.

And if you have people in your life who are so blunt with you, do you get upset by their “pile on” like you seem to here?

There is a HUGE difference between someone being blunt and honest with you and a pile on. And while yes, I have felt there have been times I have been piled on here, that is not the case the vast majority of times when opposing opinions have been discussed. For example, I don't feel piled on right now by you and djs. I just feel we are having a discussion!

I guess I feel that if you were really so blasé about people elsewhere on the net, and have no trouble with a blunt family, then what’s at issue here? Seriously, I’m trying to figure this out. Why not treat disagreement on this board as you do the thought that someone might twist your words on the net OR how you would treat family who are blunt with you?

Well, I have no issue here. Not sure why you have decided I do, but I don't. As I said I rarely feel piled on. It has happened - blatantly - and when it does it bothers me. If the people in my real life all got together and ganged up on me, I would feel piled on then too and I wouldn't like it. But it has never happened in my real life, and it has only happened a few times here.

I don't want to treat disagreements here like I would someone who might twist my words on the net. That would mean I don't give a shit about anyone here, and that is not true.

And I do pretty much treat disagreements on this board as I treat family and friends who are blunt and honest with me. When my family or friends are honest with me, it usually involves a good discussion. When there are disagreements on this board, it usually involves a good discussion.

Just to be clear, discussion is defined as follows:

dis·cus·sion Audio Help [di-skuhsh-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.

I have no problem with a good discussion. As I said, I like having a good discussion!

And Heidi, thanks for caring so much that you were trying so hard to understand. :F_05BL17blowkiss:

[Carolina Clay]

Hello, FCA! :F_05BL17blowkiss:

Many thnx for the birthday greetings.

to Playbiller! I hope you had a very special day. :fest09:

Mine was busy -- teaching, writing a blog, etc.; so all is normal .

I usually cruise through this thread late at night. Hope everyone is doing well.

Saltie!

Be back when I can. Have a great weekend!

Caro

[playbiller]

As for someone taking my words and using them against Clay - guess what. Not my problem. Not my concern. I cannot and will not live my life worrying about someone else's actions. If someone did that, guess what. The onus is on them, not me. I am only responsible for my actions and my words and how I say them. If someone chooses to twist them, that is a reflection on them, not on me.

I guess I don't understand, then, why we keep having these discussions.

Because I like having discussions!

Well, I like having discussions, but not the same one over and over and over. Lets just agree to disagree and never mistake a disagreement for an attack again. it is not a pile on if most people dis agree with you it just means your opinion is the minority - welcome to my world.

Now for something about CLay - Yay, about Clay - really on topic!!1, I know there are no topics here, but it is always fun to find something about Clay

A TRIBE is born

Pasadena’s Athletic Garage studio provides a healthy outlet for kids who just gotta dance

When kids think of summer vacation many imagine unending free time, which includes catching up on their favorite TV shows and advancing to the next level of their favorite video games. This is not the case for the 18 members of TRIBE Dance Troupe, the newest hip-hop dance group to form at the Athletic Garage in Pasadena. These kids are using their love for dance as an outlet for their energies and a stepping stone to greater things.

---------------------

“They see what I do and they want to be professional dancers,” says Cain, who is an award-winning dancer and has choreographed shows for various hotels in Las Vegas, as well as for Clay Aiken’s “Invisible” video. “I’ve been there. I know what it’s like to be in this industry,” she says.

------------

Who knew there was a choreographer for Invisible video - or as Clay said - a very expensive home movie.

[Claygasm]

As for someone taking my words and using them against Clay - guess what. Not my problem. Not my concern. I cannot and will not live my life worrying about someone else's actions. If someone did that, guess what. The onus is on them, not me. I am only responsible for my actions and my words and how I say them. If someone chooses to twist them, that is a reflection on them, not on me.

I guess I don't understand, then, why we keep having these discussions.

Because I like having discussions!

Well, I like having discussions, but not the same one over and over and over. Lets just agree to disagree and never mistake a disagreement for an attack again. it is not a pile on if most people dis agree with you it just means your opinion is the minority - welcome to my world.

You know, I think I am the only one to have never used the phrase "pile on" except to say I don't feel like I am piled on!

As for having this discussion over and over, I am not the one who keeps arguing the point, but when someone responds to me, I will respond to them! And others constantly state their opinion on the subject, so I feel I need to keep responding in kind - you know - just to keep things balanced.

It takes more than one person to have a discussion!

Except for those people who hear voices in their heads and have discussions with them............ :2:

[Iseeme]

There was dancing in Invisible? I thought it was just Clay strutting up and down the stage being his cute self like in concert.

Play - I'm still thinking about your "flying sharks!"

I think it will be interesting to see if Clay moves around a little more in concert next time. I know he said doing choreography just means you can learn, but there was alot of dancin' going on that wasn't choreographed......he was moving pretty good. I'm hoping he has a little more confidence in that area and dances a bit. He's got great rhythmic shoulders......You know...these shoulders....

[merrieeee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gcCk-rxoME

Talking of dancing......I love this video!

[justclay12]

Why would Clay have thought singing YWT was a mistake? I'm not in the least religious but I thought it was a beautiful song and I thought Clay was beautiful while singing it. I have no problems with others showing me how their faith effects them, although if they are going to start sobbing and stuff then I'm outta there. Clay wasn't recruiting, he was just sharing a part of his life with us. And I really don't think Clay over analysis things that much. He pretty much does what feels right for him; he may adjust for things that work or don't work, but I hardly think that means he has considered something a mistake. At least that is my take on it.

Now I have to get some sleep. Couldn't sleep at all last night and tomorrow I have to get up at 6am, and I am not a morning person, unless you consider midnight to 2 am. Good night all.

[calurker]

Interesting couple of pages.......there's nothing like reading about discussions and then discussing those discussions and then rediscussing them .

Anyone making margaritas tonight???... that sentence thoroughly dried me out.

[Iseeme]

.......there's nothing like reading about discussions and then discussing those discussions and then rediscussing them .

AWW calurker.....I think I love you! (shhhh - don't tell Scarlett!) Major WORD to that sentence....even if it did make you dry! I don't have a margarita but would a daiquiri do? I might even have a little umbrella around here someplace.

And here's some leftover birthday cake......maybe either Playbiller or Carolina Clay will blow out the candles and we can cut a slice.

[Claygasm]

Why would Clay have thought singing YWT was a mistake? I'm not in the least religious but I thought it was a beautiful song and I thought Clay was beautiful while singing it. I have no problems with others showing me how their faith effects them, although if they are going to start sobbing and stuff then I'm outta there. Clay wasn't recruiting, he was just sharing a part of his life with us. And I really don't think Clay over analysis things that much. He pretty much does what feels right for him; he may adjust for things that work or don't work, but I hardly think that means he has considered something a mistake. At least that is my take on it.

Now I have to get some sleep. Couldn't sleep at all last night and tomorrow I have to get up at 6am, and I am not a morning person, unless you consider midnight to 2 am. Good night all.

I could give you my reason for why I think it might be possible that in hindsight Clay thinks including YWT in his pop tour might have been a mistake, but you would just disagree with whatever I said so I will spare everyone my thoughts on the subject!

Can we hear a big fat YAY!!!!!! :laola0:

Now I an heading to bed.

'Night everyone!!

[Couch Tomato]

I'm starting to get into this gym thing although I'd have to go every day for the rest of my life to recoup the amount I've paid in fees over the years while not going.

My new favorite this week is Grace of God..heh. I feel like I keep rediscovering the songs anew. I'm very proud of Clay for this album.

Now I'm going to work.

Does that DO NOT CALL list thingie still work. I am so sick of telemarketers I can just scream. How do I get off all these lists..don't even want to answer my darn phone.

[treenuts]

Interesting couple of pages.......there's nothing like reading about discussions and then discussing those discussions and then rediscussing them .

Anyone making margaritas tonight???... that sentence thoroughly dried me out.

mind if I join ya

Eeeyeww - and I was just reading on the Yahoo home page where a woman found an 8 ft. reticulated python in her washing machine......they think it came in through the water pipes. Sheesh - how big are her water pipes. Iseeme won't be doing laundry for awhile........

Holy moly, I've had similar fears of just such a thing crawling up the plumbing in my toilet and biting me in the

OT - Yeah for Project Runway starting this week as well as Monk and Psych!!1! The TV drought is over.....for now.

And speaking of "pile ons"...patience, the Clay content is coming....

I wish that CA fella would pile on me sometime!